Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
07-27-2012, 12:28 PM
#77
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Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
I normally don't start a lot of topics here, and I know personally which ones I would use.. *cough* (Garrett) *cough*. But at the same time, many people run different types of intercoolers for a variety of reasons.
I'd like to see some intercoolers, whether they be custom end tanked, air-to-air, air-to-water, tube and varied-finned, bar & plate, etc. Let's make this forum back into tech-related material again, so that everyone can benefit.
Oh yeah, one last thing. I could give less than a crap about how little or how much you paid for it. I'm looking at design and efficiency of each kind from a variety of manufacturers. Do me a great favor.. Add some eye-candy to the mix will ya? And for god's sake, KEEP IT CLEAN!! No insulting one another....needlessly.
I'd like to see some options, opinions (read carefully of the difference boys & girls), and why you chose what you did BESIDE COST. I'll add some tech as we go along.. I don't care about that.. If you're broke, you're broke, no need to make a song about it.
So, who wants to start off?
I'd like to see some intercoolers, whether they be custom end tanked, air-to-air, air-to-water, tube and varied-finned, bar & plate, etc. Let's make this forum back into tech-related material again, so that everyone can benefit.
Oh yeah, one last thing. I could give less than a crap about how little or how much you paid for it. I'm looking at design and efficiency of each kind from a variety of manufacturers. Do me a great favor.. Add some eye-candy to the mix will ya? And for god's sake, KEEP IT CLEAN!! No insulting one another....needlessly.
I'd like to see some options, opinions (read carefully of the difference boys & girls), and why you chose what you did BESIDE COST. I'll add some tech as we go along.. I don't care about that.. If you're broke, you're broke, no need to make a song about it.
So, who wants to start off?
Where's da tech at???
07-27-2012, 12:33 PM
#78
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Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
07-27-2012, 12:38 PM
#79
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
Well, then I guess I wasted my time on page 3 (that's where turbohatch96y7 should check).
Whether or not current Intercooler technology has been refined was not the point at issue with creating this thread; It was about going back to basics and understanding the differences and types that are out there. Many people on this forum and other still don't understand the underlying principles and effect of WHAT an intercooler does, and how one goes about creating an informative criteria onto which one can make an effective choice.
There's not always a set of "numbers" for power that are created on technical threads. I know some of the more hardcore people want that, but the truth is the result is not always emphirical in a way that the general public understands. Hell, even I don't want to get into the calculations sometimes, even if I know there is a more than positive result than without it.
I guess next time I won't put any effort into showing technical aspects of anything any longer. That way I'll get less complaints. We'll just let this go to hell like the rest of these threads, show a bunch of pictures and dynos, and be bored once again.
That just hurt..
Last edited by TheShodan; 07-27-2012 at 04:42 PM.
07-27-2012, 12:52 PM
#80
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
I've found it quite helpful to be honest. Reading though this has helped me decide on the intercooler I want as I was totally clueless. I'm going to purchase the Garrett core GT-500 intercooler from GO-AUTOWORKS. 
07-27-2012, 02:42 PM
#81
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Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
what a waste of a post, at least he put the effort in on page 3 with 'tech' unlike you guys, absolutely no point of your post, and not everyone has been around the scene for 10-15 yrs. what technology has been figured out? 'x amount of hp you need x big cooler'?? come on man
07-27-2012, 05:48 PM
#83
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Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
Haha, you really failed to read page 1. Anyways, wow, people take offense xtremely easy...
"The Shodan" - I guess I missed your true intentions here. Some of the most basic types of intercoolers have been around for over 100 years. Given their initial purpose wasn't what they are today, the technology has been evolving ever since. It has since fallen off in the last decade. I guess when you have been around the car industry for decades you see all the forgotten trends that get repeated. I have a major distrust for "engineers" and numbers. They do help, but the real world will determine what is correct and not.
As I stated repeatedly in other threads, dyno numbers do not mean a single thing to me. Especially when you have vehicles that the dyno can no longer read.
All I am getting at is that each setup should be perfectly paired. Math will only get you so far... it takes actually putting the car to it's intended use.
