B20VtecVillain

Ok so For years I've seen the battle and arguments go on about people who use "EBay" kits and some say their good, most say they're trash etc. I never really got into it much because I always followed the rule of thumb "you get what you pay for" and so my boosted build got a brand new GTx3076r from Garrett when it was time to buy. I have since however gotten back into touch with a friend/customer that I did an install on back in 2013 with a CX Racing turbo kit. The setup is a 1995 Civic coupe with a B18C1 swap. The kit he originally purchased included one of their hybrid t3/t04e 54trim (.63) and a cast manifold. The review is going to be in 3 parts; my initial impressions of how the install went, the power it made during the initial break-in and tune, etc. followed by some entries from the owners journal on the progress/quality of the setup after the first year and 1/2 & 12k miles and lastly how everything sits/operates to this day after ~30k miles and 3+ years.

Day One:
The kit was pretty well packaged and had all the basic components needed for a full install. Smart on the part of CX Racing was the fact that their down pipe and down pipe flange came seperated so it could be welded to fit each chassis application rather than a "one size fits all" that would in reality probably not fit anything. The turbo itself seemed halfway decent with no shaft play, casting flaws or any other abnormalities present. The oil line kit came with a restricted fitting setup which was a nice touch for a budget kit. The installation went as well as any other kits we've done, and wiTh some slight Modification of a single bracket PS was retained and AC could probably have been added as well. (The car already had a half rad, I believe Skunk2)
After getting everything hooked up and double checked it was off to the dyno for tuning. On 93 pump gas and tuning with Neptune it put down 291whp at roughly 9psi. There was some slight boost creep issues which were remedied by shortening the vaccum line to the WG from its original design. After about a month, he wanted more power already (don't we all) so back on the dyno it went and we were able to make around 330 at 12-13psi but issues of creep were coming back. Thinking this was more of an issue of WG placement on the cast manifold rather than an issue of actual WG size (35/38mm), the customer jumped back on the Interwebs and ordered a mini ram style tubular manifold and brought it to us to install. After a couple of hours we had it up and running again and with the same CX racing 38mm gate were able to accurately hold 12-12.5psi throughout. Also, with the new manifold we saw that 12psi about 300-400 RPM sooner than the previous cast manifold. At this point the customer was happy and we lost touch for a while.

Customers Journal 1.5 years after initial install, same kit, same engine/chassis:

Well I've put over 10,000 street miles and 50+ ***** to the wall passes on my setup and have to say overall I am impressed. I ended up buying yet ANOTHER manifold, this time a PLM tubular piece due to my CX Racing MiniRam cracking and giving me an exhaust leak that effected peak boost. I cannot totally blame the manufacturer though as I admit idly haven't been the best about keeping the system cool and have seen it glowing red at times after hot lapping street and test & tune runs. I also decided to upgrade to a Tial waste gate as my tuner directed me to do this when I said I wanted to try and max out my little Chinese turbo. I notice no difference in performance but he swears my old gate would not be safe for my engine, especially being a stock block so I followed his lead. My personal best thus far has been 12.2 @ 117 on street tires. Not bad for a bone stock GSR and a turbo that everyone told me not to buy. There is bo shaft play from what I can tell, and boost still comes on quickly and strong when I lay into the throttle everytime. I have been running crap oil too, Mobil Super non synthetic 10-30 but I do change it religiously every 2000-2500 miles at most. My cousin is currently running an LS with a Turbonetics 5454 kit that cost more for just his kit than mine cost paying for the kit, and tuning/install work and I still beat him every time we race! Puts a big smile on my face every time.

Now finally-present day condition:

