B-Evo B20 Build thread
08-21-2014, 02:53 PM
#28
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Re: B-Evo B20 Build thread
Ran my first 12 second pass!
Installed a manual boost controller and slowly increased the boost. Trap speed came up and now I am experiencing boost tapering off at about 6000 rpm after seeing full boost of about 12 psi at 30th pm. Seems to me like the waste gate is blowing open at high rpm. I don't think there is much of a way around it. Might try a carb spring on it or remake my downpipe with a 38 mm standard gate on it and remove the flapper
Installed a manual boost controller and slowly increased the boost. Trap speed came up and now I am experiencing boost tapering off at about 6000 rpm after seeing full boost of about 12 psi at 30th pm. Seems to me like the waste gate is blowing open at high rpm. I don't think there is much of a way around it. Might try a carb spring on it or remake my downpipe with a 38 mm standard gate on it and remove the flapper
08-22-2014, 05:09 PM
#31
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Re: B-Evo B20 Build thread
Hell yeah! Mad props on the properly paired diy twin scroll manifold and the evo turbo. I've been running the same turbo on a very mild built d16 at 15-20 psi, hoping to run 12s with it this year. Do you have a more detailed build thread anywhere?
08-23-2014, 07:55 AM
#32
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Re: B-Evo B20 Build thread
For ***** and giggles I used squirrel performance's turbo calculator tool to plot my compressor map at the 300 Hp level- this is what I came up with.
Inputs:
300Hp, saying Ill need 14-15lbs of boost sounds about right
then at the 400 HP level it starts leaning into the inefficient parts of the map at high rpm. into the 70% range
Last edited by DA-NINE; 08-23-2014 at 08:13 AM.
08-23-2014, 12:19 PM
#33
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Re: B-Evo B20 Build thread
Post up some more pictures dude. Love the build. I hadn't seen that squirrel performance calculator before, I'm about to go check it out right now.
08-23-2014, 04:00 PM
#35
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08-26-2014, 05:52 PM
#37
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Re: B-Evo B20 Build thread
My boost tapers too and I have an external wastegate and the flapper welded shut.
What's your goals for the build? Trying to run 11s?
What's your goals for the build? Trying to run 11s?
08-26-2014, 06:10 PM
#38
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Re: B-Evo B20 Build thread
the stock evo wastegate isn't that great... most of the guys that run high pressure levels upgrade to a turbosmart actuator.
I tend to use BorgWarners MatchBot, it's by far the most detailed and accurate calculator.
I simply transfer the output data (pressure, air flow) over to whatever compressor map I'm looking at
I tend to use BorgWarners MatchBot, it's by far the most detailed and accurate calculator.
I simply transfer the output data (pressure, air flow) over to whatever compressor map I'm looking at
08-26-2014, 06:49 PM
#39
Re: B-Evo B20 Build thread
the stock evo wastegate isn't that great... most of the guys that run high pressure levels upgrade to a turbosmart actuator.
I tend to use BorgWarners MatchBot, it's by far the most detailed and accurate calculator.
I simply transfer the output data (pressure, air flow) over to whatever compressor map I'm looking at
I tend to use BorgWarners MatchBot, it's by far the most detailed and accurate calculator.
I simply transfer the output data (pressure, air flow) over to whatever compressor map I'm looking at
Most Evolution upgrades are either the Forced Performance actuator or Turbosmart actuator (which is a bit more robust and adjustable)
08-27-2014, 06:36 AM
#40
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Re: B-Evo B20 Build thread
Yeah I was thinking ofor an upgraded actuator or. Building an external into my downpipe/02. Im gonna look into it. The car feels soo strong with a 12 psi spike even though it tapers down to 7psi or so up top. I ran a 320hp/400tq srt4 last night. He put almost a car on me fron a 40 roll and I reeled him back in and ended up making up the distance in 3rd gear and putting a car on him in 4th. The torque and spool rpm of the srt4 is impressive. Second run I brake boosted with him and it was even 2nd gear 3rd and 4th I put a car or two on him.
I can only imagine how this package will run once it holds boost throughout the rpm range
I can only imagine how this package will run once it holds boost throughout the rpm range
08-28-2014, 09:14 AM
#41
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Re: B-Evo B20 Build thread
what's the advantage of the turbosmart actuator?
I am not so concerned with the adjustability of the boost pressure. I think my problem is that the surface area of the diaphragm on the factory wastegate is too small to handle the the amount of inlet pressure that my setup produces. Which leads me to believe that I need an actuator with a larger actuator. Not so much an adjustable one.
I was also considering trying to findicate a dual port waste gate actuator so that boost pressure can act on the back side of the diaphragm when in boost and provide a second force acting on the diaphragm instead of just spring alone.