Fluid Dynamics is an interesting subject. Part of it works, the other side of it is how much can you get away with. Also, we all know that the more air gets compressed the move "violent" it becomes. To aid this ANY part the air flows through should be as smooth as possible without any sharp transitions. This is why I will NEVER run a back-door intercooler. Watching other people, the turbo's seem to not last as long and the heat soak across the intercooler is worse. I have also found the smother the internal transition the (to a point) smaller intercooler can be just as effecient.
Ducting is another major area that gets over looked. This coupled with the fact that bent fins don't offer thermal transfer action. The more you seal around an intercooler the more a natural "venturi" effect will happen. As with everything, air will always take the path of least resistance. This must be taken into account along with heat soak. As stated before, the thicker the core the less it has a chance to exchange with cool air.
All of this I consider common sense and basic knowledge. Maybe my many years of exoerience get the best of me, especially in forums where people are "trying to learn". I see thingd that to me ONLY make sense, then say "that's nothing new" or "we were doing that in the '60s"... Many things are lost in time my friend. Continue on, I'll back out.
PS - No hard feelings, I'll back out of this thread now. I have been contemplating retiring from forums for some time now anyways.
"The Shodan" - I guess I missed your true intentions here. Some of the most basic types of intercoolers have been around for over 100 years. Given their initial purpose wasn't what they are today, the technology has been evolving ever since. It has since fallen off in the last decade. I guess when you have been around the car industry for decades you see all the forgotten trends that get repeated. I have a major distrust for "engineers" and numbers. They do help, but the real world will determine what is correct and not.
As I stated repeatedly in other threads, dyno numbers do not mean a single thing to me. Especially when you have vehicles that the dyno can no longer read.
All I am getting at is that each setup should be perfectly paired. Math will only get you so far... it takes actually putting the car to it's intended use.Fluid Dynamics is an interesting subject. Part of it works, the other side of it is how much can you get away with. Also, we all know that the more air gets compressed the move "violent" it becomes. To aid this ANY part the air flows through should be as smooth as possible without any sharp transitions. This is why I will NEVER run a back-door intercooler. Watching other people, the turbo's seem to not last as long and the heat soak across the intercooler is worse. I have also found the smother the internal transition the (to a point) smaller intercooler can be just as effecient.
Ducting is another major area that gets over looked. This coupled with the fact that bent fins don't offer thermal transfer action. The more you seal around an intercooler the more a natural "venturi" effect will happen. As with everything, air will always take the path of least resistance. This must be taken into account along with heat soak. As stated before, the thicker the core the less it has a chance to exchange with cool air.
All of this I consider common sense and basic knowledge. Maybe my many years of exoerience get the best of me, especially in forums where people are "trying to learn". I see thingd that to me ONLY make sense, then say "that's nothing new" or "we were doing that in the '60s"... Many things are lost in time my friend. Continue on, I'll back out.
PS - No hard feelings, I'll back out of this thread now. I have been contemplating retiring from forums for some time now anyways.
07-27-2012, 07:26 PM
#84
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
Tube-Fin Intercoolers
Let’s look at the tube-fin designs. These include the higher end companies of GReddy, HKS, and PWR. The lower end ones , which require a lot of surface area in order to cool, are the CX Racing, Johnny Race car, Godspeed, etc.
Typical tube-and-fin units utilize extruded tubes with fins pressed into place. In order to achieve strength, a thick, extruded tube must be used.
The picture below shows a fin comparison with the popular low-pressure drop, high-speed plain square fin used in CX Racing, (right) and an offset fin design used in GReddy (left) . The offset fin will allow the air to travel slower through the core (more pressure drop) but the air will have more time in the core for heat exchange. Apexi’s Delta Design also uses an off-set design that works extremely well.
http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm
Plate tube & fin cores are the physically weakest core in that we have allot more of them come through our workshop for repairs than any of the other three, & too reinforce that, they usually have a larger leak for the damage &/or the leak be further away from damaged area. The core has three components too each tube. Two stamped side plates with fine folded fins fused internally. I believe the plates are "stretched" too far to form the tank on each end, thinning the alloy to where it will crack with minor stress. They are clamped together (looking like a piano accordian) & furnace brazed.
