10-20 PSI JRSC setup
11-06-2006, 09:31 AM
#1
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
10-20 PSI JRSC setup
Here's a repeat of something I posted in the JRSC thread, but I thought maybe some of the rest of you might find it interesting too. Let's not turn this into a turbo vs. SC thread, that's been done to death:
Cliff's notes: JRSC that makes 10-20 PSI efficiently
As you may or may not know, Eaton has been working on a re-design of their Roots blower for some time. If you look at compressor maps of their current blowers, they tend to have a sweet spot, efficiency-wise, in the neighborhood of a pressure ratio of 1.4-1.5 (6-7 PSI), and it's rather narrow in terms of CFM. That's great if you only want 6-7 PSI and have a motor that moves an average amount of air for it's size (not a Honda/Acura B-series VTEC motor), but their peak efficiency range is rather narrow and goes quickly to hell when you try to run more pressure or more CFM, or, God help you B-series VTEC owners, both.
The blowers are now out, they are called TVS superchargers, and they are on the Web site:
http://www.eatonperformance.co....html
Here are some pictures of one at SEMA from a few days ago (Much thanks to jDogg for taking some pics and getting information from the tech guys at the Eaton booth):
As you can see, the blower has more lobes/rotor than the old blowers, more helical twist, and more intake/outlet area, but it is still a Roots design, not a Lysholm. These blowers move a lot more air at much higher pressures than the old design.
Eaton will be making bolt-in replacements for previous M-series blowers, starting with the M-112 for the Cobra/Lightning crowd, and eventually getting to our CCW M-62 replacement around Q3/07. Replacing a M-112 on a SVT Cobra with it's new TVS equivalent bolt-in replacement blower nets 250 extra WHP after tuning. That's a 75% increase in power, which is huge. If I get that kind of improvement to my setup, then I'll be making over 500 WHP.
Here's a map of a 5th gen M62 blower, this is more efficient than the 3rd gen M62 blowers that most of us B-series VTEC guys have, but it's close, and may be closer to the map for a ported 3rd gen M62 that some of us are running. I have plotted the requirements of my new motor against it at 10 and 15 PSI, no sense plotting it at 18 PSI because none of the plots would be anywhere near the map. As you can see, the 15 PSI plots are mostly at the edge of the map as it is:
The 10 PSI (red) plot is about what I run (when my motor is together, new pistons should be in next week), and it's not too bad, only dropping below 60% as the motor approaches 6K RPM, and doing some inperpolating, probably hitting 50% by the time it hits 8K RPM. At 15 PSI it never hits 60%, and at 8K, I'd have to guess (because the plot is so far out in the weeds) that it is in the mid-40's. This is what we currently have to deal with, and if you get up around 275+ WHP with this blower, then you done good.
Now for the new TVS R900. I used the R900 because while it is a hair smaller than an M62, it is the closest in size to the M62 and therefore seems most likely to be the replacement for the M62. I'd rather have an R1320, but if they release a production CCW R900 that I can just bolt on and go, then I'll take it. I plotted my motor on it at 10, 15, and 18 PSI. Vive la Différence!
My 10 PSI application is right in the sweet spot of this blower, and 15 PSI is excellent as well. 18 PSI gets a bit out there up around 8K RPM, but it looks like it never goes below 55%. I would buy one of these today if they'd sell it to me. This looks like it could replace the current dual-sequential charger setup that we put on Mark Osgood's car, we won't need a turbo when we can make 15-18 PSI efficiently with just the blower. We'll probably run our cars next year with our current setups:
Me: JRSC on a RLZ-built B18+ Dart-block 95mm stroker setup with 10 PSI from an intercooled Endyn-modified blower running D-mod at Solo1 (road course time trial) events
Mark: sleeved/jDogg-built LS/VTEC running 18 PSI from a dual sequential JRSC/Big-16G setup running Street-Mod Solo2 (autocross) events
Then if they produce a CCW M62 replacement in Q3/07 like the tech at SEMA said they would, we'll probably replace our setups with TVS blowers over the winter.
I'll be talking to people that I know in the SC industry to see when I can get my hands on one of these blowers, as well as contacting Eaton directly to make sure they know that the interest is there for a CCW M62 replacement blower, I'd advise you contact Eaton about it as well if you'd like to see this product. I don't know that it will make a difference, but I don't think that it can hurt.