If I am envisioning this right...
The internal actuator has boost pressure acting to open the actuator but only spring pressure to close it while any gate (actuator or external) with a second port (that is being used) has boost pressure and spring force acting on the diaphragm to close the wastegate.
Is that correct?
I am not so concerned with the adjustability of the boost pressure. I think my problem is that the surface area of the diaphragm on the factory wastegate is too small to handle the the amount of inlet pressure that my setup produces. Which leads me to believe that I need an actuator with a larger actuator. Not so much an adjustable one.
I was also considering trying to findicate a dual port waste gate actuator so that boost pressure can act on the back side of the diaphragm when in boost and provide a second force acting on the diaphragm instead of just spring alone.
If I am envisioning this right...
The internal actuator has boost pressure acting to open the actuator but only spring pressure to close it while any gate (actuator or external) with a second port (that is being used) has boost pressure and spring force acting on the diaphragm to close the wastegate.
Is that correct?
08-28-2014, 09:45 AM
#42
Re: B-Evo B20 Build thread
what's the advantage of the turbosmart actuator?
I am not so concerned with the adjustability of the boost pressure. I think my problem is that the surface area of the diaphragm on the factory wastegate is too small to handle the the amount of inlet pressure that my setup produces. Which leads me to believe that I need an actuator with a larger actuator. Not so much an adjustable one.
I was also considering trying to findicate a dual port waste gate actuator so that boost pressure can act on the back side of the diaphragm when in boost and provide a second force acting on the diaphragm instead of just spring alone.
If I am envisioning this right...
The internal actuator has boost pressure acting to open the actuator but only spring pressure to close it while any gate (actuator or external) with a second port (that is being used) has boost pressure and spring force acting on the diaphragm to close the wastegate.
Is that correct?
I am not so concerned with the adjustability of the boost pressure. I think my problem is that the surface area of the diaphragm on the factory wastegate is too small to handle the the amount of inlet pressure that my setup produces. Which leads me to believe that I need an actuator with a larger actuator. Not so much an adjustable one.
I was also considering trying to findicate a dual port waste gate actuator so that boost pressure can act on the back side of the diaphragm when in boost and provide a second force acting on the diaphragm instead of just spring alone.
If I am envisioning this right...
The internal actuator has boost pressure acting to open the actuator but only spring pressure to close it while any gate (actuator or external) with a second port (that is being used) has boost pressure and spring force acting on the diaphragm to close the wastegate.
Is that correct?
Changing preload is normally performed by adjusting the changing preload on the flapper arm itself so that the flapper arm is completely forward, and the actuator is slightly "stretched" to compress the spring. The spring in the sealed chamber itself acts just like an external gate as it is the minimum spring pressure that allows the flapper to actually open, but pre-loading the spring helps with keeping boost pressure solid without it tapering off so much by allowing the flapper door to open early...
So, the purpose of the Turbosmart is not just for higher adjustability for boost pressure, but its allows the actuator rod to adjust for finer pre-load adjustment, as well as a great quick-locking cap to change out springs if needed (you can go from 3psi to 26psi with their springs). But honestly, after that, is where items like a good boost controller, and changing in ignition timing and fuel come more into play for better control.
Turbosmart Evoultion internal wastegates
How to preload your actuator
These turbos LIKE BOOST PRESSURE, and trying to use super lowering boost techniques like boost-by-gear, and all that, don't work that great with these turbos because they are FAR out of their efficiency range at lower boost pressures. "Creep" would only exist by not enough timing in the tune, and no adjustments by way of pre-load OR boost controller or combination thereof.
You guys gotta stop worrying about number of "ports" so much.. There are so many other ways to work with these.
08-28-2014, 11:05 AM
#43
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Thread Starter
Re: B-Evo B20 Build thread
almost, but not quite. the boost pressure source would be a vacuum or positive-pressure only source that acts on the sealed chamber itself, just like an external gate, but its the ROD that actually can adjust when the flapper actually opens/closes by way of the spring's preload..
Changing preload is normally performed by adjusting the changing preload on the flapper arm itself so that the flapper arm is completely forward, and the actuator is slightly "stretched" to compress the spring. The spring in the sealed chamber itself acts just like an external gate as it is the minimum spring pressure that allows the flapper to actually open, but pre-loading the spring helps with keeping boost pressure solid without it tapering off so much by allowing the flapper door to open early...
So, the purpose of the Turbosmart is not just for higher adjustability for boost pressure, but its allows the actuator rod to adjust for finer pre-load adjustment, as well as a great quick-locking cap to change out springs if needed (you can go from 3psi to 26psi with their springs). But honestly, after that, is where items like a good boost controller, and changing in ignition timing and fuel come more into play for better control.