Bar/Plate & fin cores are the second weakest, even though they are also the heaviest with a couple of the thickest components. However this is the reason for their weakness. The thin plate side walls have to fuse onto the thick plate sides to form a "tube", with both of them having to fuse onto the very thick bars to form the "header plate" for the tank to be welded to. It is hard for these three differing thickness to be held at the right temperature for the cladding to melt, ?? & fuse the surfaces together. This is where we see most of the leaks in these cores, even from new in one brand. The charge cooling fins are fused to the thin plate walls, meaning there are 5 components too each tube, a reason that these cores tend to develop a series of weeps along the "header" seam.
Folded tube & Extruded tube seem to be of similar strength although with two tube sides, fine fused internal fins & two header plate joints, folded tube should be weaker with 5 components. However, I have seen both types of cores come in for repairs quite beat up & out of shape, without leaking. Eventually the hot/cold & pressure/vacuum cycles will open up cracks.
The Extruded tube core is possibly the strongest core as it only has three components in it's construction, a tube & two header plates. It is also the most consistent performing unit as the internal charge air cooling ribs are one piece with the tube walls whereas the above three cores have tubes with fins fused too them & if the specifications vary in production for any reason ( & it does occasionally), then an area of fins can exist where they are not in full contact with the tube wall, bottling up the heat in that area. The same also happens with external ambient finning, although this is common to all four cores & can be found with a simple visual/physical check.
Bar/Plate & fin cores are the second weakest, even though they are also the heaviest with a couple of the thickest components. However this is the reason for their weakness. The thin plate side walls have to fuse onto the thick plate sides to form a "tube", with both of them having to fuse onto the very thick bars to form the "header plate" for the tank to be welded to. It is hard for these three differing thickness to be held at the right temperature for the cladding to melt, ?? & fuse the surfaces together. This is where we see most of the leaks in these cores, even from new in one brand. The charge cooling fins are fused to the thin plate walls, meaning there are 5 components too each tube, a reason that these cores tend to develop a series of weeps along the "header" seam.
Folded tube & Extruded tube seem to be of similar strength although with two tube sides, fine fused internal fins & two header plate joints, folded tube should be weaker with 5 components. However, I have seen both types of cores come in for repairs quite beat up & out of shape, without leaking. Eventually the hot/cold & pressure/vacuum cycles will open up cracks.
The Extruded tube core is possibly the strongest core as it only has three components in it's construction, a tube & two header plates. It is also the most consistent performing unit as the internal charge air cooling ribs are one piece with the tube walls whereas the above three cores have tubes with fins fused too them & if the specifications vary in production for any reason ( & it does occasionally), then an area of fins can exist where they are not in full contact with the tube wall, bottling up the heat in that area. The same also happens with external ambient finning, although this is common to all four cores & can be found with a simple visual/physical check.
07-27-2012, 07:27 PM
#85
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Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
Well, then I guess I wasted my time on page 3 (that's where turbohatch96y7 should check).
Whether or not current Intercooler technology has been refined was not the point at issue with creating this thread; It was about going back to basics and understanding the differences and types that are out there. Many people on this forum and other still don't understand the underlying principles and effect of WHAT an intercooler does, and how one goes about creating an informative criteria onto which one can make an effective choice.
There's not always a set of "numbers" for power that are created on technical threads. I know some of the more hardcore people want that, but the truth is the result is not always emphirical in a way that the general public understands. Hell, even I don't want to get into the calculations sometimes, even if I know there is a more than positive result than without it.
I guess next time I won't put any effort into showing technical aspects of anything any longer. That way I'll get less complaints. We'll just let this go to hell like the rest of these threads, show a bunch of pictures and dynos, and be bored once again.
That just hurt..
Whether or not current Intercooler technology has been refined was not the point at issue with creating this thread; It was about going back to basics and understanding the differences and types that are out there. Many people on this forum and other still don't understand the underlying principles and effect of WHAT an intercooler does, and how one goes about creating an informative criteria onto which one can make an effective choice.
