Valve Seals/Guides 2015
08-16-2015, 06:07 PM
#1
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Valve Seals/Guides 2015
Lately, I've been burning oil on startup occasionally. I can chaulk it up to valve seals or guides since block was all refreshed last year, .25 over bore rebuild.
I'm a B16 ~11:1, probably only doing 250whp on 10psi, 14B.
Is there a way to accurately check valve wobble while the head is still on the car? Factory manual has you checking play on valve seat side with valve 10mm out, stem side seems not doable.
My head is probably around 80k miles at this point. Do OEM valve guides reach service limit around now?
I'm DD, do I still want OEM guides probably?
Are OEM valve seals currently best option for FI? Vitons, I've read leaks like a siv and has a better material that works better, conflicting. Of course designs change as time goes on.
Whats currently recommended seal brand?
Thanks for all opinions!
I'm a B16 ~11:1, probably only doing 250whp on 10psi, 14B.
Is there a way to accurately check valve wobble while the head is still on the car? Factory manual has you checking play on valve seat side with valve 10mm out, stem side seems not doable.
My head is probably around 80k miles at this point. Do OEM valve guides reach service limit around now?
I'm DD, do I still want OEM guides probably?
Are OEM valve seals currently best option for FI? Vitons, I've read leaks like a siv and has a better material that works better, conflicting. Of course designs change as time goes on.
Whats currently recommended seal brand?
Thanks for all opinions!
08-16-2015, 07:11 PM
#3
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
Service limit is .15 intake .25 ex, movement as measured by dial. No mileage is defined, just measureable range, like a bearing clearance.
My motor doesn't see above 4k rpm constant very often. I do a road course once a year, 15 sessions, 15mins each. WMHM, Gingerman. Wear would be based on rpms would be my guess, so I'm sure I'm wearing faster than 'normal', but probably as much as most visitors to HT. If anyone knows a ballpark range from exp...
My motor doesn't see above 4k rpm constant very often. I do a road course once a year, 15 sessions, 15mins each. WMHM, Gingerman. Wear would be based on rpms would be my guess, so I'm sure I'm wearing faster than 'normal', but probably as much as most visitors to HT. If anyone knows a ballpark range from exp...
08-17-2015, 05:08 AM
#4
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Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
ive had good luck with the supertech valve seals.
you can pop off your manifolds and if the seals are leaking you will see the oil either on the back of the bottom of the guide or the top of the valve stem where it meets the guide. all of this is through the ports on the head.
you can pop off your manifolds and if the seals are leaking you will see the oil either on the back of the bottom of the guide or the top of the valve stem where it meets the guide. all of this is through the ports on the head.
08-17-2015, 08:12 PM
#6
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
In my limited experience, the exhaust guides exhibit wear much more than the intakes.
Logical, from the heat.
Seals seem to last a long time, why not try a fresh set?
They're kinda cheap.
You can replace them without pulling the head.
Logical, from the heat.
Seals seem to last a long time, why not try a fresh set?
They're kinda cheap.
You can replace them without pulling the head.
08-17-2015, 08:18 PM
#7
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Thread Starter
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
If I still have problems, I'll have an excuse to pull the head and send it to fit my gsr cams.
Just need to know if I should stick with OEM seals or other.
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08-18-2015, 03:38 AM
#9
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Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
but yeah i would check the ports intake and exhaust and if any oil is present id replace the seals first. be careful not to loose a keeper down the oil return galley or you will be pulling the pan off....
08-18-2015, 07:12 AM
#11
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
Problem with cams is, I measured the bearing clearance on them, and they were too tight. Need em machined a tad.
I do all my own work, but I don't have the CNC equipment. But one of my clients is Opel Engineering Machine, so I get to have my hands pretty much through the entire process. When that happens I will do the three angle valve job too.
I do all my own work, but I don't have the CNC equipment. But one of my clients is Opel Engineering Machine, so I get to have my hands pretty much through the entire process. When that happens I will do the three angle valve job too.
08-18-2015, 12:43 PM
#12
DO IT ON ALL FOURS
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
This has been debated so many times it makes your head spin. Of course the exhaust guides wobble more... they have built in clearance. There isn't an intake charge going past them to help keep them cool like on the intake side.
