double b from wv

first of all, thanks a lot. secondly, what "marks" are you referring too? im taking it to mean the original bolt marks, where it looks like the bolts used to set, before the distro got moved? can you elaborate a little more for me? im pretty sure i have it up to the "marks" part.

as for the EACV, it should be pretty clean. when i did the egr ports i had to take it off. i noticed that the screen in it was pretty much clogged up, so i took it completely off the car, scraped off the screen and sprayed it out with carb cleaner. i shook it out pretty good before i stuck it back on. but hell, i might as well pull it off real fast and make sure it didnt blow the gunk back into it, and also check the seal and mating surface.

but anyway, something was definitely wrong with it prior to all of this mess. i think it was a combo of the egr being clogged up and that fuel injector leaking. im hoping that once this stuff is worked out, it will be pretty good to go. on the bright side, im getting to know it pretty good. the only down side to it being reliable before is that i never had to mess with it, so now, years into owning it, its pretty much a learning experience. i know general knowledge, but each brand and model is different from others, so there is always that hump to get over.

double b from wv

thanks for the help.

first, let me re-state the issue. the car has never really ran fine since ive had it. after cleaning out the egr and sealing with the putty stuff, it would run okay after idling, but half a block away it would start to fall on its face. from there, the power would come and go randomly for the most part. i did notice that after setting at idle for a minute, it would usually launch with (i guess) normal power, but then go to hell very shortly after. and at some times, it would nearly die, or at least no move or really rev... just cut out, but not stall the engine. major bogging. you would have to floor it in that situation, and it would gradually gain speed, and once it cleared 2k or so, you could let off the throttle (like normal position when driving) until it hit the next gear. most of the time, it would still be drivable, just lack the power it should have unless it was over 2-2.5k.

one day it was running like complete crap.... worse than usual. i was examining the putty job and saw that a couple of them were loose and leaking vacuum. i put the RTV on the intake holes that day. this is when i notice the leaking injector. a few days later i got the injector seals and did them. that's when i had to move the injector wire rail to the side, and think that i may have damaged a wire.

alright, its getting close to 3 am, so ill finish up this reply tomorrow. i need to go to bed.

EDIT:

--NEXT DAY--

alright, im back...

i forgot to even mention something. i think it was one day (24+ hours) before the car stopped running when i had left the headlights on and ran the battery dead. i had to jump it off of my battery charger/starter. when connected the charger to battery, put it on 'engine start', and keyed the car, a big spark came from the battery terminal. i jumped out and re-clamped the terminals and the car started on the second try. nothing seemed to immediately stop working, and the car didnt seem to run any worse afterward. ive looked over the fuses and fusable links, and havent found any blown.

double b from wv

i got ya. cleaning off those connectors probably wouldnt hurt. so this ECT, is it the one with the yellow, greasy connector in the pics above? as for the 'broken' one, it actually has two wires going into it, but i only mentioned the red wire to identify it. i think the other is black, or it could just be covered in grime and look that way! lol.

as for the codes, after resetting the ecu, i have not gotten another code. it threw the #5 on the night that it wouldnt start, but nothing since. i mean, if i unplug the EACV and turn the key on, it will trigger a light (never checked specific code though), but if everything is hooked up, it wont give me a light.

sorry for the confusion. by referencing the O2, i was just trying to describe the way it looks... like a mini O2 sensor. you know, metal stem with two wires. the wiring is somewhat similar to the O2 wires, in that they dont plug in with a connector at the 'sensor', but are built into the thing. they lead off down into the harness grommet beneath the distro, but i could not see anywhere they plugged into anything. its like its hard-wired to the harness/computer. i havent pulled the grommet back yet though, so there's a chance that it plugs in elsewhere. just seems odd to have a plug hidden like that.

ill clean things up today and see what happens.

Duane_in_Japan

I just watched your video, its backfiring which means very bad timing, I will guess that its partially due to the dizzy being turned all the way advanced I think you stated, yes, you need to get it timed first. I also would clean the hell out of the inside of the dizzy with parts and brake cleaner and leave the cap off for awhile until all the cleaner has evaporated or blow it out good with shop air.

Try timing it without starting it and see if you can tell where the timing marks are lining up, disable fuel, pull fuse for fuel pump or something.

The red wire plug, the black part is the connector, the switch is brass and its small, once its clean, you will see better, this connector should just pull off by hand. Clean the inside of these oil covered connectors too.