There's not always a set of "numbers" for power that are created on technical threads. I know some of the more hardcore people want that, but the truth is the result is not always emphirical in a way that the general public understands. Hell, even I don't want to get into the calculations sometimes, even if I know there is a more than positive result than without it.
I guess next time I won't put any effort into showing technical aspects of anything any longer. That way I'll get less complaints. We'll just let this go to hell like the rest of these threads, show a bunch of pictures and dynos, and be bored once again.
That just hurt..
Thanks for the post on page 3. I actually learned quite a bit about the manufacturing and louvre design iterations (past and present). As far as tech content, I agree with your general points about fin count, height vs. thickness, etc.
With that said, I think it's easy to come up with qualitative answers such as: "more fins per inch is better", or "go taller, not thicker", etc. Its quite a bit more difficult to make quantitative statements such as: "Adding one inch of height is worth 5% in intercooler effectiveness" or "Going from a low fin density to a high fin density core is worth xx% in effectiveness".
I have very little real estate available in the front of my car, and I knew that I would have to make trade offs (height for thickness, length for height, etc.). With that in mind, I went and built a thermal model of the heat pathes in an intercooler so I could answer the following questions for my own benefit:
1) Horizontal flow vs. Vertical flow vs. Dual Pass
2) What is fin count really worth? (low density ebay cores vs. high fin count Garrett, etc.)
3) Increasing height vs. width vs. length, what is the strongest performance driver?
4) Intercooler performance lapse as a function of altitude, ambient temp, boost pressure, etc.
Obviously I already had formed an opinion before I made/ran the model, but I still learned quite a bit with this exercise.
As an example, here is a plot of intercooler efficiency delta for various changes in core geometry. You would read this as: 1 inch increase in length is worth 1% in intercooler effectiveness, etc. The 0,0 point is a precision 600hp core, so the derivative will be slightly different depending on your baseline. I'm intentionally doing this on a delta basis since the heat transfer correlations I'm using are primarily empirical...
I'd be happy to share/discuss the rest of my results, but I don't want to bomb your thread, especially if people aren't interested anyway.
Last edited by Leebro61; 07-28-2012 at 01:50 PM.
07-27-2012, 07:36 PM
#86
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Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
Shodan,
Thanks for the post on page 3. I actually learned quite a bit about the manufacturing and louvre design iterations (past and present). As far as tech content, I agree with your general points about fin count, height vs. thickness, etc.
With that said, I think it's easy to come up with qualitative answers such as: "more fins per inch is better", or "go taller, not thicker", etc. Its quite a bit more difficult to make quantitative statements such as: "Adding one inch of height is worth 5% in intercooler effectiveness" or "Going from a low fin density to a high fin density core is worth xx% in effectiveness".
I have very little real estate available in the front of my car, and I knew that I would have to make trade offs (height for thickness, length for height, etc.). With that in mind, I went and built a thermal model of the heat pathes in an intercooler so I could answer the following questions for my own benefit:
1) Horizontal flow vs. Vertical flow vs. Dual Pass
2) What is fin count really worth? (low density ebay cores vs. high fin count Garrett, etc.)
3) Increasing height vs. width vs. length, what is the strongest performance driver?
4) Intercooler performance lapse as a function of altitude, ambient temp, boost pressure, etc.
Obviously I already had formed an opinion before I made/ran the model, but I still learned quite a bit with this exercise.
As an example, here is a plot of intercooler efficiency delta for various changes in core geometry. You would read this as: 1% increase in length is worth 1% in intercooler effectiveness, etc. The 0,0 point is a precision 600hp core, so the derivative will be slightly different depending on your baseline. I'm intentionally doing this on a delta basis since the heat transfer correlations I'm using are primarily empirical...
I'd be happy to share/discuss the rest of my results, but I don't want to bomb your thread, especially if people aren't interested anyway.
Thanks for the post on page 3. I actually learned quite a bit about the manufacturing and louvre design iterations (past and present). As far as tech content, I agree with your general points about fin count, height vs. thickness, etc.
