sjt401

I have an 02 Accord, 4 cyl. Never had any issues til this year when the car started burning oil way too quickly and from there saw errors such as P301 and P302 cylinder misfires, as well as P1259 VTEC failure

Brought it to the local Honda dealer (since a local garage suggested it could be major engine work) and they eventually cited a couple burnt valve seals as the heart of the issue. They did a valve job and since they had the head off we opted to have all seals replaced as a preventative measure. Obviously, this cost a lot of money.

About a month later...maybe less, the check engine light was back on and shortly after, the oil light comes on. Check the stick and there's hardly any oil, so I bring it back to the dealer.

At that point they tell me there's blow by and the piston rings are bad and need to be replaced. They are trying to give me some financial relief...but I really feel they should have found the ring issue in the first place.

I advised that I didn't think they did enough troubleshooting, but they said they did compression tests and a leak down test and could not find any reason to believe the rings were bad. Additionally, my car has less than 70k miles and they had never seen the rings go bad with so few miles.

I'm far from a car expert, but my gut tells me that this should have been caught by the Honda dealership. Thoughts and opinions? It seems like I see on message boards, inc. this one that people have all sorts of ways to test the rings. Does it really seem plausible that the dealership did their due diligence / leak down test and the rings would somehow seem ok?

First post...appreciate any and all feedback. Thanks in advance.

Edit -
They actualyl checked the vehicle 1x before advising on the valve seal issue and performing that work at a later date. At that point they thought there could be a ring or valve seal issue...so their techs had the issue as a potential root cause, yet still did not identify the problem at any point while the had the vehicle for the valve job. At that point they said they did a cylinder leakage test and found exhaust coming out of the intake.

I also noted on that first visit that I always heard a sound like boiling water everytime I drove the vehicle (took only 10-15 mins of driving to faithfully recreate the sound). They said they didn't think that had anything to do with the oil. The sound persisted after the valve job. I found a thread on this forum that sounds like it was the same issue...notice the 2nd post by MiraiZ stating that's it's prob. blown piston rings:

https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-accord-1990-2002-2/boiling-gurgling-noise-oil-2603914/

IowayRUlz

iTrader: (5)

What type of advice are you looking for? Unfortunately, if they said they did the tests, it really comes down to your word versus their's. A lot of dealerships (but not all) are out for money. I would assume your car is no longer under a warranty which isn't really going to help your situation. If they did replace the seals in the head and the compression was good at the time before the valve job, I would almost have to question the re-installation of the head/head gasket as the reason for the blow-by.

sjt401

Yeah...know that was a long back story.

To answer your question, the PSI of one cylinder was less than half of the two neighboring cylinders prior to the valve seals being replaced.

My main question is -
Shouldn't they have figured out that the rings were bad prior to a recommendation to replace all valve seals?

They say since they did the leak down test and that was fine, they had no reason to believe the rings were bad. Searching around msg boards, I've seen several people point out that a leak down won't nec. show a problem w/oil rings. Being a Honda dealer and even thinking that rings could be an issue after taking an initial look at the car, shouldn't they have been on the lookout for ring issues more closely beyond a leak down test that's known to be inconclusive?

Also to be more specific on what I meant by financial relief, they offered to cut the labor time in half for the ring replacement, which is a lot of time. I don't feel that's my issue, but they maintain they couldn't have known about the rings w/the info. they had at the time. The cost of the valve job was significant...but it's become a price point issue. At the price of the valve job alone...I was a buyer...but bringing in the rings too, my choice could've been totally different on how to handle this. As you know, it's major work and we're talking a major down payment on my next vehicle type cost at this point now.

Unfortunately I'm not certain if they are saying that it's the oil or compression rings...but I feel like they should have checked rings more thoroughly considering the huge amt. of oil loss.

I think that if they knew the full extent of the issue, they would have recommended to fix only the 2 burnt seals vs. doing all of them. Doing the rest of the seals incurred a lot of extra unnecessary cost on me IMO.

chikin pickle

Certain F23 blocks suffer from a casting defect that causes cracks between an oil passage and the water jacket. Check your coolant for the missing oil.

I don't think piston rings are your problem. If your car was burning that much oil there would a a very noticeable blue cloud following you around. I have seen honda bottom ends go for 250K easy with no noticeable increase in oil consumption.

As for the valve seals, it's fairly common to perform that sort of work as a preventative measure. If your water pump fails most people do a timing belt while their in there right? Same thing.

If your piston rings are indeed bad, don't bother having them rebuild it. Used JDM motors are a much more cost-effective solution.

clempot911

That should have been a clue to them that there was more to this story than valve seals. I don't think bad rings (which would be highly unlikely in a 70K Honda) would cause the 'boiling water' sound. That usually comes from compression leaking into the coolant either through the block/head/head gasket. Since it was happening when you took it in the first time, I wonder if they ever really did the compression test in the first place vs. just looking at the mileage and your complaint (oil burning) and assuming valve seals...

sjt401

I realized a better description than "boiling water" recently..or at least way to simulate the sound. By filling up a bowl or cup with water in the sink...then turning the faucet on so that the water flow is about as light as it can be while remaining steady...that splashing is real similar to the sound I'd hear every time I come home.

I'm positive they didn't even look into this issue at all since the service person couldn't tell me what it was, and the sound still occurs. One of those things where they typed it on the work order...but since it required actually driving the vehicle somewhere, I don't think they even checked it. The service guy theorized that he didn't think it was oil related and it might be something to do with coolant. That tells me they didn't actually check the sound...the fact that the guy at the desk who isn't a technician is theorizing on what it is vs. giving solid info. from the technicians.

As far as the compression test, I don't really see reason to doubt them on that...unless they were simply making up PSI #'s...which isn't impossible...but I doubt it.

chikin pickle

Did you check for signs of oil and coolant mixing yet?

sjt401

No...they've had the vehicle for awhile as I mull this over and they're supposed to check out the sound closely this week. I also had a coolant flush done at some point and I believe the sound was occurring then. Had that done where I get my oil changed (not with this dealer)...I really hope they would've said something if there was a ton of oil in the coolant...think it would've been impossible to miss.

TOO MUCH TORQUE

first thing.....change the PCV valve
the previous owner probably neglected oil changes and caused the piston rings to become sticky.
You can do a few things
1. run auto-rx
2. remove spark plugs and poor some cleaner(Marvel myster oil is one to mention) onto of the piston and let it break down the sludge/carbon.