I just had an opportunity to look at this car again this weekend. The same engine and turbo setup is present under the hood. The finish on just about all of the components has seen better days. Hot side of turbo has a build up on it of rust + dirt, charge pipes have lost their shine/luster, BOV has changed from chrome color to aluminum stock color, vaccum lines are getting weathered and feel hard with a little bit of visible cracking but doesn't seem to be leaking. Also I will mention since I have heard horror stories, the BOV flange welded into the charge pipe is still intact and has not come off or changed in any way, the welds are solid. The owner states the car now uses and/or leaks about 1/2-3/4qt of oil every 2000 miles or so. There is buildup on multiple areas of the engine block and components and although I haven't had time to diagnose for sure, I believe atleast some of the loss is coming from leaky seals/gaskets vs being burned off by the engine or turbo but I cannot say this with certainty yet. The impeller has a slight bit of wobble/play and there is a small chip on one of the fins where a tiny chunk of material is missing. The customer states he has always run an air filter on the turbo so I'm not quite sure how this happened if not for a defect. One thing I can say that was very surprising to me based on what I've heard is the seals in the turbo itself seem to still be in good order as I don't see any signs of smoking even when working it fairly hard. (As hard as you can push it at under 15psi, anyway) The intercooler has also lost a good bit of its original luster and has a few dings and dents from what I imagine is road debris, but it has never leaked and still serves its purpose. Silicone couplers are in rough shape, and the clamps are very rusted so I will be suggested replacing all of those items to the owner. While not a CX Racing product, his also budget minded PLM manifold seems to be holding up great this far. The original 2.5" DP has some surface rust, but the welds seem to still be holding up including the O2 bung. The original under hood Hallman manual boost controller was ditched in favor of a fancy in-cabin mounted digital unit, but I was told it's being used to this day with success on a friends D16 turbo hatch. Let's see that takes us to the oil lines/fittings. There are no apparent leaks present, and everything seems in good order. I do recall choosing to use our own weld on fitting for the oil pan vs the one supplied in the kit back when the original install was done but other than that everything else in the feed & return system is 100% original CX product including the internally restricted feed line which obviously works fine as there are no oil seal issues present in the turbo. Current power level is unknown at this time as the last dyno tune was not done with us, and the car is currently in need of a clutch/pressure plate so I'm not able to flog it on the rollers right now to get power figures either, but based on the customers time slips in a 2500lb coupe I'd say a little over 300whp is an accurate estimation. All told the customer has invested around $1600 in this turbo setup for parts; $650 for the original kit, $500 for the new manifolds, $200 for a new WG and about $250 for the digital boost control. This isn't counting any of the money he spent for our labor installing components nor does it count any of the cost of tuning the setup over the years. This brings me to Another point and the old adage "you have to pay to play". Even with a very budget minded kit such as this, it still was not exactly cheap to do things correctly and get boosted power. With that in mind though, I wanted to share this information with anyone who may be interested because it was still successful and well under the cost of some other "budget" alternatives that yield similar performance. I'm not advocating that everyone rush out and buy knock off turbo kits now, but this has opened my eyes for the customer/enthusiast looking for modest power levels via boosting a stock engine. Granted this is only one mans experience with one CX Racing kit and one car, it is my first personal long term experience with any of the cheap systems and I was pleasantly surprised with the outcome after hearing for years that these things blow seals, break apart and self destruct as soon as you open the box and mount the components and that's if they ever work at all. Being that that was the general consensus that I've always heard about these setups, I felt motivated to post this review which I've seen with my own eyes can indeed work for its intended purpose. (Intended purpose being low power street kits for people on a tight budget that still want to enjoy the rush of a boosted Honda)
Obviously I would never recommend throwing any of these parts on a SFWD entry or other hardcore competitive racing scene, but for an average street car at modest power levels this seems to be a viable option. After all, if the price of these kits is about the same as it was when he purchased, the original setup was good for 300whp on a stock B18C1 with pump gas and would have been a tad under $2500 to have it all purchased, shipped, installed and tuned including engine management.
Thoughts? Comments? Rants?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Not really. Good luck and God Speed to him. He used his money his way, you did, your way.

I've stopped ranting or giving a **** anymore, really. People are going to buy what they want, and if it puts the other guy out of business because they're too f**kin' broke to have a reliable kit for 10 years, that's on them. Most people on this forum don't keep their project any more than 3 years anyway. I'm going on 19 years with mine; 17 of those years turbocharged: One Mitsubishi, 3 Garretts, all lasted an average of 7 years or more. None failed and all were resold to owners who kept them 4 years or longer.

So, it is what it is... Priority is on the buyer.

