Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
07-29-2012, 02:06 PM
#101
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
Last edited by TheShodan; 07-29-2012 at 02:57 PM.
07-29-2012, 02:57 PM
#102
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
NOW!! ONTO ENDTANK CONFIGURATION and Fab (or cast).. Pictures please first, then we'll go into further theory. N3VER already went into his personal reasons for not using backdoor.
I'll start off with a picture of my personal one.
With Front bumper off
With Front bumper on
I'll start off with a picture of my personal one.
With Front bumper off
With Front bumper on
07-29-2012, 06:17 PM
#103
DO IT ON ALL FOURS
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
Yes, that's true... I'm not modelling pressure drop. I can tell you that I would expect pressure drop to scale with dynamic pressure (density*velocity^2), so based on the passage area of the core (~thickness x height) you could come up with a basic pressure loss model pretty easily. I will say though, I've done some intercooler end tank analysis and I would worry more about the losses in poorly designed tanks than I would worry about loss due to adding internal cooling fins.
Regarding the first plot; yes a 1" increase in thickness will give you more performance than a 1" increase in height or length. The reason for this is pretty simple. If you have a 3" thick core and you go to a 4" thick core, the physical size increase of the intercooler is more significant than adding 1" of length onto a 24" long core. I can clarify this if I'm explaining it poorly.
If you look at it in terms of a constant intercooler size (LxWxH), then height and thickness trade about evenly.
It's an interesting phenomenon; when you make a core thicker you add surface area (good), however you drop velocity (and thus heat transfer coefficient ) but your mass flow rate per passage is the same. When you add height (rows), your velocity also goes down, you have the same surface area per row, but you have less flow per passage so less heat is carried into each row. When you add length, you add surface area but maintain velocity and mass flow... but eventually you run into a diminishing temperature gradient between the charge air and ambient.
Regarding the first plot; yes a 1" increase in thickness will give you more performance than a 1" increase in height or length. The reason for this is pretty simple. If you have a 3" thick core and you go to a 4" thick core, the physical size increase of the intercooler is more significant than adding 1" of length onto a 24" long core. I can clarify this if I'm explaining it poorly.
If you look at it in terms of a constant intercooler size (LxWxH), then height and thickness trade about evenly.
It's an interesting phenomenon; when you make a core thicker you add surface area (good), however you drop velocity (and thus heat transfer coefficient ) but your mass flow rate per passage is the same. When you add height (rows), your velocity also goes down, you have the same surface area per row, but you have less flow per passage so less heat is carried into each row. When you add length, you add surface area but maintain velocity and mass flow... but eventually you run into a diminishing temperature gradient between the charge air and ambient.
Also, most people don't have "millions of dollars" in equipment to do what you are talking about.
07-29-2012, 11:28 PM
#104
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
NOW!! ONTO ENDTANK CONFIGURATION and Fab (or cast).. Pictures please first, then we'll go into further theory. N3VER already went into his personal reasons for not using backdoor.
I'll start off with a picture of my personal one.
With Front bumper off
With Front bumper on
I'll start off with a picture of my personal one.
With Front bumper off
With Front bumper on
What intercooler is that?
07-30-2012, 07:55 AM
#106
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Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
I'm not suggesting that anybody spend any money or do any elaborate testing. In fact, for 99% of the people out there, my recommendation would be to go online, go to the track, go to your local shops and figure out what types and sizes of intercoolers other people are using to make the power that you are looking for and base your setup off of that. For the 1% that want to get the last ounce of performance out of their setup... that's when you can bring in math/science. I do agree that this thread may be getting a over-teched for the interest of most people... apologies to Shodan for that.
I reread your post on the first page, and I really don't disagree with any of your conclusions. In fact, I added my plots not to contradict your advice, but to add to it. I figured that some people would want to know not just that something was better, but exactly how much better it could be. Example: If I buy a new intercooler that is 1" taller, will I reduce my intake temps 5 degrees or 50 degrees? I hoped I could add some input that would allow people to make more informed decisions.
The only thing you've said thus far that I strongly disagree with is the comment about theory going out the window. If the theory doesn't match the real world experience, then the theory sucked. I mentioned that WE do rigorous testing to support my position that if the theory is sound, your paper/computer models will match well with real world experience.
07-30-2012, 09:10 AM
#107
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Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
Here's mine. Guess that core Shodan, it's your favorite. 
Once summer finals are over, I'm getting onto the endtanks. They will be backdoor, and this is why.