I think the EACV is toast. Try running the engine with the TPS disconnected and open the throttle a little to let more air in at idle, without the TPS being connected the computer will not know that the throttle is open but it will see a different vacuum on the MAP so that alone will adjust fuel delivery and might raise the idle but at least you will see if the engine will run without the EACV. You say fast idle works good cold but then the engine gets worse when it warms up.

double b from wv

okay, i have an update on yesterday's progress...

at first, i thought i was getting voltage between the YEL/BLK & BLK/BLU, down by the computer side of the harness. on the multimeter, the probe came unsoldered from the wire inside the plastic. i said screw it and bought another one that i knew was not messed up.

so i re-tested the yel/blk & blk/blu for voltage on the computer side. got nothing. however, on the yel/blk, i do have battery voltage when body grounded with key on. nothing on the blk/blu though. (just occurred to me that i might try testing the blk/blu for good ground... if its the ground. need to look at diagrams in book.)

i plugged the harness back into the computer and back-probed the connector at the yel/blk & blk/blu (dont like to, but dont have test harness. i was careful) and i get nothing with key off. with the key on, it was giving me 2.x volts.

so at this point, i was confused. so i figured that the best way to test for a short would be a continuity test of each wire individually. so i got a long lead and pushed it into the engine-side connecter for the EACV. i ran that lead to one of the probes on the meter. while in the car, i used the other probe to poke the computer's A harness (unplugged from computer), on the same wire as my lead. with key off, both wires have continuity and almost no resistance. with the key on, blk/blu had continuity and nearly no resistance. however, with key on, the yel/blk no longer has continuity and the resistance shoots up to around 45.xx.

so i thought i might have a short in the yellow/black one. i went to the engine bay and popped open the plastic injector wire rail. i peeled the grommet off down about a foot or so, to beyond the area it would have bent from moving during injector job. the grommet and tape were brittle as hell, but the wires feel soft and pliable. i see no traces of breaks, melts, etc. leaves me more confused. i guess there could be one further down, but seems like wires are in good shape and i dont see why it would break w/o being moved or something anyway.

so at this point, i cracked a beer and let the info marinade on the brain. things usually come a little more into focus after i have time to process everything. so far, it hasnt helped much.

so at this point, i called a local junk yard about a new computer. waiting on them to get back to me. i figure that if i can get one for decent price... $50 or so, ill grab it up and give it a try. my ECU is a PT3, i think. i was looking at some online and at hondapartsnow, and they list the part # differently for the manual and auto. since the TCU is separate, will any OBD1 ECU work, as long as it came from an accord between 90-93? i thought there were some changes along the line to the wiring harness and stuff. does this change the computer, or will any work? (mine doesnt look bad at all though, so idk)

and other than that, ill try cleaning things up, adjusting the distributor, and continue with the wire testing. i was looking at the wiring diagrams in the book, but i was tired and things werent making a lot of sense. ill post some screen shots and maybe someone can give me some input on that.

as for the book, im kind of stumped. all the EACV testing ive been doing is IF there is a CEL #14, which i dont have if the connector is plugged into the valve.

the ECU troubleshooting doesnt really apply either. both procedures for the ECU are for (A) if the CEL never comes on, even when first turning on the key, and (B) if the CEL stays lit after 2 sec, but doesnt blink a code (and the jumper isnt in the blue test connector thing, cause that will make it stay lit). in my case, the CEL appears to be working normally, it just has the whining EACV and wont run. no CEL since i reset after the #5 popped up.

its beginning to get mind numbing!

(just some pics of stuff from yesterday)

































(yellow/black & Black/Blue wires at the A connector)

double b from wv

wiring diagram, if anyone can decipher where the EACV lines go.

looks like YEL/BLK runs to the under-hood fuse box before the sensor, maybe. i might pull that and look for a loose wire or something.

tomw0

"first of all, thanks a lot. secondly, what "marks" are you referring too? im taking it to mean the original bolt marks, where it looks like the bolts used to set, before the distro got moved? can you elaborate a little more for me? im pretty sure i have it up to the "marks" part."

I am talking about the timing marks on the flex plate behind the 'rubber' plug at the bell housing. On the site somewhere was a procedure to set the IGNITION timing. Using a timing light, with the jumper in by the passenger kick panel, you set the timing to the red mark on the flex plate. The white mark is TDC, from what I read here. Look in your book...
However, it does no good to set the spark timing if the valve timing is incorrect. I really would suggest that you get the crankshaft to TDC, remove the rocker arm cover or the top belt cover and check where the marks line up on the timing belt pulley. Static cam timing is essential to the engine running properly, as it ignition timing.
Your engine shows all the symptoms of having the ignition timing retarded. I had the same symptoms on my Ranger truck when I assumed the book was correct about the computer leaving timing at 'fixed' for two minutes after completing tests. I then supposedly would not have to remove a jumper to set 'base' timing. Rong. Dint work.
So, I suggest starting from scratch as far as the cam / belt / distributor timing before worrying about the EACV, or all the more esoteric parts.
Saw your leaking injector post ... Sure hope you cleaned out the ports in the intake where you insert the injectors. Those were pretty well crudded up.
Simplificate and add lightness...
tom

double b from wv

thanks tomwo, im getting the picture.