With that said, I think it's easy to come up with qualitative answers such as: "more fins per inch is better", or "go taller, not thicker", etc. Its quite a bit more difficult to make quantitative statements such as: "Adding one inch of height is worth 5% in intercooler effectiveness" or "Going from a low fin density to a high fin density core is worth xx% in effectiveness".
I have very little real estate available in the front of my car, and I knew that I would have to make trade offs (height for thickness, length for height, etc.). With that in mind, I went and built a thermal model of the heat pathes in an intercooler so I could answer the following questions for my own benefit:
1) Horizontal flow vs. Vertical flow vs. Dual Pass
2) What is fin count really worth? (low density ebay cores vs. high fin count Garrett, etc.)
3) Increasing height vs. width vs. length, what is the strongest performance driver?
4) Intercooler performance lapse as a function of altitude, ambient temp, boost pressure, etc.
Obviously I already had formed an opinion before I made/ran the model, but I still learned quite a bit with this exercise.
As an example, here is a plot of intercooler efficiency delta for various changes in core geometry. You would read this as: 1% increase in length is worth 1% in intercooler effectiveness, etc. The 0,0 point is a precision 600hp core, so the derivative will be slightly different depending on your baseline. I'm intentionally doing this on a delta basis since the heat transfer correlations I'm using are primarily empirical...
I'd be happy to share/discuss the rest of my results, but I don't want to bomb your thread, especially if people aren't interested anyway.
Mmmmmmm tech I love it!
07-27-2012, 11:15 PM
#87
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
I think the problem with most of these guys on H-T they do not know what it takes to put a car together, simply because they get a bunch of cash drop their car off at a shop and pick it up a few weeks later, they have no idea about the technical parts, and effort it takes to fit a universal part, most of these guys if their car quits on them for a disconnected sensor they would not have a clue what happen. Just saying! thats why everytime someone ask a tech question all you see is the same people telling them to search, or the thread goes unanswered.
I think this thread was very helpful even though I had my intercooler design figured out already, it can help someone in the future.
I am not saying no one on here knows anything just saying the knowledgeable guys are either banned, or just discouraged. I can count on my hands the ones that are still helping people technically.
I think this thread was very helpful even though I had my intercooler design figured out already, it can help someone in the future.
I am not saying no one on here knows anything just saying the knowledgeable guys are either banned, or just discouraged. I can count on my hands the ones that are still helping people technically.
07-28-2012, 01:54 AM
#88
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Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
It's nice to have new threads like this to encourage discussion and so forth, not to mention the eye candy.
With that being said, I agree that intercoolers and turbochargers have been around for many decades and relatively speaking things haven't changed all that much. Stock applications and top racing teams are good places to look for examples because they have engineers working on this, whether from the 80s 90s or today.
It's also good to provide details like pictures of what's current to keep up on the best products and such. At least a few years ago there used to be trends like 'this year's technology offers x% efficiency increase over last year's model,' but it's basically all the same stuff and racing is a huge money pit.
Also Johnny Race Car intercoolers were awesome.
Some good points were made about empirical data. In other words observation - whatever works. You can measure the air temperature and pressure at the turbo outlet and measure the air temperature and pressure at the intake manifold - if the intercooler cools the air without losing too much pressure then it works and the rest isn't really important.
With that being said, I agree that intercoolers and turbochargers have been around for many decades and relatively speaking things haven't changed all that much. Stock applications and top racing teams are good places to look for examples because they have engineers working on this, whether from the 80s 90s or today.
It's also good to provide details like pictures of what's current to keep up on the best products and such. At least a few years ago there used to be trends like 'this year's technology offers x% efficiency increase over last year's model,' but it's basically all the same stuff and racing is a huge money pit.
Also Johnny Race Car intercoolers were awesome.
Some good points were made about empirical data. In other words observation - whatever works. You can measure the air temperature and pressure at the turbo outlet and measure the air temperature and pressure at the intake manifold - if the intercooler cools the air without losing too much pressure then it works and the rest isn't really important.
Last edited by eastbay92cx; 07-28-2012 at 02:15 AM.
