LightningTeg

Wait CTR pulley? Id put my money on that. All my reading lead me to conclude they really have no place in an FI motor.

Mjalaly

yes but.... regardless of the company the differences between those two intercoolers should make a difference and not actually be worse. I tried running a simulation through my flow simulation software, but without actually cutting the cores open and measuring, its a moot point.

here are the two side by side, except i had the inlets and out were cut and welded on at 90°.

Mjalaly

from what i have read, they cause the pump to shatter, no? If the pump is shattered then yes i can point to that but if not then i may not be the issue. I used it since it can fit closer to my chassis without hitting and from what i read its a long term issue

2kdrift

CTR pulley has no dampening, its completely horrible/ You need the dampening especially on a car that revs high alot. You might look into a ATI super damper pulley. I have a VTEC pulley sitting at home I never got around to selling.

I dont quite understand how air flows through your inter cooler, seems like the larger one would get a bit more heatsoak since its bigger and theres not really any air flowing through it. Even subarus that use a top mount intercooler have a scoop

Mjalaly

yeah the CTR one is really debated and to be honest, I may never know if it was the issue or not. The original plan was to remove and inspect the engine each year (hell i only put 1200 miles on it last year) to see how everything looks. However, it didn't make it that long. New bearings if necessary each year is nothing cost wise.

On the intercooler, honestly its pure magic... actually it sits at an angle and there is a scoop that goes on top.. i just haven't had the time to make the molds and layup the carbon. I figured it was a better idea to change the intercooler first, then make the scoop to fit that. Additionally if it runs well without a scoop, it will be a lot better with one. I also gave thought to running a layer of gold tape over the end tanks to see if it is suffering from heat soak. These are all things i plan on doing after i get the car running of course.

2kdrift

theres no debate that it has no dampening, if your oil pump is toast your CTR pulley had alot to do with it. Many honda enthusiasts take this one step further and upgrade there already dampened pulley to a ATI super damper, for longevity reasons

you do realize to change the crank bearings entire block comes apart, pistons, rods, crank. Kind of a big job at that point you may as well replace other parts while your in there.

I think a scoop help alot if your comparing 2 intercoolers and the smaller one had a scoop doesent sound like a fair comparison

Mjalaly

Unless that pulley blew the pump, I highly doubt (not saying it couldn't happend) that the pulley could blow a built engine like I have after 1200miles, just because it wasn't damped. But I was wrong one other time in my life. I do intend to see if I can get a ground (remove the ac part) and balanced stock pulley on there though.

Yes I do understand that taking the block apart can be a big task but I am using a whole new crank and block for this build. My tuner is just going to pull the rods and pistons, check their condition, and reuse on the new block if posible. All new oil pump, bearings etc.

If you mean it's a big job to do each year I don't think so on a car like this. Generally, I tear down the bellcrank bearings, check the turbo, cooling system, safety gear (seat bolts and the like) etc after every other drive or after a trackday/race. SOP. I have a checklist.

Also neither intercooler has had a scoop.

2kdrift

Sounds like alot of work really no reason to be tearing the motor down once a year....to each their own

Mjalaly

Yeah its not intense. Just put her on a stand, pull the pan, check to make sure none of the torque bolts have loosened (paint markings), check all of the other bolts, check the pump, etc. Just a weekend thing. I can't drive the car during the winter anyway.

Mjalaly

Well I went to the shop and one of the guys had a torn up engine because of that pulley so it's going bye bye.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

And that's great.. But these intercooler efficiencies more than likely weren't factored in.. The difference between simulation and integration testing.

You asked how this phenomenon of your change in intercooler size netted higher intake temperatures.. I'm giving you the more likely answer, and reference information to boot, that's all.

You know what you know.

Mjalaly

For now i am going to sit tight on the intercooler issue until i can do more testing once the car is running.

Dark_Teg

Please show me a stock B-series crank pulley that was designed to dampen harmonics. Even Honda refers to that little rubber layer that the Honda guys try to say dampens harmonics as a noise isolator and nothing more.

I put an ATI dampner on mine.