Intake seal issues are on the suction side of the head. Sure there is reversion (and possibly boost) but in a normal running environment, oil is sucked through the intake valve stem seals. The exhaust has suction due to scavenging, but more times than not you are met by your car puffing smoke after you start it up due to oil being wicked in by the hot valve after engine shut down.
This is just my opinion, but the higher wear rate of bronze valve guides is well worth their benefits. They help keep the valve cooler (at least that's what we are told
). Probably the number one overlooked benefit is their ability to deform and hold a valve stem if something catastrophic were to happen. OEM valves will make the valve break allowing it to wreak more havoc further downstream (turbo turbine). Personally I have been using SuperTech's guides because they have a flange on them that makes install idiot proof and EXTREMELY quick. Buy a $60 reamer and bronze guide cutting fluid and you are ready to DIY.
Another topic that can be done to any guide is knurling. It is definitely beneficial on N/A type builds, but the few times I had it done on both stock replacement and bronze guides they didn't last very long on my turbo setups. I would reckon it's a more uncommon practice with Honda people though.
Valve seals don't matter in my opinion. I have used OEM and all sorts of Vitons with success. The only ones I had issues with were FelPro (like every gasket they make for Hondas). Most issues from valve stem seals are typically linked back to the installer. Just because of their cost effectiveness, I have been using SuperTech seals in most builds lately.
Intake seal issues are on the suction side of the head. Sure there is reversion (and possibly boost) but in a normal running environment, oil is sucked through the intake valve stem seals. The exhaust has suction due to scavenging, but more times than not you are met by your car puffing smoke after you start it up due to oil being wicked in by the hot valve after engine shut down.
This is just my opinion, but the higher wear rate of bronze valve guides is well worth their benefits. They help keep the valve cooler (at least that's what we are told
). Probably the number one overlooked benefit is their ability to deform and hold a valve stem if something catastrophic were to happen. OEM valves will make the valve break allowing it to wreak more havoc further downstream (turbo turbine). Personally I have been using SuperTech's guides because they have a flange on them that makes install idiot proof and EXTREMELY quick. Buy a $60 reamer and bronze guide cutting fluid and you are ready to DIY.Another topic that can be done to any guide is knurling. It is definitely beneficial on N/A type builds, but the few times I had it done on both stock replacement and bronze guides they didn't last very long on my turbo setups. I would reckon it's a more uncommon practice with Honda people though.
Valve seals don't matter in my opinion. I have used OEM and all sorts of Vitons with success. The only ones I had issues with were FelPro (like every gasket they make for Hondas). Most issues from valve stem seals are typically linked back to the installer. Just because of their cost effectiveness, I have been using SuperTech seals in most builds lately.
08-18-2015, 07:02 PM
#13
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
This has been debated so many times it makes your head spin. Of course the exhaust guides wobble more... they have built in clearance. There isn't an intake charge going past them to help keep them cool like on the intake side.
Intake seal issues are on the suction side of the head. Sure there is reversion (and possibly boost) but in a normal running environment, oil is sucked through the intake valve stem seals. The exhaust has suction due to scavenging, but more times than not you are met by your car puffing smoke after you start it up due to oil being wicked in by the hot valve after engine shut down.
This is just my opinion, but the higher wear rate of bronze valve guides is well worth their benefits. They help keep the valve cooler (at least that's what we are told). Probably the number one overlooked benefit is their ability to deform and hold a valve stem if something catastrophic were to happen. OEM valves will make the valve break allowing it to wreak more havoc further downstream (turbo turbine). Personally I have been using SuperTech's guides because they have a flange on them that makes install idiot proof and EXTREMELY quick. Buy a $60 reamer and bronze guide cutting fluid and you are ready to DIY.
Another topic that can be done to any guide is knurling. It is definitely beneficial on N/A type builds, but the few times I had it done on both stock replacement and bronze guides they didn't last very long on my turbo setups. I would reckon it's a more uncommon practice with Honda people though.
Valve seals don't matter in my opinion. I have used OEM and all sorts of Vitons with success. The only ones I had issues with were FelPro (like every gasket they make for Hondas). Most issues from valve stem seals are typically linked back to the installer. Just because of their cost effectiveness, I have been using SuperTech seals in most builds lately.