Minor losses due to a sharp 90 degree mitered bend, KL = 1.1 (head loss)
Minor losses due to a smooth 90 degree bend, KL = .3 (head loss)
Now, considering most people need to make a total of 270 degree bends to get to the side of their intercooler (think out towards frame rail, and 180 around framerail) that means that you can take that KL and multiply it by 3, for a KL of .9
Better, yes, but with the extension of more pipe your losses due to pipe friction would bring you right about at the same point as you are with a backdoor setup. Take a backdoor form it in with even a quick 45 (thus dropping your KL) and you've made it more efficient than going around the intercooler to come into the side.
I could work out some rough math for it to get an idea of how the system would behave, but it's really very little of a difference in the end. Not to mention, any pressure losses that you are seeing in your system you can make up for by moving your wastegate reference source to the intake manifold and having the turbo respond to pressures seen there instead of inside of the compressor housing.
Oh, and I will absolutely be fabbing my own out of .125 (1/8") sheet metal.
Once summer finals are over, I'm getting onto the endtanks. They will be backdoor, and this is why.
Minor losses due to a sharp 90 degree mitered bend, KL = 1.1 (head loss)
Minor losses due to a smooth 90 degree bend, KL = .3 (head loss)
Now, considering most people need to make a total of 270 degree bends to get to the side of their intercooler (think out towards frame rail, and 180 around framerail) that means that you can take that KL and multiply it by 3, for a KL of .9
Better, yes, but with the extension of more pipe your losses due to pipe friction would bring you right about at the same point as you are with a backdoor setup. Take a backdoor form it in with even a quick 45 (thus dropping your KL) and you've made it more efficient than going around the intercooler to come into the side.
I could work out some rough math for it to get an idea of how the system would behave, but it's really very little of a difference in the end. Not to mention, any pressure losses that you are seeing in your system you can make up for by moving your wastegate reference source to the intake manifold and having the turbo respond to pressures seen there instead of inside of the compressor housing.
Oh, and I will absolutely be fabbing my own out of .125 (1/8") sheet metal.
07-30-2012, 09:11 AM
#108
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
I feel like you're intentionally misinterpreting what I'm saying in an effort to make me sound ridiculous, lol.
I'm not suggesting that anybody spend any money or do any elaborate testing. In fact, for 99% of the people out there, my recommendation would be to go online, go to the track, go to your local shops and figure out what types and sizes of intercoolers other people are using to make the power that you are looking for and base your setup off of that. For the 1% that want to get the last ounce of performance out of their setup... that's when you can bring in math/science. I do agree that this thread may be getting a over-teched for the interest of most people... apologies to Shodan for that.
I reread your post on the first page, and I really don't disagree with any of your conclusions. In fact, I added my plots not to contradict your advice, but to add to it. I figured that some people would want to know not just that something was better, but exactly how much better it could be. Example: If I buy a new intercooler that is 1" taller, will I reduce my intake temps 5 degrees or 50 degrees? I hoped I could add some input that would allow people to make more informed decisions.
The only thing you've said thus far that I strongly disagree with is the comment about theory going out the window. If the theory doesn't match the real world experience, then the theory sucked. I mentioned that WE do rigorous testing to support my position that if the theory is sound, your paper/computer models will match well with real world experience.
I'm not suggesting that anybody spend any money or do any elaborate testing. In fact, for 99% of the people out there, my recommendation would be to go online, go to the track, go to your local shops and figure out what types and sizes of intercoolers other people are using to make the power that you are looking for and base your setup off of that. For the 1% that want to get the last ounce of performance out of their setup... that's when you can bring in math/science. I do agree that this thread may be getting a over-teched for the interest of most people... apologies to Shodan for that.
I reread your post on the first page, and I really don't disagree with any of your conclusions. In fact, I added my plots not to contradict your advice, but to add to it. I figured that some people would want to know not just that something was better, but exactly how much better it could be. Example: If I buy a new intercooler that is 1" taller, will I reduce my intake temps 5 degrees or 50 degrees? I hoped I could add some input that would allow people to make more informed decisions.
The only thing you've said thus far that I strongly disagree with is the comment about theory going out the window. If the theory doesn't match the real world experience, then the theory sucked. I mentioned that WE do rigorous testing to support my position that if the theory is sound, your paper/computer models will match well with real world experience.
. I do see where you're coming from. Throwing in a few calculated plots can show the difference between what exactly works and by how much, and gets more in-depth about where we should focus should we want to extract every itty bitty ounce of efficiency (which most of us can't afford anyway). So.. you gotta remember, other than you, me, N3V3R, and a couple of others, the basic principles will suffice, since they will never do the calculations you and I are willing to do.. because we can. Now... NO MORE BICKERING!!!
Back to Endtanks!!! Let's Discuss and talk!! who's fabbing? who's using cast? Let's get it moving!!
07-30-2012, 09:13 AM
#109
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
Here's mine. Guess that core Shodan, it's your favorite.
Once summer finals are over, I'm getting onto the endtanks. They will be backdoor, and this is why.