Turbosmart Evoultion internal wastegates
Turbosmart Internal Wastegate Actuator (Mitsubishi EVO 9) - What's in the Box? - YouTube
How to preload your actuator
Wastegate Preload Setting - YouTube
These turbos LIKE BOOST PRESSURE, and trying to use super lowering boost techniques like boost-by-gear, and all that, don't work that great with these turbos because they are FAR out of their efficiency range at lower boost pressures. "Creep" would only exist by not enough timing in the tune, and no adjustments by way of pre-load OR boost controller or combination thereof.
You guys gotta stop worrying about number of "ports" so much.. There are so many other ways to work with these.
Changing preload is normally performed by adjusting the changing preload on the flapper arm itself so that the flapper arm is completely forward, and the actuator is slightly "stretched" to compress the spring. The spring in the sealed chamber itself acts just like an external gate as it is the minimum spring pressure that allows the flapper to actually open, but pre-loading the spring helps with keeping boost pressure solid without it tapering off so much by allowing the flapper door to open early...
So, the purpose of the Turbosmart is not just for higher adjustability for boost pressure, but its allows the actuator rod to adjust for finer pre-load adjustment, as well as a great quick-locking cap to change out springs if needed (you can go from 3psi to 26psi with their springs). But honestly, after that, is where items like a good boost controller, and changing in ignition timing and fuel come more into play for better control.
Turbosmart Evoultion internal wastegates
Turbosmart Internal Wastegate Actuator (Mitsubishi EVO 9) - What's in the Box? - YouTube
How to preload your actuator
Wastegate Preload Setting - YouTube
These turbos LIKE BOOST PRESSURE, and trying to use super lowering boost techniques like boost-by-gear, and all that, don't work that great with these turbos because they are FAR out of their efficiency range at lower boost pressures. "Creep" would only exist by not enough timing in the tune, and no adjustments by way of pre-load OR boost controller or combination thereof.
You guys gotta stop worrying about number of "ports" so much.. There are so many other ways to work with these.
Thank you for the insight. I am at the point where I understand the adjustability aspect of the Turbo smart Gate.
My question is this. My Wastegate actuator already has about 1/4 in of preload on it- It is on an adjustable mount just for that reason- But a how can you have a stronger spring/preload (keeping the flap closed) without a increase in boost pressure.
I have a serious boost taper problem as it stands and I dont know if going to another WGA will help. I say this because if the surface area of the diaphram is the same as oem and they see the same pressure they will exert the same amount of force on the wastegate arm.
The reason I suggested a multi port WGA is because it will have the force of the spring AND the boost pressure (when used with a mbc to the other port) on the back of the diaphram working on the piston closing the wastegate allowing it to hold the flap closed at higher inlet pressure.
Im going to turn My boost controller down and add more preload to the current actuator. I just have a feeling it will make a massive boost spike right before opening and still taper.
Forgive my confusion
Edit- now that I think about it, in a purely scientific test could you preload the tensioner until the travel was limited to the point that the flapper angle is enough to hold a constant boost pressure? Seems like the caveman style of doing it but It may work.
What about extending the flapper arm so that the oem actuator can apply more torque to the flap making it capable of holding more pressure
08-28-2014, 12:32 PM
#44
Re: B-Evo B20 Build thread
Comments in Green
If you want this type of control, I'm honestly saying, its time to either A) get the Turbosmart gate with your MBC, B) get used to not using "low boost" or C) get an independent boost controller with a GAIN feature like us old men have done to solve this type of problem....
This whole thing really has been solved in many ways already. The question is really more what you're willing to do to get it without trying to reinvent the wheel; so to speak.
Thank you for the insight. I am at the point where I understand the adjustability aspect of the Turbo smart Gate.
My question is this. My Wastegate actuator already has about 1/4 in of preload on it- It is on an adjustable mount just for that reason- But a how can you have a stronger spring/preload (keeping the flap closed) without a increase in boost pressure.
Again, that's where the boost controller aspect comes into play.. You're now gaining steady boost pressure in the higher rpm range, not really "keeping boost low" that's not the point. Like I said, these turbos don't like to be kept in low boost, that's why the actuators are at minimum 10psi, and why the opening of the flapper is kept small. People on average keep these at about 20-25psi... not 9 or 10psi.
I have a serious boost taper problem as it stands and I dont know if going to another WGA will help. I say this because if the surface area of the diaphram is the same as oem and they see the same pressure they will exert the same amount of force on the wastegate arm.
