bluelights81

Hello everyone. I'm starting to piece together a rebuild/turbo build for my 2000 coupe. I've had the car for 12 years and have taken extremely good care of it. I've got the car exactly how I want it except for the engine. It has 180K on it, so a rebuild with performance internals are in order if I'm going to turbo it. Reliability is key, as this will be a daily driver, not a track car. I also want to buy quality parts, do it right the first time and not cheap out on anything. I want to build a straight F23 as it stands, with no swaps. I love the Accord, and want to keep it true to its name with the SOHC, obviously with higher performance parts to withstand the added beating of boost. The car is currently in storage for the winter and am anticipating pulling it and assembly around April. Currently as the car sits, it has:

-Koni/Ground Control suspension setup
-24mm Progress rear anti-sway bar
-Neuspeed front tower brace
-18" RH Evolution C5 wheels painted a custom gunmetal
-AEM Cold Air Intake
-Brembo blank rotors with Axxis HP Pads
-Goodridge stainless steel brake lines
-OBX Headers and cat back exhaust
-OEM Honda full lip kit
-a few other add ons which aren't particularly worth mentioning

I have begun to buy parts here and there, as money permits, for the turbo/rebuild project. Over the past month or so I have bought:

-OEM Honda Valve Cover Gasket
-OEM Honda V-tech Valve Cover (for refinishing)
-Mishimoto Intercooler
-Walbro Fuel Pump
-Gates Racing Timing Belt
-Gates Racing Balance Shaft Belt
-Rywire OBD1 Conversion Harness
-Speed Factory Orange 4-bar MAP Sensor
-Bisimoto Intake Manifold Gasket
-OEM Honda Intake Manifold
-OEM Honda Intake Manifold Plenum Gasket
-AEM Fuel Rail
-Crower F23 Connecting Rods
-EGR Block Off Plate
-OEM Honda Crankshaft Pulley
-Marshall Fuel Pressure Gauge
-ARP H23 Head Studs
-OEM Honda Throttle Cable
-Bisimoto Cam Gear
-Wiseco K20 Pistons, 86.5mm
-Turbonetics T3T4 turbo. T04B series. Stage 3 A/R .48. Super S compressor. (They stopped making this model a few years ago, but I just bought one brand new for $500. I've read alot about A/R .48 vs. .63, however the goal is reliability as my daily car. I'd rather compromise high end power for quick spooling. I've read this turbo is great for 3K-6K rpm's)

I will most likely be using the stock head and stock intake manifold as well as most of my research concludes both are capable. Will be mirroring the build by AFACCORD if any of you have followed and/or seen his build. My hp goals are 300-350 if all goes as planned.

I have some questions for those of you who have built/boosted this engine. Hopefully someone can help me out with them.

1. Balance Shaft deletion. Is this wise? Will it create intolerable vibrations and is it harmful to the motor. Again my goal is 300-350 hp.

2. On Majestic Honda's website, for the head gasket, they list two part numbers. One's a Nippon Leakless gasket and the other one is Ishino. Any idea which one I should get?

3. Anyone know of somewhere I can get a quality manifold? Treadstone Performance currently has a stainless steel log type for $210. I was thinking about that.

4. Head Work. I would like to at a minimum replace the valves, springs and retainers with a new, higher end product. I've read the Ferrea F22 are an exact fit in the F23 head. Can anyone confirm or deny this for me? Not thinking of an updated cam at this point, as there are very limited options for this engine.

Will try to update my progress as I go. Any feedback and/or suggestions from others who have undertaken an F23 build is welcomed!

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Delete the balance shafts. They were put there to cancel out vibrations that would ruin comfort. You won't notice anything in a performance application. The stiffer suspension will put more vibrations into the chassis than no balance shafts would. Plus you'll have higher oil pressure if you do delete them. Also since there's less unsprung mass on the motor it will rev slightly faster.

The manifold options are somewhat limited. You can either buy a cast manifold off of eBay, buy a tubular manifold from a fabrication company, or build your own.

met

If you do some searching on this, the balance shaft spins at 2 times the crank rpm. The bearing on it have a tendency to wear faster and you loose oil pressure.

The second part a little of engineering I will try and keep it simple. If your crank is out of balance the counter shaft will cancel the net vibrations, but the fact is the crank still is out and causing excess wear. Taking it out doesn't increase any vibrations, just lets you notice them if there are any.

Also its very inefficient to mechanically speed up a shaft like that, there are dyno graphs I have seen people picking up like 7whp off the delete alone. I personally haven't seen back to back runs in person, but from the engineering point it will defiantly decrease parasitic frictional losses.

bluelights81

Thank you very much to the both of you. I feel pretty confident in assembling the engine, however there are clearly questions and advice that I'll need help with along the way. I'm not a professional by any means, but I've read that with a modified engine, particularly boost, it's just another thing that can fail. I actually just found a manifold that Spoolin makes. $325 isn't a bad price at all and from what I've read, they're a solid company. Here's some pics of some small projects to keep me motivated through this winter we're having in NH.