B20VtecVillain

Personally I don't think the same type of customer buys an "eBay" kit as would order a "real" unit/kit from the likes of you guys at STC or similar. My way of thinking is that anyone who is trying to piece together a serious build or who is searching for serious power would not even consider a budget kit because it simply would not be able to make the numbers or last in the environment it would be needed for. Anyone looking to compete in drag racing, Autocross, road course events etc would be wise to buy quality from the gate in my opinion because I don't see there being any way a Chinese knockoff could win (or even survive for that matter) under such hard conditions. Anyone looking to be in that realm should undoubtedly go with something real and spend the money. The type of consumer I see buying the budget kits is the first time turbocharger, weekend test & tune racer, etc. Also a lot of times it tends to be a younger crowd and generally younger = less financially stable. For that group (in my opinion) it's nice to have a less expensive alternative that will still get the job done because it introduces them into the world of forced induction and will, most likely, lead them to purchase more expensive and quality components in the future as themselves and their builds progress. This is basically the sole reason I put up the little review and why I was interesting in the CX kit in the first place. Being able to have a kit that may not be top notch but will still function on a basic level & have the price tag for purchase AND installation/tuning be the same or a tad less than the price of just a higher quality kit allows a whole new demographic Into the realm of modifying and boosting cars. If even only half of those people continue on to buy real kits/components after the fact I think it is a good stepping stone. For this reason I don't see it taking money out of the pockets of any "real" turbo company because after all, anyone looking for a Silver Surfer or real GT35 is not going to settle for a $200 Chineese JB unit lol. At the same time, the customer considering a $700 turbo kit is probably not considering a $1500-2000 turbocharger either. Instead I see these entry kits as a good stepping stone to get people hooked on boost, and give the little guys a chance to get "bit by the bug", which in turn should put more money into the industry not less. That's just my opinion ofcourse, Sho you would probably know way better than me if this is actually the case.

LightningTeg

For the cost you described, you could easily buy some used higher quality components and achieved the same thing. I got my first turbo kit (Greddy) for $1000 and all I needed after was a clutch and tune.

B20VtecVillain

If you can find one in decent condition then a used name brand kit is the way to go, I aggree. However they aren't always available and there are some junk kits out there too so there can be just as much a "can of worms" buying go fast parts used from someone you don't know as there is with eBay parts. It's always a gamble with the budget stuff, that's why the big name stuff costs what it does and people still pay it (like
Me) because we are assured it will work properly and backed by good customer service.

LightningTeg

I agree. Hopefully this review helps some people make that choice.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

See that's the thing, CX racing and others have bred that type of customer: they evolved, believing that beloved lower company kits like that are the best idea to come around, instead of saving and either doing what Lightningteg desribed (using a quality kit used) as it trickles down the chain of use, or saving for the right components. Instead, the buyer has regarded even the CX Racing kit as disposable.. "I'll work on this for now, until I get some real money and do it right later". That mode of thinking hurts serious businesses because now that business can ONLY service the people that know better. that means fewer quality parts and service that trickle down the chain. Instead of a good company doing business by selling new units AND servicing the older ones, they can only operate by creating and selling the new units, because the CX Racing stuff is too cheap and not worth the repair. Why repair when the owner can just junk it, and get another cheap POS to bolt on and continue? Now, the legit business gets hurt because they can no longer service people in the long run for the better products that were released in the 1st place. It breeds inefficiency, and stunts the growth of innovation.

Why would a company invest in building a better mousetrap if CX racing or some other overseas company is just going to take the innovation, make a similar copy of it for themselves, only to lie and sell to the cheapo that doesn't know better for later? So, the company that created the design gets nothing in return, while the knock-off **** takes all the credit AND the proceeds from the cheapo.

I said I wouldn't rant, but I guess I did anyway. Now I'm to a point, I'm REALLY not giving a **** anymore. Because in the end, the cheapo gets too many choices to borrow from, while the legit enthusiast suffers.

B20VtecVillain

That's a very good point that I hadn't yet thought of Shodan, thank you. It really does suck that the supply of quality used parts seems to have dried up somewhat lately, and I never really thought of these overseas cheapo companies being the culprit but it makes a lot of sense. It does seem that the more people are buying these Chineese kits the less used name brand turbo components are on the market because as you say, they view them as disposable. I personally still wouldn't ever use a no name turbo kit because even in this review where the product "worked" it still had too many negatives for my liking. I used my Full Race ProStreet kit, which I bought new, with the Garrett turbo for a couple of years of abuse with no issues, and then swapped the entire engine/tranny/turbo setup into a different chassis and sold it, and the new owner is still flogging it to this day with no issues. I was only pushing around 450whp/13-15psi Max so nowhere near maxing out the unit (GTX3076r) however the new owner is pushing 22-24psi out of it and it's holding up great. It's also seen a ton of hot lapping and Max effort runs without proper cool down time which would probably be the end to any eBay JB turbo.
I'm also considering turning my NA B18C DC2 daily into a little basic boosted setup this summer, so I may be back in the market for turbo components for that build here soon, and even tho that will not be pushed as hard as my other one was, and I'm only seeking around 300whp, I still am not even considering a no name kit. It's just not worth the hassle and the unknown of when is it going to die. even if I don't want to spend another 5 grand on a Full Race kit, I'll do like Lightning said and buy a used kit before I would ever touch a new eBay kit. In all honesty the CX kit did better than I really thought it would, but it's still not a good choice on my book. In fact I wish they didn't exist so that more good parts would trickle down the line when people upgrade!