You answered your own question below here. You're getting boost taper because the actuator is not holding the flapper door closed, because the spring inside the actuator is not holding down.
The reason I suggested a multi port WGA is because it will have the force of the spring AND the boost pressure (when used with a mbc to the other port) on the back of the diaphram working on the piston closing the wastegate allowing it to hold the flap closed at higher inlet pressure.
It won't matter. We do this all the time on Evolutions and other turbocharged applications that use ONE PORT on the Wastegate spring assembly. The MBC will do its job based upon the Ball-spring of the boost pressure found anyway, and ONLY uses one source, not two. you'll just lower the boost reference signal with two ports.
Im going to turn My boost controller down and add more preload to the current actuator. I just have a feeling it will make a massive boost spike right before opening and still taper.
IF you don't know how much preload you're creating, you may creep a little, but you definitely won't "taper". your problem is you keep continuing to lower pressure with this. and you're just going to get your creep up.
Forgive my confusion
Edit- now that I think about it, in a purely scientific test could you preload the tensioner until the travel was limited to the point that the flapper angle is enough to hold a constant boost pressure? Seems like the caveman style of doing it but It may work.
Works all the time.. There was a world outside of Honda tubocharging. A lot of us still use this method, in conjunction with your "caveman"-style boost controller, too.
What about extending the flapper arm so that the oem actuator can apply more torque to the flap making it capable of holding more pressure
no, you can use a "helper" spring, but its not all that helpful with these actuators on Evolution turbos.
My question is this. My Wastegate actuator already has about 1/4 in of preload on it- It is on an adjustable mount just for that reason- But a how can you have a stronger spring/preload (keeping the flap closed) without a increase in boost pressure.
Again, that's where the boost controller aspect comes into play.. You're now gaining steady boost pressure in the higher rpm range, not really "keeping boost low" that's not the point. Like I said, these turbos don't like to be kept in low boost, that's why the actuators are at minimum 10psi, and why the opening of the flapper is kept small. People on average keep these at about 20-25psi... not 9 or 10psi.
I have a serious boost taper problem as it stands and I dont know if going to another WGA will help. I say this because if the surface area of the diaphram is the same as oem and they see the same pressure they will exert the same amount of force on the wastegate arm.
You answered your own question below here. You're getting boost taper because the actuator is not holding the flapper door closed, because the spring inside the actuator is not holding down.
The reason I suggested a multi port WGA is because it will have the force of the spring AND the boost pressure (when used with a mbc to the other port) on the back of the diaphram working on the piston closing the wastegate allowing it to hold the flap closed at higher inlet pressure.
It won't matter. We do this all the time on Evolutions and other turbocharged applications that use ONE PORT on the Wastegate spring assembly. The MBC will do its job based upon the Ball-spring of the boost pressure found anyway, and ONLY uses one source, not two. you'll just lower the boost reference signal with two ports.
Im going to turn My boost controller down and add more preload to the current actuator. I just have a feeling it will make a massive boost spike right before opening and still taper.
IF you don't know how much preload you're creating, you may creep a little, but you definitely won't "taper". your problem is you keep continuing to lower pressure with this. and you're just going to get your creep up.
Forgive my confusion
Edit- now that I think about it, in a purely scientific test could you preload the tensioner until the travel was limited to the point that the flapper angle is enough to hold a constant boost pressure? Seems like the caveman style of doing it but It may work.
Works all the time.. There was a world outside of Honda tubocharging. A lot of us still use this method, in conjunction with your "caveman"-style boost controller, too.
What about extending the flapper arm so that the oem actuator can apply more torque to the flap making it capable of holding more pressure
no, you can use a "helper" spring, but its not all that helpful with these actuators on Evolution turbos.
This whole thing really has been solved in many ways already. The question is really more what you're willing to do to get it without trying to reinvent the wheel; so to speak.
08-28-2014, 08:05 PM
#45
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Thread Starter
Re: B-Evo B20 Build thread
I increased my preload by another quarter inch, possibly more. I wish my tune did not have a 13 psi boost cut. Seems like it's still asking for more preload went from 12psi spike to 8-7lbs up top. To the same spike to 10lbs up top. I need to get back on the dynamic and let this thing eat...
08-29-2014, 09:37 AM
#46
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Re: B-Evo B20 Build thread
Question, the rocket cams you are running are they new or regrinds? Do you have any comparison to them vs stock cams or anything else?
08-29-2014, 02:11 PM
#47
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Re: B-Evo B20 Build thread
Regrinds. No head to head comparison but this head package ran identical 1/4 mile times as my old 11.7:1 ls vtec with ctr cams. Same header, equivalent intake manifold same car same slicks.