Intake seal issues are on the suction side of the head. Sure there is reversion (and possibly boost) but in a normal running environment, oil is sucked through the intake valve stem seals. The exhaust has suction due to scavenging, but more times than not you are met by your car puffing smoke after you start it up due to oil being wicked in by the hot valve after engine shut down.
This is just my opinion, but the higher wear rate of bronze valve guides is well worth their benefits. They help keep the valve cooler (at least that's what we are told
). Probably the number one overlooked benefit is their ability to deform and hold a valve stem if something catastrophic were to happen. OEM valves will make the valve break allowing it to wreak more havoc further downstream (turbo turbine). Personally I have been using SuperTech's guides because they have a flange on them that makes install idiot proof and EXTREMELY quick. Buy a $60 reamer and bronze guide cutting fluid and you are ready to DIY.Another topic that can be done to any guide is knurling. It is definitely beneficial on N/A type builds, but the few times I had it done on both stock replacement and bronze guides they didn't last very long on my turbo setups. I would reckon it's a more uncommon practice with Honda people though.
Valve seals don't matter in my opinion. I have used OEM and all sorts of Vitons with success. The only ones I had issues with were FelPro (like every gasket they make for Hondas). Most issues from valve stem seals are typically linked back to the installer. Just because of their cost effectiveness, I have been using SuperTech seals in most builds lately.
Thinking oem seals, if they still leak, guides.
I don't mind opening my motor every now and then. Its why I invested in my tools dispite being a small side hobby. So bronze guides do sound tempting.
If I get you right, after knocking old guides out, punch in the bronze ones? No machine or resize of aluminum in head? Then bronze reamer to size guide for clearance to valve?
And your saying don't knurl the bronze guides for turbo?
I like to run leaner cruise range for mpg since I daily. So heat dissapation is good. But heat has to go somewhere, I'll have to find out how much heat is lessened.
How common is valve breakage? Common on stock valvetrain stock redline?
And replacement on bronze down the line is easy and repeatable without wearing out the head?
Thanks for answers.. Googling stuff as I got time, but if you're on point, awesome.
08-20-2015, 09:03 AM
#14
DO IT ON ALL FOURS
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
I guess I'm going with oem valve seals this time.
Thinking oem seals, if they still leak, guides.
That's one way of doing it I guess. You can see how much the valve moves in the guide bore but you better have that piston at TDC to catch it since you can't use air to keep the valves closed and still be able to push it off it's seat. Either way as stated before, you should measure from the combustion chamber side for actual numbers.
You need to make for sure the seals are installed nice and square or that can cause leaks right away and/or premature failure.
I don't mind opening my motor every now and then. Its why I invested in my tools dispite being a small side hobby. So bronze guides do sound tempting.
If I get you right, after knocking old guides out, punch in the bronze ones? No machine or resize of aluminum in head? Then bronze reamer to size guide for clearance to valve?
Yeah, heat head to at around 300* and knock them out. Too hot and the seats may fall out (never happened to me before at 400*) They can be extremely stubborn and is why I purchased the air hammer tool quite some time ago. I will post a picture below. Otherwise they have to be drilled out. Nothing is done to the head after that aside from possibly correcting any damage that was done from knockout.
You want to use a driver to knock the new ones in. Most people put them in a freezer to shrink the quides some, this is a cool idea (haha pun) but when you look at how little they shrink from that it may or may not be worth it to you. I usually preheat the head. Obviously heating the head isn't as easy to work on if you have to set heights on each (all 16
) guides. This is where I prefer guides with stops built into them. This of course assumes your head is pretty even across each retainer seat for seal clearance purposes. I personally have never had an issue with guide height by just slamming the SuperTechs in the head. 
Yes, a reamer is required due to the guides distorting slightly when they are installed due to the interference fit. I use OEM specs for clearances. I have heard some people like them loose, but I look at it like this - you will have valve stem seal issues sooner than later.
And your saying don't knurl the bronze guides for turbo?
I am just some dumb hillbilly, take it for what it's worth. I personally had issues with knurled guides not lasting in a couple of my turbo builds. Then again, I am cranking some RPM usually 9 to 10k... but had no issues with my N/A engines doing the same. IDK. Plus, you have to find a shop that can even knurle guides. Most can't in NWI and they just order non-bronze knurled guides to begin with.