On a side note, how is Turbonetics quality these days? I've found a kit retailing for around $1700 with their parts as the cores. It's also a t3/t04e, 50 trim I believe. Should offer excellent spool and street friendly powerband on my relatively stock 1.8. (B18C-01 Type R valvetrain/cams, Skunk2 Intake mani, Hondata S300. )

evo_lucian

Nice review. I think some folks will never understand the concept that some people just cant afford Big name parts and just want to get their feet wet in the turbo world

LightningTeg

We get it, we are just trying to encourage those people save their money and support the companies putting in the effort for R&D and customer support.

And you'll end up spending more in the long run if you choose one of these kits off the bat, I guarantee it. Their overall quality has improved a bit I'll give them that, but its still the same cheap materials and replace vs repair attitude that Shodan explained above

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

And the same "folks" that you believe don't understand that you can't "ice skate uphill" when it comes to taking a car that was never originally designed to handle over 170% of the power and torque of its original design is asking for more trouble than what the owner is prepared for.

When these same people try to get their "feet wet" by attempting to "skip the line" (by not researching and using their brain by saving money), no matter what the purpose of that turbo project is, they can easily drown because they didn't take the time they needed to understand all of the correct parts that are needed in the first place, the risks they take in using all of that and still drive the car on a daily driven basis with no back-up transportation, and realize that saving that bit of money now, can save a lot of headache later.

Yes, the formula on Honda cars is cookie-cutter, but the responsibility isn't that way, and that's where I feel that companies like CX-Racing fool younger people with half-a-pocket book into believing that even though they have soda-pop money, they can have champagne-dreams too. And that simply isn't the case. .

As they say.. "Life is Pain...anyone that says otherwise is simply trying to sell you something..".

VooDuuChild

BOOM, Shodan drops the mic. And his word, in this category is as good as gospel to me. But that is my two cents. I would never dog someone for trying to build to a budget, but I also won't cushion their fall when it blows up because of inferior knock off parts. If you're not ready to spend real time reading and learning, then purchasing quality parts, you're not ready for the forced induction world....you're ready for rice busters. Please don't take this as an attack; just what I've learned from buying two or three times before realizing I had already spent more than doing it right once.

Txdragon

I made a statement similar to this in one thread that you, sir, had a rebuttal for. Unfortunately it was cleaned up from the thread it was posted in..


If you think about your opening statement in this post, you'll realize that in order to build a stable reliable engine, "budget-friendly" is not entirely possible. In order for anyone to save money, corners must be cut; used parts, no-name brand items, etc.



Refer to my statement above

As they say.. "Life is Pain...anyone that says otherwise is simply trying to sell you something..".[/QUOTE]

Why would anybody push used performance parts? You gonna go buy a used HKS, blitz, greddy, whatever for 300 bucks with xxx miles on it that you have no backstory on (other than what you are told), that may need a rebuild and balance, (leading up to the 1000 dollar range alone), instead of buying a brand new "knock off" precision or turbonetics unit for a fraction of that cost? Both of which will require the same attention to the block and/or head internals to prep the engine for boost anyways.. That's a gamble that budget-minded people like myself do not wish to take. The REAL downside to this is people tend to sell off broken **** because of the name. Then the poor fella gets stuck with a heaping pile of name-brand **** and set back a big step on his build.

I admire your knowledge and technical expertise, but would have to disagree on your "politics".

Txdragon

As to the OP, there are similar arguments within the vape (e-cigarette) communities involving authentic equipment and clone equipment. Authentic and clone equipment are virtually identical in appearance, and arguably identical in performance. Price differences are steep. I have an authentic item that cost me near 200 bucks and loved it enough to purchase another. I found a clone for 1/10th the price. Performs the same, only difference between them is serial number and item weight. The clone is actually heavier lol.

Anywho.. This is virtually the SAME argument. Authentic vs clone.

LightningTeg

Well its clear you lack the "Experience". You're gonna tell me you built whatever car with entirely all new parts from the dealership and aftermarket and not second hand? come on man

There is a genuine market of good quality used parts, that up until the past few years, was more or less a friendly environment in the honda community. I started that way, and up until the past year or so, has been my entire build lol. second hand used QUALITY parts will go way farther then no name ebay sellers.