i went yesterday and basically pulled and checked the eacv, fast idle valve (i think... next to eacv on intake), and a few other things. ill elaborate later, because right now i am going back out to try a computer. i picked one up from a local yard, where i have bought stuff many times over the years, and the guy told me that if it didnt work out, bring the computer back, and he would give me the $60 i paid for it in 'credit' for anything else i might need off that donor car. cool guy, cool deal... that's why i go back!

so the long and short is that yesterday i think i narrowed it to NOT being a wiring problem. computer or something mechanical i guess. im going to try the computer this evening.

one thing though, and i have this thread about it already, is that i was needing to know if an EX computer will run an LX car? they are both OBD1, and PT3's, the only difference is the Axx on the end of the number. the junk guy said that his book listed the ex and lx as having different part numbers for the ecu. ive read online that they all are interchangeable since the only engine difference is the ex's header pipe.

so im going out on a limb here. hope it works in the car, and fixed the problem. im probably not that lucky though.

Duane_in_Japan

Just a little theory for you, dont use an ohm meter on a line with power applied, your multimeter has power built in to run the ohms portion, that is why your readings went way out of range when you turned the key on.

Power to the EACV comes from the main relay when the ignition switch is turned on. You will notice there are actually two relays inside the main relay assy. The first relay on the left is for the fuel injectors, computer and some other items, that relay is closed all the time that the key is in Run or Start position. Disconnect the other items that are not needed for starting such as the EACV and the O2 sensor heater I believe, that could be shorted too. This will eliminate the chance of something else on the same line as the EACV interferring with it, unless there is a short prior to the sensor in question, but you didnt see a short, or you didnt actually test for that. You also get extra air for starting from the Fast Idle Control Valve which I believe works, I think you mentioned somewhere that idle was high cold and came down as the engine warmed up but then started to run bad. You may need to feather the throttle a little to keep it running but you knew this already.

You have to prove out the mechanical timing marks by setting up the engine the long way by using the marks on the flexplate and by pulling #1 spark plug and setting up #1 to TDC (drop a long screwdriver down in there so the piston will push up on it as a visual reference for TDC) on the compression stroke (not the exhaust stroke) and pulling the valve cover to make sure both #1 intake and exhaust cam lobes are not pushing on the valves.

It is possible that the harmonic balencer rubber has broken loose allowing the outer pulley (with the timing marks) to slip making the timing off by any number of degrees, or the keyway in the balencer (crankshaft holds the key) has worn in the balencer making the timing off by a couple of degrees or the cam gear could be damaged making the valve timing off, hence any one of these possibilities will affect valve timing, spark timing and injector timing. The distributor with the three sensors inside are used for spark and injector timing as it is driven by the camshaft directly, so any issue with the timing belt or the timing gears will affect everything else.

Just to throw in an added bonus, if you ever get a code for an injector, change the main relay first.

double b from wv

Duane_in_Japan, again, thanks a lot. i have to read your posts a couple times to catch all the subtleties, but i really appreciate the details and direction.

i just wanted to bring the thread up-to-date today. i've taken a couple days off from the car to clear my thoughts, do some research, make a better plan, and hopefully get this thing taken care of.

but, i did get that computer from a 91 EX automatic. i swapped them and it doesnt make a difference. the good thing is that the owner of the junk yard is a cool guy, and he told me that if the ecu didnt work, bring it back and he'd give me the $60 i paid in credit for other parts on the car. so i didnt totally eat it, which is cool (and why i keep going back to the guy).

so i was looking at diagrams of the wiring, and looking under the hood. as mentioned by duane, i saw that the YEL/BLK wire runs from ECU (A connector, #25 pin) > T's off to B Connector, #1 pin, > U.H. Fuse panel > Relays > 4 or 5 sensors in the engine bay. i was going to ask if anyone knew how to test those relays? which prongs to probe, and what reading i should look for? also, on the diagram below, would you take it to mean that the fuse box is at the larger red circle, where it spits in 4 or 5 directions?