I like to run leaner cruise range for mpg since I daily. So heat dissapation is good. But heat has to go somewhere, I'll have to find out how much heat is lessened.
That's what the coolant system is for...
How common is valve breakage? Common on stock valvetrain stock redline?
Uhh, actually VERY common. Usually it's part of the face that breaks off the valve though. Hell, I just recently tore apart a head that had one a few weeks ago. I have seen it around a dozen times personally. Your chances of it happening only increases when you add the higher EGTs of a turbo engine. High RPM definitely increases your chances with failure potential. The problem is stock valves have **** memory. Search 4piston's posts for much more detail on this.
And replacement on bronze down the line is easy and repeatable without wearing out the head?
As with anything that has an interference fit, it will wear it out over time. With that being said, most bronze guides are reported to last 40 - 80k... So how many times do you think you will need to replace them? That wouldn't be a concern of mine personally. The most I have replaced guides in a single head was 3 times so far and it still had plenty of grip. Went from OEM -> aftermarket replacement -> aftermarket knurled -> bronze.
Thanks for answers.. Googling stuff as I got time, but if you're on point, awesome.
Thinking oem seals, if they still leak, guides.
That's one way of doing it I guess. You can see how much the valve moves in the guide bore but you better have that piston at TDC to catch it since you can't use air to keep the valves closed and still be able to push it off it's seat. Either way as stated before, you should measure from the combustion chamber side for actual numbers.
You need to make for sure the seals are installed nice and square or that can cause leaks right away and/or premature failure.
I don't mind opening my motor every now and then. Its why I invested in my tools dispite being a small side hobby. So bronze guides do sound tempting.
If I get you right, after knocking old guides out, punch in the bronze ones? No machine or resize of aluminum in head? Then bronze reamer to size guide for clearance to valve?
Yeah, heat head to at around 300* and knock them out. Too hot and the seats may fall out (never happened to me before at 400*) They can be extremely stubborn and is why I purchased the air hammer tool quite some time ago. I will post a picture below. Otherwise they have to be drilled out. Nothing is done to the head after that aside from possibly correcting any damage that was done from knockout.
You want to use a driver to knock the new ones in. Most people put them in a freezer to shrink the quides some, this is a cool idea (haha pun) but when you look at how little they shrink from that it may or may not be worth it to you. I usually preheat the head. Obviously heating the head isn't as easy to work on if you have to set heights on each (all 16
) guides. This is where I prefer guides with stops built into them. This of course assumes your head is pretty even across each retainer seat for seal clearance purposes. I personally have never had an issue with guide height by just slamming the SuperTechs in the head. Yes, a reamer is required due to the guides distorting slightly when they are installed due to the interference fit. I use OEM specs for clearances. I have heard some people like them loose, but I look at it like this - you will have valve stem seal issues sooner than later.
And your saying don't knurl the bronze guides for turbo?
I am just some dumb hillbilly, take it for what it's worth. I personally had issues with knurled guides not lasting in a couple of my turbo builds. Then again, I am cranking some RPM usually 9 to 10k... but had no issues with my N/A engines doing the same. IDK. Plus, you have to find a shop that can even knurle guides. Most can't in NWI and they just order non-bronze knurled guides to begin with.
I like to run leaner cruise range for mpg since I daily. So heat dissapation is good. But heat has to go somewhere, I'll have to find out how much heat is lessened.
That's what the coolant system is for...
How common is valve breakage? Common on stock valvetrain stock redline?
Uhh, actually VERY common. Usually it's part of the face that breaks off the valve though. Hell, I just recently tore apart a head that had one a few weeks ago. I have seen it around a dozen times personally. Your chances of it happening only increases when you add the higher EGTs of a turbo engine. High RPM definitely increases your chances with failure potential. The problem is stock valves have **** memory. Search 4piston's posts for much more detail on this.
And replacement on bronze down the line is easy and repeatable without wearing out the head?
As with anything that has an interference fit, it will wear it out over time. With that being said, most bronze guides are reported to last 40 - 80k... So how many times do you think you will need to replace them? That wouldn't be a concern of mine personally. The most I have replaced guides in a single head was 3 times so far and it still had plenty of grip. Went from OEM -> aftermarket replacement -> aftermarket knurled -> bronze.