07-28-2012, 04:34 AM
#89
DO IT ON ALL FOURS
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
Oops... but this is exactly what I was talking about ^^^… "Bench racing only gets you so far so fast."
Sorry... hehe. Forums can get addicting.
Sorry... hehe. Forums can get addicting.
07-28-2012, 04:57 AM
#90
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
Ducting is another major area that gets over looked. This coupled with the fact that bent fins don't offer thermal transfer action. The more you seal around an intercooler the more a natural "venturi" effect will happen. As with everything, air will always take the path of least resistance. This must be taken into account along with heat soak. As stated before, the thicker the core the less it has a chance to exchange with cool air.
Yesss, so happy this is brought up.
The dense cores need help to get the air through. Shrouds and ducting is something you literally never see in builds.
07-28-2012, 05:11 AM
#91
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
Ok. Ok. Things are looking up, here.. I certainly welcome all points of view regarding what needs to be given the most attention to.. I just didn't want to be the only person giving input here..plus have some eye candy too.
07-28-2012, 06:04 PM
#92
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Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
Here is a comparison I made of a Garrett core vs. a generic CXRacing "ebay" style core. The ONLY difference in the simulation is the fin count (input as x fins per inch). I'm using the same empirical heat transfer coefficient correlation in both models, so I'm not offering any credit for stepped fin designs or internal geometry changes to enhance heat transfer. I'm also not debiting the ebay core's thermal conductivity, which is probably less than that of the Garrett core (speculation on my part).
This is a GT35R compressor at 18 psig, 2.8L motor @ 7000 rpm, 70 mph vehicle speed, 70 deg F ambient day... 8x24x3.5" intercooler core. No corrections for bumper blockage, "induction" effects, etc. Questions/comments welcome...
07-28-2012, 06:14 PM
#93
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Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
As stated before and as you clearly stated - simulation…
When it's on the vehicle a theory can greatly change. I operate on trial and error, not punching numbers into a computer. I have seen things fail when the computer said the part/metal would be IMPOSSIBLE to fail. I am not discrediting your time or work, but as I have said before - paper lies. It's a good beginning point, but there are way too many variables that the computer doesn't account for. One of the biggest being quality control.
It still is a very rough starting point, just like an artist sketch. I am just more of the blank drawing board to masterpiece type. Hehe...
When it's on the vehicle a theory can greatly change. I operate on trial and error, not punching numbers into a computer. I have seen things fail when the computer said the part/metal would be IMPOSSIBLE to fail. I am not discrediting your time or work, but as I have said before - paper lies. It's a good beginning point, but there are way too many variables that the computer doesn't account for. One of the biggest being quality control.
It still is a very rough starting point, just like an artist sketch. I am just more of the blank drawing board to masterpiece type. Hehe...
07-28-2012, 06:41 PM
#94
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Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
As stated before and as you clearly stated - simulation…
When it's on the vehicle a theory can greatly change. I operate on trial and error, not punching numbers into a computer. I have seen things fail when the computer said the part/metal would be IMPOSSIBLE to fail. I am not discrediting your time or work, but as I have said before - paper lies. It's a good beginning point, but there are way too many variables that the computer doesn't account for. One of the biggest being quality control.
It still is a very rough starting point, just like an artist sketch. I am just more of the blank drawing board to masterpiece type. Hehe...
When it's on the vehicle a theory can greatly change. I operate on trial and error, not punching numbers into a computer. I have seen things fail when the computer said the part/metal would be IMPOSSIBLE to fail. I am not discrediting your time or work, but as I have said before - paper lies. It's a good beginning point, but there are way too many variables that the computer doesn't account for. One of the biggest being quality control.
It still is a very rough starting point, just like an artist sketch. I am just more of the blank drawing board to masterpiece type. Hehe...
With regard to your other comment, "the computer" accounts for everything that the programmer tells it to account for. If a model fails or predicts garbage, it's because the person that programmed it either a) didn't understand the physics he was aware of OR b) didn't account for all of the physics. At my work, we make lots of predictions with various amounts of fidelity (1D, 2D, 3D, 4D) and then spend millions testing... and we usually match our predictions pretty well!