Mjalaly

I'm with you but I don't know for sure if the ctr pulley causes issues or not.

Mjalaly

Well the shop pulled the oil pump off and it looked fine so i guess the whole pulley thing isnt an issue. Rods 3 and 4 are dark so those are the ones that threw bearings. Not sure what the issue could be except oil sloshing and not being picked up. I think they were going to pull the head today and look around some more.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I wouldn't be that conclusory, but, sure, ok..

Unless that CTR pulley was balanced with the rest of the rotating assembly, it was always an issue... For YEARS on street Hondas. Kind of like a time bomb waiting to happen. You don't see "signs of wear" like you would other components.

Mjalaly

Ok yes that maybe true but specifically to this indecent I am pretty sure it had nothing to do with it. Yes i am still going to look at replacing it in the near future.

For this issue, I have been looking at replacing the oil pan with a moroso race one with the kick out and adding a oil pressure sensor that i can log with hondata.

2kdrift

what was the failure specifically? CTR pulleys are known to ruin bearings

I would skip that pan, OEM is just fine moroso is nothing but problems. I believe shodan recommends a canton or something like that. I have my oil pressure sensor hooked up to my sandwich plate, there are other options available on the block itself aswell.

Mjalaly

bearings are toast and there is metal in the oil pan... other than that? All i know is that it starved of oil and the pump probably isn't the issue since it looks fine.

the OEM most likely isn't fine if it is causing oil starvation. A lot of people have had issues.

2kdrift

LOL. Oem pan causing starvation issues I dont think so. Hondas are known for longevity, I have 200k on my crv runs perfectly. I would be more inclined to look at the pulley if anything.

OEM Pan / oil pump here no issues

Mjalaly

i am pretty sure you don't track your CRV. Check out the road race forum... its an issue.

again, i very highly doubt the pulley will cause that kind of an issue after 1200 miles and i am not going to be pulled into a never ending pulley debate.

2kdrift

Didnt realize you were tracking it, how many times did u hit the track before the motor failed?

to each their own...ATI pulley is about the same cost as the pan I say if your replacing the pan why not replace the pulley as well

just my .02

Mjalaly

quite a few times (track and autocross) and tons of mountain drives. The car can definitely hit much higher g's (1.53 on non race tires) than a standard car so that adds to the issue.

I know for sure the oil pan is an issue so that needs to be replaced now and I have to spend money wisely. Both of them together are $700. Also the CTR pulley will clear my chassis tube.. I dont know if the ATI will or not. The stock one definitely does not. I can always check the bearings again once the car goes away for the winter and add an ATI one then if i am concerned.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

The ATI had several types of pulleys, some that keep the amenities like airconditioning and additional alternator. The standard race pulley will easily clear better than the CTR, with better control.

The moroso pan is garbage, especially for turbocharging, as it has a terrible time running a proper return line, and can cause starvation issues on journal bearing turbo s...and I'm saying this as a turbo road racer with a few thousand miles under his belt.

The only issue with the OEM pan is the hard left turns due to lack of baffling. Muffin, and some other companies made baffles to be welded into the OEM with wonderful results. I still have one of those pans after 9 years.

My next project will involve my canton pan. Better baffling than moroso, no leaks like the moroso (which work better with an oil pan stud kit from Hondahabit.com)

Cliffs:
So, do as you will, but the localized problem with the CTR pulley was it was killing bearings, even when the pump was fine.. Sad but true.

Moroso, god bless 'em as a company, but they screwed the pooch when it came to using them with turbos. Stick to oem, and get a baffle kit, for REAL insurance, or get a Canton pan.

Your research is about 60% right, but I target when a lot of those threads were written. We didn't find out for years and hundreds of damaged motors late, that the CTR pulley was just asking for a short-lived engine.

You want to know why this motor died so early, and we're telling you the big factors, as much as you may not believe their validity...

Dark_Teg

If the CTR pulley were to blame why would it kill the two bearings that are the farthest from it? Makes no sense. The nasty harmonics skip bearing 1 and 2 only to destroy 3 and 4?