Thanks for answers.. Googling stuff as I got time, but if you're on point, awesome.
Again, just take my answers for what they are worth - nothing. It is all just my opinion based off of my experiences.
08-20-2015, 11:15 AM
#15
DO IT ON ALL FOURS
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
Here you go, here is a recent thread I was trying to remember where I saw it talking about stock valve limits. Everyone has their own opinion, and like I said before, it all boils down to whatever you are comfortable with doing. I have seen too many stock valve failures to risk running OEM on performance builds. To each his own though.
https://honda-tech.com/drag-racing-3.../#post50493507
Oh... and in addition to my post above, you can order (or at least used to be able to) oversized valve guides if things start to wear.
https://honda-tech.com/drag-racing-3.../#post50493507
Oh... and in addition to my post above, you can order (or at least used to be able to) oversized valve guides if things start to wear.
12-10-2015, 09:00 PM
#16
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
S. B. International ... Products: Valve Guides
"The SBI valve guide has incorporated over 60 years of foundry and machining technology into each and every guide. Valve guides are manufactured with specified tolerances and can be installed directly into the cylinder head guide bore without additional work."
Only tools I needed were the air hammer and driver, and calipers to set height.
"The SBI valve guide has incorporated over 60 years of foundry and machining technology into each and every guide. Valve guides are manufactured with specified tolerances and can be installed directly into the cylinder head guide bore without additional work."
Only tools I needed were the air hammer and driver, and calipers to set height.
12-10-2015, 10:36 PM
#17
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
Appreciate you thinking of this thread, as it's been a while. Good info.
So far I've not had any more issues. But I'll keep them in mind, only a matter of time. Never heard of this company before either. Bookmarked. Thanks again
So far I've not had any more issues. But I'll keep them in mind, only a matter of time. Never heard of this company before either. Bookmarked. Thanks again
01-12-2016, 04:51 AM
#18
DO IT ON ALL FOURS
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
S. B. International ... Products: Valve Guides
"The SBI valve guide has incorporated over 60 years of foundry and machining technology into each and every guide. Valve guides are manufactured with specified tolerances and can be installed directly into the cylinder head guide bore without additional work."
Only tools I needed were the air hammer and driver, and calipers to set height.
"The SBI valve guide has incorporated over 60 years of foundry and machining technology into each and every guide. Valve guides are manufactured with specified tolerances and can be installed directly into the cylinder head guide bore without additional work."
Only tools I needed were the air hammer and driver, and calipers to set height.
01-12-2016, 06:57 AM
#19
Swaggylicious
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
so to clarify, valve seals CAN be replaced without taking the head off?
01-12-2016, 07:54 AM
#20
DO IT ON ALL FOURS
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
Yes, you can replace valve stem seals with the head on. However, you WILL need a air compressor and an adapter to be able to put air into the cylinder. There are two reasons for this.
1.) Even with the picton at TDC, you most likely won't be able to get the keepers/locks out of the retainers. You need resistance to hold the valve on its seat.
2.) It is not a wise idea to put force on the valve face against ANYTHING. Leverage effect is a bitch LOL! The air at around 100psi+ (maybe more for stubborn keepers/high seat pressures) will provide enough resistance to remove the keepers and keep the valves from falling in the bore.
They sell tools that make installation a breeze with or without the valve in the guide. I highly suggest purchasing the tools I talk about in the link below and the discussion goes more detailed for you too:
https://honda-tech.com/all-motor-nat...-lube-3245348/
1.) Even with the picton at TDC, you most likely won't be able to get the keepers/locks out of the retainers. You need resistance to hold the valve on its seat.
2.) It is not a wise idea to put force on the valve face against ANYTHING. Leverage effect is a bitch LOL! The air at around 100psi+ (maybe more for stubborn keepers/high seat pressures) will provide enough resistance to remove the keepers and keep the valves from falling in the bore.
They sell tools that make installation a breeze with or without the valve in the guide. I highly suggest purchasing the tools I talk about in the link below and the discussion goes more detailed for you too:
https://honda-tech.com/all-motor-nat...-lube-3245348/
01-12-2016, 10:20 AM
#21
Swaggylicious
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
oh yeah no, fk that, i'm having a shop do it
I put it my own ITR cams, I think it took 97 hours to get timing correct lol
knowing it can be done with the head done gives me an idea of pricing/turn around time doe
I put it my own ITR cams, I think it took 97 hours to get timing correct lol
knowing it can be done with the head done gives me an idea of pricing/turn around time doe
01-12-2016, 02:26 PM
#22
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
It was super fun doing my valve seals. I can add this to the thread.