Also I'm looking at the Innovative Mount set for this chassis. They're pretty much the only company who makes one. They sell a 3 mount kit, without the front mount. Is this something that is safely done or should I keep the stock front one?

Aradin

I have a custom turbo manifold that will fit your motor for sale. If interested, pm me.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I'm still debating the plan for my f22 I'm about to pull out of my accord before it gets scrapped. I saw afaccords build and that got me thinking about what I could do with the motor. I don't know how your head flows compared to my a1 head but the a1 flows almost like a ported vtec head in stock form and loves to spool big turbos from what I've read and been told but I've always been a midrange torque road race kind of guy so I'm not exactly sure of the direction I want to go regarding turbo size.

I'll be interested to see what your results are.

Have you considered an rbc k series intake manifold? They fit the f series heads with minimal work and sore considerable gains over a ported or gutted stock im, both the ones with and without butterflies from the factory. I don't remember the exact process but I think it's just slotting sine holes and gasket matching the head flange and runners.

I'd look into it over the stock manifold. Granted the shorter runners Erik cause some loss of torque but the straight runners that have a larger cross section and a larger plenum than the stock one should make a good bit more power almost everywhere in the rpm range when compared to the stock one.

Aradin

1. It's not going to causing any noticeable vibrations from my experience. They do nothing for harmonics, simply there for driver comfort. The Kaizenspeed kit is a nice piece. I ran it on my built F22. However you can get away with just taking the belt off if you want the power gains, though that won't net you any extra oil pressure. The difference in oil pressure with and without the kit was not that much honestly.

2. I use FelPro MLS gaskets on all of my builds. Never had an issue.

3. Treadstone, SpoolinPerformance. I also have a good tubular piece for sale as stated above. If you're going with a log, there's absolutely nothing wrong the eBay cast log manifolds. I've been rocking one for almost 5 years now.

4. Don't know about interchangeability. You can get cam regrinds through bisi or delta. Though you won't need one for your goals.

Dallasb84

You made that Mani pretty! Nice job

met

The problem with oil pressure isn't when the bearing are good its the fact that the counter shaft spins at 2x the crank. At 7k engine rpm that baby is spinning at 14k. The bearings tend to wear out faster, so when you get a little millage on it the oil pressure drop can be significant considering where the oil draws from. It comes from where the main oil passages for the crank.

bluelights81

Thanks man!

Will an updated cam make noticeable differences? My goals are 300-350hp, but never considered an upgraded cam. I suppose I could always get it done down the road. I'd like log for price reasons, considering they're under $100 on Ebay, and they're small and simple. I'd like to keep my A/C and not buy a half size radiator if at all possible. However I've heard they don't allow for adequate spool up time. Any experience with this? And if I were to delete the BS's, I'd get the Kaizenspeed kit and remove them. I don't like the idea of them just sitting there inside my engine. It's $160 for the total kit and looks like you can do it yourself, which I'm trying to do 90% of the build myself.

I'll look into it, however I know AFACCORD kept his stock unit, except for the having the throttle body bored by Maxbore, and pushed huge numbers. Also I really don't have any experience in modifying and cross-matching parts just to make them fit. I wouldn't want to f*ck anything up. Plus I wouldn't want to mess with have that mounts up to the stock unit and placement issues.

So I'm a little confused to your response? I understand what you're saying and oil pressure, but are you saying it'll actually benefit from removing the BS's? From the added pressure?

Aradin

Of course a cam will help, but it's not really necessary for 300-350. I'm making more than that on an F22B1 that's completely stock aside from headstuds.

Log manifolds will actually spool the fastest since the exhaust gasses have a very short distance to go but they hinder total power output as they're not extremely efficient. For your power level/goals it'll be a good match and give a lot of torque.


The Kaizenspeed kit literally took me 15 minutes or less to install when I built my motor. I would advise tapping the oil passage for the plug BEFORE sending it off to the machine shop if you do so, so that they can wash out the loose metal.

bluelights81

Thanks for the insight. I may hold off on a cam. Might get upgraded springs, valves and retainers though, just as piece of mind. I think I might get a cast. High end hp is realistically not my concern. I feel the fun in driving the car is at low-moderate speeds, banging through the gears, through turns and hills. But that's just my preference I guess. To each his own. Do you have any insight as far as mounts? I'd like to keep the stock ones, however realize they may not hold over time. I priced out the Innovative set for my chassis, however it doesn't come with a front mount. I realize some people run only 3, especially with the civics, merely for looks, but what's your thoughts on it for ours?