Duane_in_Japan, after turning the distro back to center, it does seem to run a tad smoother than before, but overall, still the same results. the harmonic balancer and keyway were replaced (new parts from dealer) when i did the timing belt. key looked worn, and balancer rubber didnt look so hot either. that's been a few years ago, but the car was only driven for 6 months or less afterward. still, ill look at the rubber just to make sure it didnt separate.

id like to check out these relays first. if they check out, i want to pull the yel/blk wire from the relay to each of the sensors and check for breaks. also plan on checking continuity between ecu and fuse box. if that checks out, then i will be looking at the timing.

its just that when its cold and fires up, it sounds normal, so i really dont think time is the problem. next time im over there, ill try to get a video of a cold start so you can hear it when it actually runs for a minute. but, im not ruling it out, by any means. i would just like to look into the other areas first... esp if im going to have to tear into the engine itself to to so.

heres another diagram from a different source. much simpler to read, i think. ive put red arrows where the YEL/BLK wire begans and ends, and red circles for places to splits off.

double b from wv

oh yeah, i've also betrayed my fellow honda'ers and went and bought this 93 nissan altima to use in the mean time. plus i figure i will use it for work even after i fix the honda.

now, just my luck, after driving the nissan 35 miles in 3 days, i think an injector went out on it. missing like hell, getting fire on the dead cylinder, but plug looks dry. good thing is that the guy i bought it from had a donor car he'd pulled a bunch of parts off of, so i have another fuel rail and set of injectors i can swap out.

still, a few weeks of 'i dont have to work on the car' would be nice for a change. lol.

tomw0

Have you checked the timing yet? Do you want to buy more parts?

My last time. I suggest you check the valve timing. Period. Then check the ignition timing. If you want to FIX your car, you have to do this before replacing parts *****-nilly.

No matter how good a deal you get, it costs to replace computers that don't need replacing. And everything else.
tom

double b from wv

i hear you man, and no, i dont like buying parts randomly. but on the same note, i dont like to buy tools randomly either. but screw it, ill go to wal-mart and buy a damned light.

even though i highly doubt this is the problem, since you guys are cool enough to help me out, ill go against my gut and get the light. ill have to read in the service manual on the details of checking the timing (i havent used one in over 10 years, so it'll be a refresher course for me).

i just think that if you heard it running on a cold start, at fast idle, you might think differently. it runs smooth and sounds good at those times. its not until it cuts down that it starts acting up. i know in the video i posted, it's missing and backfiring, but it doesnt do that until after it's died out for the first time, and i have to crank the hell out of it to get it running again. and it doesnt even do that all the time. plus, ive been under the hood of this car many times, and ive never heard that eacv making the noise it is now. i dont see how timing could make the valve act up, even if the car isnt running. that's why i was wanting to check relays and wiring first, since i have wiring stuff to fix a short or open, and relays are pretty damn cheap.

anyway, ill get the light and let you guys know how it goes.

EDIT: oh yeah, how am i supposed to check the timing with the light if the car barely idles for 15 seconds or so before stalling out, after the fast idle kicks down? after it does kick down, it takes most of the day for it to be cool enough for another fast idle. and even then, it only does that for 30 seconds, tops. does it have to be running smooth and for a short period to use the light?

double b from wv

the super walmart around here doesnt carry timing lights. ill try a parts store tomorrow.

Duane_in_Japan

You should be able to see timing with the light even if the car does not start, but it has to have spark.

When the engine is cold it is in Open Loop Operation, when it warms up it is in Closed Loop Operation. The Fast Idle, Rich Fuel Mixture, the Thermostat is closed and the O2 sensor is inop. In Closed Loop, the Idle is controlled by the computer via some idle control sensors and a clean throttlebody/butterfly valve, the Fuel Mixture is controlled by Feedback from the MAP sensor and the Heated O2 sensor that also should be hot by now and the Thermostat should be open telling the computer that the engine is warm enough to go into Closed Loop thus Leaning out the Fuel Mixture to the correct level.

Along with your dizzy being turned all the way over in the video, you also could be burning lean to cause the misfire, we know it runs good rich/cold.

If the Thermostat did not open or if the HO2S did not heat up then it is possible that the computer would stay in Open Loop making the Fuel Mixture Rich and you would not have a misfire I would not think.

Clamp off the fuel return hose after the fuel rail where it goes back to the gas tank and see if the problem goes away, dont do it for long. This is called Dead Head Pressure and it is designed to test for poor injector spray patterns or a weak fuel pump or a clogged fuel filter.