Minor losses due to a sharp 90 degree mitered bend, KL = 1.1 (head loss)
Minor losses due to a smooth 90 degree bend, KL = .3 (head loss)
Now, considering most people need to make a total of 270 degree bends to get to the side of their intercooler (think out towards frame rail, and 180 around framerail) that means that you can take that KL and multiply it by 3, for a KL of .9
Better, yes, but with the extension of more pipe your losses due to pipe friction would bring you right about at the same point as you are with a backdoor setup. Take a backdoor form it in with even a quick 45 (thus dropping your KL) and you've made it more efficient than going around the intercooler to come into the side.
I could work out some rough math for it to get an idea of how the system would behave, but it's really very little of a difference in the end. Not to mention, any pressure losses that you are seeing in your system you can make up for by moving your wastegate reference source to the intake manifold and having the turbo respond to pressures seen there instead of inside of the compressor housing.
Once summer finals are over, I'm getting onto the endtanks. They will be backdoor, and this is why.
Minor losses due to a sharp 90 degree mitered bend, KL = 1.1 (head loss)
Minor losses due to a smooth 90 degree bend, KL = .3 (head loss)
Now, considering most people need to make a total of 270 degree bends to get to the side of their intercooler (think out towards frame rail, and 180 around framerail) that means that you can take that KL and multiply it by 3, for a KL of .9
Better, yes, but with the extension of more pipe your losses due to pipe friction would bring you right about at the same point as you are with a backdoor setup. Take a backdoor form it in with even a quick 45 (thus dropping your KL) and you've made it more efficient than going around the intercooler to come into the side.
I could work out some rough math for it to get an idea of how the system would behave, but it's really very little of a difference in the end. Not to mention, any pressure losses that you are seeing in your system you can make up for by moving your wastegate reference source to the intake manifold and having the turbo respond to pressures seen there instead of inside of the compressor housing.
07-30-2012, 09:20 AM
#110
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Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
Yeah it's the 4.5" 1000hp Garrett core.
I'm hoping to be able to build a nice contouring endtank on the right side, however the left I have some serious space restraints to try and get back up into the throttle body so it will be interesting for sure. I may even just build the endtank to meet into the throttle body directly.
Funny thing is, a lot of the engineering that we'd all like to put into our cars are nearly impossible to work with the space constraints, haha.
I'm hoping to be able to build a nice contouring endtank on the right side, however the left I have some serious space restraints to try and get back up into the throttle body so it will be interesting for sure. I may even just build the endtank to meet into the throttle body directly.
Funny thing is, a lot of the engineering that we'd all like to put into our cars are nearly impossible to work with the space constraints, haha.
07-30-2012, 10:26 AM
#111
DO IT ON ALL FOURS
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
One thing I wanted to comment to what "SovXietDay" said...
This is assUming a traditional setup is being used. There are many ways around this even in a FWD configuration. Front mount and side mount settings being a couple of them. Sure, it may not always be ideal, but I am willing to build the harder setup.
For end tanks, I personally prefer cast end tanks, as was one of my intercoolers was shown on the first page. The transitions or smoother and every bend that the air has to "catch" on has turbulence. Turbulence can lead more friction/more heat. Call me crazy, but the measured difference makes me feel this way.
Just for fun sometime - you guys should blow air through different opjects in varying length. The force/turbulence of each might just surprise you. As well as the sound/harmonics/reversion.
Regardless, any tapered setup is better than a brick wall approach (beating up back door's again hehe), but as stated before in some setups it is unavoidable by choice… One can always just turn up the boost to compensate, but at what cost to IATs and the likes?
This is assUming a traditional setup is being used. There are many ways around this even in a FWD configuration. Front mount and side mount settings being a couple of them. Sure, it may not always be ideal, but I am willing to build the harder setup.
For end tanks, I personally prefer cast end tanks, as was one of my intercoolers was shown on the first page. The transitions or smoother and every bend that the air has to "catch" on has turbulence. Turbulence can lead more friction/more heat. Call me crazy, but the measured difference makes me feel this way.
Just for fun sometime - you guys should blow air through different opjects in varying length. The force/turbulence of each might just surprise you. As well as the sound/harmonics/reversion.
Regardless, any tapered setup is better than a brick wall approach (beating up back door's again hehe), but as stated before in some setups it is unavoidable by choice…
One can always just turn up the boost to compensate, but at what cost to IATs and the likes?
07-31-2012, 04:35 PM
#113
DO IT ON ALL FOURS
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
No, remove it or GTFO. We have gotten too far off topic as it is an most people (like yourself) aren't even adding a single thing to this thread. It's basically 3-4 of us talking about things we already know. Participate kids.