I appreciate your opinions and responses, so thank you.

Aradin

The mounts differ slightly by chassis. My car is a 5th gen, to your 6th. There are no off-the-shelf options for my chassis with a F22/F23 engine. I would definitely run the OEM front mount regardless of which direction you go. There are other alternatives to the innovative mounts...you can buy polyurethane inserts to help stiffen up the OEM ones or you can do DIY "solid" mounts. Your chassis has a funky driver side mount IIRC.

I ended up going with the DIY solid mounts. Seems to be the middle between cheapest and best. I bought new stock mounts a few years ago and filled them up with 70A polyurethane that I got from a kit I bought off eBay. You could look for a kit like that or use 3M Window Weld. I've used both in the past with success. Vibrations are not as bad as Innovative/Hasport/Whatever but you know they're solid. Mine are still going strong.

bluelights81

So Innovative/Hasport create more vibrations? Didn't know that. Figure they'd reduce the added stress of the engine. I'd like to find a happy medium of keeping the ride quality of the Accord and controlling engine movement, so I may go your route. Plus saving money is always a plus.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

any type of mount that has more rigidity than the oem mounts is going to cause more noticeable vibrations... however most of those are only at idle. you'll find loose fasteners quickly as they will rattle more readily.

personally I run solid mounts on my street cars and you don't notice anything except at idle. A decent suspension setup will cause more notice than stiffer mounts.

Aradin

+2 on the loose bolts. That **** got on my nerves lol. Every single one of those bastards will back their way out if they're not torqued appropriately. I actually had my whole alternator tensioner assembly come loose on the highway and I ended up burning the alternator plug on my downpipe.

I've driven hasport/innovative solid mount cars. They give it more of a...racecar feel. Honestly I prefer my filled ones for a daily. Nice and smooth. Mostly only notice the vibrations on a cold start. Don't get my teeth rattled out sitting in traffic. Even the 65A OTS kits are a lot more aggressive than my 70A filled mounts. I guess maybe because mine are still essentially made of rubber and not metal.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

See I'm weird. Vibrations and stiff rides don't bother me. I actually hate cars that feel squishy lol. Race car ride quality or die

bluelights81

I run GC/Koni setup and have it dropped to about a finger gap and run the shocks 3/4 hard on the rear, about 1/2 on the front, so it's pretty stiff, especially for our roads up in NH, which are less than ideal. But I love it. Love how it feels tight and more controlled and responsive. The vibrations I think might bother me, if it was drastically more than stock. Mainly because I have OCD haha The stock engine runs smooth as hell, trying to stay as close to that as I can. Obviously don't want mounts breaking though with the added stress.

bluelights81

I have two questions relating merely to preference if anyone wants to chime in on. I'm deleting the cruise control when I pull the motor. It was a nice feature when I got the car, but really want to get rid of it just clean up the bay. Second, I've read alot about removing power steering using the "loop" method. Again just to clean things up. Any feedback? I've heard it's really not that bad once moving, but heard at slow speeds, parking and such, it sucks.

Aradin

I've been running without powersteering for at least 5 years now. My car is a daily also. Honestly after awhile you don't even notice it. It's really not that bad. It'll be easier with a smaller tire but I'm running 235/45/17 on 17x8.25 wheels and I don't have any issues. I like it better that way. Gives me a more positive feel of the road. I especially noticed a difference when romping down backroads. It's a lot easier to feel the limit of what you're doing because you'll get what's happening on the road directly through the steering wheel without the powersteering dampening anything if that makes sense.

I believe that there's a write-up with the fittings and other stuff needed in the FAQ. It was about $10 for all of it and was easy to do when I had the motor out.

bluelights81

Gathering parts is a slooooow process. Especially while trying to become credit card debt free. Pistons/Rods should be in this week or next. Also ordered a Bisi cam gear which should be here with the day or so. Debating on buying his valve spring set as well.

Flr Power

Contrary to what most people say, I would not remove the Balance Shafts (unless you keep the stock engine mounts) as it creates an annoying vibration through the steering wheel.

You will also hear the entire cabin buzz and trust me, things will get loose. I used to run with the balance shaft belt removed but I put it back a week after I went with Innovative engine mounts.

I have been running my turbo Accord 98 since 2003...

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Maybe I'm weird because I don't notice the vibrations at anything but idle or maybe I'm just use to it

Flr Power

You don't notice the vibrations cause you haven't driven with an F23 engine with stiff engine mounts and balance shafts removed!

The vibrations gets faster and bigger with RPM's.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I took the belt off of my f22. Didn't notice.

I drive cars with solid billet mounts and don't even notice the vibrations