To your statement about greddy blitz, funny actually. The Tial F38 I had on my car has worked flawlessly for the past 9 years between the setups the previous owner and I had. I have a Greddy Type RS BOV that I got second hand from a neon I have no history on, has been on the car since 2009 without a hiccup as well.

2kdrift

apples to oranges there. I vape So i know just what your talking about. I only use clones

As far as turbochargers / kits completely different story I would never run a china turbo. All my friends that have them start leaking/self destruct within 6 months not to mention they dont have the same performance anyway

Txdragon

You reading something that I didn't write? Never said I did not and have not used pre-owned parts. I stated that pushing used name-brand parts from unknown sources is just as risky. I know this because, yup, i've done it. Been lucky AND burnt.. It was more costly than buying a new no-name item.
When I did mechanic side jobs and people fussed about my charges per book hour labor, I had a saying that went along with it, "if you think it's expensive to hire a professional, just wait til you hire an amateur."

This statement is SOOOOOO subjective it isn't even funny. This is based on personal experiences only. You can not say that you can continue to find affordable used parts in great condition, that still work perfectly every time.



You're gonna base your "good finds" argument on items as simple as a BOV and WG? Pleeeaaaase.. If these are your items for argument, please go back to the kiddie table and let the adults speak..

Xanthias

iTrader: (1)

Yea I feel bad for the quality businesses that sell quality parts. HKS moving away from America was a perfect example. There were so many chinese knock off blow off valves that it actually put the American division out of business... This is extremely sad. Problem is that this will always happen in a free market where 80 percent of people that want to turbo their honda only like the end picture, but the not the process which can be costly and most people are simply not dedicated enough to get it done. I hate the fact that companies buy garret turbos and then copy them exactly and build them with inferior parts which breeds CX racing turbos...

Txdragon

You haven't been vaping long then. This is quite literally the same argument.

"Ebay turbo kits are prone to blah blah and cheaply constructed, and blow up after xx months..."

"clone vape gear is prone to blah blah and cheaply constructed, and blow up after xx time.."

I've heard it all before. I'm not partial to either clone or authentic. I know what I want and I buy it.

LightningTeg

Still safer then pushing chinese ****.

I cant speak for your experience but I've been doing this for little while. And have met countless people to exchange things. You have really poor judgment of internet for sale ads and asking the wrong questions when you buy parts I guess.


lol

I knew you were going to say this, I almost included a sub note lol
Those are 2 examples of many. Turbos, Injectors, cams, cranks, blocks, heads, you name it. Only recently when I could afford to buy new stuff have I.

Txdragon

Again, subjective to personal experience..

Well, not much I can answer for here except when I ask somebody like, "Do you have documentation to back up recent rebuild? (shows receipts) "Oh, ok".

(5 days later item dies in a fire and unable to contact person that sold me dying item).

If I were to make a guess at my used item stats, i'd say I am probably at about a 30% positive experience ratio. 30% of the purchases I have made were fantastic and lasted up until I either sold the car the item was on or replaced the item for a better unit. The rest of them required rebuild or major components to work properly, or broke not long after purchase.

Buying used ANYTHING is risky.. Period. Whether it be chinese knockoff, name brand, it's risky because you ultimately have to rely on the word of the seller.

Geis

Yeah man, I remember the time I bought that used manifold, charge piping, ic, turbo with 'no shaft play', dp/dt, and after the compressor went shooting out the side of my car everything else I got ripped off and just got sucked into the engine (cuz they were actually made of paper) and caused my used pistons and rods to shoot out the hood...nearly killed me man.

Oh yeah, that never happens. Nobody cares about your anecdotes about getting screwed over on the used market. Subjective? Yeah man, and the fact that most people have good experiences in the used market means *nothing* because it's all subjective. But yeah man, all those peeps with success on brand new chinese equipment, well, THEIR subjective experience is what really matters.

2kdrift

Ohh I havent? please tell me some more things about myself since you know me better then i Know myself LMAO

this has to be the most retarded comparisons I have ever read.....vape gear vs turbo LMAO I was being nice when I said apples to oranges at least those are both fruit

ecig and turbos are nothing alike. so is your ecig use a journal or ball bearing?...oil cooled only or is it also water cooled?...how much RPM does your ECIG spin??

2kdrift

Well at least when you buy chinese turbos you KNOW you are buying crap no suprises

Txdragon

Clearly another case of failed comprehension skills.. The items in question are not the same and I am not comparing them. I am comparing the debate. Knockoffs vs authentic. Chinese turbos vs brand name.. You either have a severe case of literal disease or you're truly, ummm, special.. If you can't look at the basis of the discussion and make that comparison, I feel bad for you