It's all about knowing and understanding your assumptions... but yes, any sort of simulation is no substitute for actual testing/iteration
07-28-2012, 07:01 PM
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Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
Your second graph doesn't show pressure drop. If you could also calculate the pressure drop for both cores and then overlay them considering horsepower vs. intake air temperature you should be able to find the sweet spot for fins per inch in this scenario.
For your first graph the steepest slope is for core thickness, so a thicker core gives a better response (drops the temperature more) than adding core height or length, yes?
For your first graph the steepest slope is for core thickness, so a thicker core gives a better response (drops the temperature more) than adding core height or length, yes?
07-28-2012, 07:22 PM
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Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
Your second graph doesn't show pressure drop. If you could also calculate the pressure drop for both cores and then overlay them considering horsepower vs. intake air temperature you should be able to find the sweet spot for fins per inch in this scenario.
For your first graph the steepest slope is for core thickness, so a thicker core gives a better response (drops the temperature more) than adding core height or length, yes?
For your first graph the steepest slope is for core thickness, so a thicker core gives a better response (drops the temperature more) than adding core height or length, yes?
Regarding the first plot; yes a 1" increase in thickness will give you more performance than a 1" increase in height or length. The reason for this is pretty simple. If you have a 3" thick core and you go to a 4" thick core, the physical size increase of the intercooler is more significant than adding 1" of length onto a 24" long core. I can clarify this if I'm explaining it poorly.
If you look at it in terms of a constant intercooler size (LxWxH), then height and thickness trade about evenly.
It's an interesting phenomenon; when you make a core thicker you add surface area (good), however you drop velocity (and thus heat transfer coefficient ) but your mass flow rate per passage is the same. When you add height (rows), your velocity also goes down, you have the same surface area per row, but you have less flow per passage so less heat is carried into each row. When you add length, you add surface area but maintain velocity and mass flow... but eventually you run into a diminishing temperature gradient between the charge air and ambient.
07-29-2012, 11:05 AM
#98
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
This information is good. however, for those of us who didn't receive the higher end of education, please mark or state specifically what each graph is supposed to represent, and what variables that you accounted for if you decided to add a calculation. Remember, what may seem "obvious" to you may not be so for the general public.
I'll also make a pictorial correction on my initial description. This thread is going to die soon, I'm afraid because there's so MUCH tech in it, no one is interested or doesn't want to take the time to understand.. So guys, step your game up on your descriptions and explanations of your technical analysis. It does nothing, if no one "gets it"..
I'll also make a pictorial correction on my initial description. This thread is going to die soon, I'm afraid because there's so MUCH tech in it, no one is interested or doesn't want to take the time to understand.. So guys, step your game up on your descriptions and explanations of your technical analysis. It does nothing, if no one "gets it"..
07-29-2012, 01:22 PM
#99
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Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
This information is good. however, for those of us who didn't receive the higher end of education, please mark or state specifically what each graph is supposed to represent, and what variables that you accounted for if you decided to add a calculation. Remember, what may seem "obvious" to you may not be so for the general public.
I'll also make a pictorial correction on my initial description. This thread is going to die soon, I'm afraid because there's so MUCH tech in it, no one is interested or doesn't want to take the time to understand.. So guys, step your game up on your descriptions and explanations of your technical analysis. It does nothing, if no one "gets it"..
I'll also make a pictorial correction on my initial description. This thread is going to die soon, I'm afraid because there's so MUCH tech in it, no one is interested or doesn't want to take the time to understand.. So guys, step your game up on your descriptions and explanations of your technical analysis. It does nothing, if no one "gets it"..
07-29-2012, 02:04 PM
#100
Re: Discussion Topic: Let's talk Intercoolers!!
That's fair. I'd encourage people to please ask questions if something isn't clear. I'm trying to be helpful here because I normally sit back and watch the companies in this industry "sell" a bunch of BS passed off as technical information/engineering to the general public when these companies obviously have a very poor understanding of the parts they are selling/making. Shodan, I'm not in any way implying that this is what you are doing, but I see it all the time on the forums and it's getting annoying.