07-31-2012, 07:01 PM
#114
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
Shodan, why did you use an image of bar and plate cores when describing tube and fin? Also, tube and fin has the advantage of allowing the air to pass through to the radiator more easily. (It's more aerodynamic.) I've read conflicting information about the durability of tube and fin vs. bar and plate. Tube and fin is the strongest, especially extruded, which is what PWR uses:
http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm
http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm
You have to understand that "strongest" is a very subjective term.
rudebwoy: I appreciate you trying to add to the discussion. But if you could, please add to the actual discussion not just show a set of cast tanks you have to try and sell them. we all know that everyone has a price when they need something, but keep that to the FS: forums, ok?
07-31-2012, 09:33 PM
#115
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
I see both sides to alot of these debates, especially in regards to endtank design. Lets just say i've known Leebro61 for quite awhile I know the time he's spent on some of this stuff, especially as its really nothing more than personal value to him. I find alot of his information very interesting, although he has to dumb it down quite a bit for me
With that said, i believe a good core and some strong endtanks ( i like using cast for most stuff) will suit just about everyone's needs. I'm personally a fan of Garrett cores and won't use anything else, I've seen results first hand, especially here in the lovely AZ weather.
I have also built a few "custom" setups that i thought came out pretty good, however they are quite time consuming...
I know the time he's spent on some of this stuff, especially as its really nothing more than personal value to him. I find alot of his information very interesting, although he has to dumb it down quite a bit for me With that said, i believe a good core and some strong endtanks ( i like using cast for most stuff) will suit just about everyone's needs. I'm personally a fan of Garrett cores and won't use anything else, I've seen results first hand, especially here in the lovely AZ weather. I have also built a few "custom" setups that i thought came out pretty good, however they are quite time consuming...
08-01-2012, 10:08 AM
#121
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
I have an Extreme Turbo Systems Intercooler.
It is their Cheap Cast EndTank FMIC Core is 4X12X24.
We use All of their stuff on our Evo customer cars and our personal cars. Nothing bad to say about them at all.
My Car:
It is their Cheap Cast EndTank FMIC Core is 4X12X24.
We use All of their stuff on our Evo customer cars and our personal cars. Nothing bad to say about them at all.
My Car:
08-01-2012, 01:42 PM
#123
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
They use an off set and staggered fin pack, Bar and plate core, they also use smaller charge rows which gives them more heat transfer plates (plates on the bottom and top of the charge row).
The picture above shows our redesigned cores with the smaller charge rows vs the garrett intercooler. Most DSM guys know that the Garrett cores are prone to overheating the radiator since they do not let enough air through to the radiator.
This picture illustrates the difference between our fin pack and Garrett. We use smaller charge rows but a less dense fin pack to allow more air through core while maintaining great heat transfer due to the extra heat transfer plates we have by having more charge rows. (this is the plate on the top and bottom of the charge row where heat transfer takes place)
By having more charge rows we can loosen up the internal fin pack which gives us less pressure drop while still maintaining optimal heat transfer area with the extra charge rows.
Our cores use an offset and staggered fin pack which forces air to split multiple times prior to leaving (resulting in lower intake air temps). This is very important vs the ebay intercoolers which have straight through internal fins and the air passes direcetly through the intercooler. (higer intake air temps)
We build and manufacturer our products in house.
The picture above shows our redesigned cores with the smaller charge rows vs the garrett intercooler. Most DSM guys know that the Garrett cores are prone to overheating the radiator since they do not let enough air through to the radiator.
This picture illustrates the difference between our fin pack and Garrett. We use smaller charge rows but a less dense fin pack to allow more air through core while maintaining great heat transfer due to the extra heat transfer plates we have by having more charge rows. (this is the plate on the top and bottom of the charge row where heat transfer takes place)
By having more charge rows we can loosen up the internal fin pack which gives us less pressure drop while still maintaining optimal heat transfer area with the extra charge rows.
Our cores use an offset and staggered fin pack which forces air to split multiple times prior to leaving (resulting in lower intake air temps). This is very important vs the ebay intercoolers which have straight through internal fins and the air passes direcetly through the intercooler. (higer intake air temps)
We build and manufacturer our products in house.
08-01-2012, 01:44 PM
#124
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
We work very close with ETS in the Evo/DSM world. We are about 15 mins from them and are pretty good friends with everyone there.
08-01-2012, 02:11 PM
#125
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
The picture above shows our redesigned cores with the smaller charge rows vs the garrett intercooler. Most DSM guys know that the Garrett cores are prone to overheating the radiator since they do not let enough air through to the radiator.
Hmm.....I wonder if this is why my radiator has such a hard time keeping my car cool? I have a precision intercooler which uses Garrett cores right?
Hmm.....I wonder if this is why my radiator has such a hard time keeping my car cool? I have a precision intercooler which uses Garrett cores right?