Now I am done thinking out loud, I think you are correct about ignition timing and mechanical timing, but everybody could use a cheap timing light in their toolbox. You can charge your buddy $5 the next time you help him.

tomw0

I don't mean to tell you go buy a timing light. You can set the timing using the static method I suggested w/o a timing light. I just want you to be absolutely sure that the VALVE timing is right and the ignition timing is right before you replace any other parts.
Throwing a computer 'just because' is not good trouble shooting technique. Ditto all the other parts. Duane-in-Nippon mentioned open and closed loop operation. In most systems, the ignition timing is 'fixed' in open loop, and comes under the control of the computer in closed-loop operation. The system depends upon the open loop timing to be correct and on the spot so that when it goes closed-loop, it varies the timing from 'where it is right now'. If the base, static, open loop timing is wrong, the closed loop timing will be even worse. That is the problem I mentioned about my truck. The 'manual' stated timing would be un-molested for two minutes after you went into 'test' mode. I tried to, and did, adjust the timing to 'base 10BTDC' using that 'information'. It was incorrect, or my two minutes is not their two minutes. The timing was miserably retarded, no offense to those who have limitations on their mental...

tom

double b from wv

okay, so you two obviously know more about this type of thing than i do, so im just going to do what you suggest, even if i dont fully understand the 'why' or 'how' it would suddenly make the car inoperable (unless it slipped the t-belt). as for the light, screw it, i will probably need it again at some point down the line, so i dont really mind buying one. sadly, its not like $20 is a whole lot of money these days anyway... maybe a 12 pack and couple packs of smokes, if i catch a sale. i can cut back for a few days!

im leaving tonight to go out of town though, so it could be up to a week before i make it back. but when i get back over there to work on it, im going to pull the timing covers and verify or repair the cam/valve timing. once that is done, ill go to the ignition timing and set it. its bound to be off some, since it was advanced and i just eyed it back to what looked like the old washer locations.

from the book, the timing procedure seems pretty standard, other than there is the rubber plug and hole instead of shooting the crank pulley area. but i was wondering whether i would need to see the colors on the plate, or if there will be hash marks on it that i can use regardless of dust and stuff? also, what is the white mark for?

okay, so ill let you know how things went when i get back and take a look at it. ill check back here before i do it though, so if there is anything im missing, please let me know.

tomw0

Well, did you make it back to town? It's only been a few months...
t

brakedrum

If you're still checking this thread, Double b, what yours is doing sounds exactly like what mine is doing. Not sure if you've looked at the Throttle Position Sensor but it might be responsible. I'm in the process of trying to test the voltage on it to either accuse it officially or rule it out.

92 accord CT

Is there anywhere I can find a write up on,changing the timing belt?

double b from wv

yeah, i made it back. havent messed with the car since last fall... busy with work, and the cold weather isnt too encouraging either. im going to get back to it when it warms up... hopefully soon.

JaiYu

Been reading this thread for 20 minutes. Please fix your gutless ride and post results. Good luck

hoagy106

hello everyone. I have been reading this and it sounds kinda like what mine is doing. I am new to this so i cant post a thread yet, So i will post it on here in hopes that someone can help me out, mine is a 91 honda accord se. Starts everytime runs good until it reaches operating temp. About 7 min in driveway. Once it does it starts bogging and rpms drop down to 500ish. It does pretty much the same as this guy on the video he did after it is warmed up. if i push on the gas it has almost no power, i have cleaned both idle air control valve and fast idle along with turning fast idle clockways. cleaned throttle body changed spark plugs, wires,whole distributor coil and rotor. put it back into the same spot before but i am doing the spark timing tonight. made sure there was npo air in cooling system. how do you do valve timing and whats the difference in that and spark (ignition) this is my only car so the sooner the better. Anything will help! Thanks

double b from wv

Im Baaack!

alright, so here's were i stand as of late...

• i checked the static timing, and it looks good.
  
• i timed the distro with a light.
  
• i bought a used IACV and put it on just today (ebay $30). no more humming when the key is on.
  
• i crank the engine, and get no attempt to fire.
  
• there is pressure at the fuel rail, and spark at the plugs.
  
• it appears that the injectors are not firing at all. plugs are not wet or smelling like fuel.
  
• i pulled the plugs out and put a new drops of fuel straight into the cylinders, and it tried to start.
  

i looked it over, several times, and nothing appears to be unplugged or anything like that, but its like the injectors all dead.

i know there's a relay that is involved with firing the injectors, but its been a long time, and i dont remember the details. can someone refresh me as to where its located? how to test, or better yet, if there another one on the car that i could swap it with to see if it makes a difference?

thanks, and sorry for the long delay in this thread, but you know... time and money. im wanting to get this thing fixed, sell it, or buy one like it and use for parts. either way, i need to get this thing off the agenda soon.

Lost Again

Have you tested for voltage/ground on the injestors?