Air was not enough. Keepers that have not been removed in over 100k miles, and probably have seen close to 9k rpm once, maybe twice (That's not fifth!!) Anyway, whatever the case, my keepers were really hard to get free of the retainer.
I used the coiled rope trick. It worked better, but man the amount of force I needed was ridiculous. Sometimes I felt like I was going to break something. Pretty much every retainer I took off popped hard. The keepers would go flying. I had to use a paper towel wadded up inside the cavity of the tool to keep them from flying around the garage. The first time it happened...probably spent and hour looking for one of the 2 pieces...
I used http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/022...g?v=1390774806 to compress the valve springs and remove the retainers.
I used http://public.snapon.com/R_RRD/Objec...mages/SBP5.jpg to pull the seals. The brand I used was not snap-on, Advanced Auto sold the most durable one, best tool for the job, leslie brand maybe?
Yanking the seals off was fun too. Installing was a breeze.
Still not smoking, still going good here. Well, that's a half truth, my 14b turbo is smoking and the GT28 is on deck, so almost back to good good.
Air was not enough. Keepers that have not been removed in over 100k miles, and probably have seen close to 9k rpm once, maybe twice (That's not fifth!!) Anyway, whatever the case, my keepers were really hard to get free of the retainer.
I used the coiled rope trick. It worked better, but man the amount of force I needed was ridiculous. Sometimes I felt like I was going to break something. Pretty much every retainer I took off popped hard. The keepers would go flying. I had to use a paper towel wadded up inside the cavity of the tool to keep them from flying around the garage. The first time it happened...probably spent and hour looking for one of the 2 pieces...
I used http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/022...g?v=1390774806 to compress the valve springs and remove the retainers.
I used http://public.snapon.com/R_RRD/Objec...mages/SBP5.jpg to pull the seals. The brand I used was not snap-on, Advanced Auto sold the most durable one, best tool for the job, leslie brand maybe?
Yanking the seals off was fun too. Installing was a breeze.
Still not smoking, still going good here. Well, that's a half truth, my 14b turbo is smoking and the GT28 is on deck, so almost back to good good.
01-12-2016, 02:31 PM
#23
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
Seems to me, most of the time cams or head or both need to see the machinist for proper fitment.
01-12-2016, 02:33 PM
#24
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
Yes, you can replace valve stem seals with the head on. However, you WILL need a air compressor and an adapter to be able to put air into the cylinder. There are two reasons for this.
1.) Even with the picton at TDC, you most likely won't be able to get the keepers/locks out of the retainers. You need resistance to hold the valve on its seat.
2.) It is not a wise idea to put force on the valve face against ANYTHING. Leverage effect is a bitch LOL! The air at around 100psi+ (maybe more for stubborn keepers/high seat pressures) will provide enough resistance to remove the keepers and keep the valves from falling in the bore.
They sell tools that make installation a breeze with or without the valve in the guide. I highly suggest purchasing the tools I talk about in the link below and the discussion goes more detailed for you too:
https://honda-tech.com/all-motor-nat...-lube-3245348/
1.) Even with the picton at TDC, you most likely won't be able to get the keepers/locks out of the retainers. You need resistance to hold the valve on its seat.
2.) It is not a wise idea to put force on the valve face against ANYTHING. Leverage effect is a bitch LOL! The air at around 100psi+ (maybe more for stubborn keepers/high seat pressures) will provide enough resistance to remove the keepers and keep the valves from falling in the bore.
They sell tools that make installation a breeze with or without the valve in the guide. I highly suggest purchasing the tools I talk about in the link below and the discussion goes more detailed for you too:
https://honda-tech.com/all-motor-nat...-lube-3245348/
01-12-2016, 03:42 PM
#25
DO IT ON ALL FOURS
Re: Valve Seals/Guides 2015
Rope is still better than using the picton. With the head off, a rubber mallet or deadblow will suffice with a deft hand. The keepers definitely can be a PITA like I said before.
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