For any of you that weren't familiar with my JRSC setup:
That's actually on my old, slightly messed-up motor. My new motor is still at RLZ, waiting on my pistons to come from Wiseco. We expect them in the next week or two.
Cliff's notes: JRSC that makes 10-20 PSI efficiently
As you may or may not know, Eaton has been working on a re-design of their Roots blower for some time. If you look at compressor maps of their current blowers, they tend to have a sweet spot, efficiency-wise, in the neighborhood of a pressure ratio of 1.4-1.5 (6-7 PSI), and it's rather narrow in terms of CFM. That's great if you only want 6-7 PSI and have a motor that moves an average amount of air for it's size (not a Honda/Acura B-series VTEC motor), but their peak efficiency range is rather narrow and goes quickly to hell when you try to run more pressure or more CFM, or, God help you B-series VTEC owners, both.
The blowers are now out, they are called TVS superchargers, and they are on the Web site:
http://www.eatonperformance.co....html
Here are some pictures of one at SEMA from a few days ago (Much thanks to jDogg for taking some pics and getting information from the tech guys at the Eaton booth):
As you can see, the blower has more lobes/rotor than the old blowers, more helical twist, and more intake/outlet area, but it is still a Roots design, not a Lysholm. These blowers move a lot more air at much higher pressures than the old design.
Eaton will be making bolt-in replacements for previous M-series blowers, starting with the M-112 for the Cobra/Lightning crowd, and eventually getting to our CCW M-62 replacement around Q3/07. Replacing a M-112 on a SVT Cobra with it's new TVS equivalent bolt-in replacement blower nets 250 extra WHP after tuning. That's a 75% increase in power, which is huge. If I get that kind of improvement to my setup, then I'll be making over 500 WHP.
Here's a map of a 5th gen M62 blower, this is more efficient than the 3rd gen M62 blowers that most of us B-series VTEC guys have, but it's close, and may be closer to the map for a ported 3rd gen M62 that some of us are running. I have plotted the requirements of my new motor against it at 10 and 15 PSI, no sense plotting it at 18 PSI because none of the plots would be anywhere near the map. As you can see, the 15 PSI plots are mostly at the edge of the map as it is:
The 10 PSI (red) plot is about what I run (when my motor is together, new pistons should be in next week), and it's not too bad, only dropping below 60% as the motor approaches 6K RPM, and doing some inperpolating, probably hitting 50% by the time it hits 8K RPM. At 15 PSI it never hits 60%, and at 8K, I'd have to guess (because the plot is so far out in the weeds) that it is in the mid-40's. This is what we currently have to deal with, and if you get up around 275+ WHP with this blower, then you done good.
Now for the new TVS R900. I used the R900 because while it is a hair smaller than an M62, it is the closest in size to the M62 and therefore seems most likely to be the replacement for the M62. I'd rather have an R1320, but if they release a production CCW R900 that I can just bolt on and go, then I'll take it. I plotted my motor on it at 10, 15, and 18 PSI. Vive la Différence!
My 10 PSI application is right in the sweet spot of this blower, and 15 PSI is excellent as well. 18 PSI gets a bit out there up around 8K RPM, but it looks like it never goes below 55%. I would buy one of these today if they'd sell it to me. This looks like it could replace the current dual-sequential charger setup that we put on Mark Osgood's car, we won't need a turbo when we can make 15-18 PSI efficiently with just the blower. We'll probably run our cars next year with our current setups:
Me: JRSC on a RLZ-built B18+ Dart-block 95mm stroker setup with 10 PSI from an intercooled Endyn-modified blower running D-mod at Solo1 (road course time trial) events
Mark: sleeved/jDogg-built LS/VTEC running 18 PSI from a dual sequential JRSC/Big-16G setup running Street-Mod Solo2 (autocross) events
Then if they produce a CCW M62 replacement in Q3/07 like the tech at SEMA said they would, we'll probably replace our setups with TVS blowers over the winter.
I'll be talking to people that I know in the SC industry to see when I can get my hands on one of these blowers, as well as contacting Eaton directly to make sure they know that the interest is there for a CCW M62 replacement blower, I'd advise you contact Eaton about it as well if you'd like to see this product. I don't know that it will make a difference, but I don't think that it can hurt.
For any of you that weren't familiar with my JRSC setup:
That's actually on my old, slightly messed-up motor. My new motor is still at RLZ, waiting on my pistons to come from Wiseco. We expect them in the next week or two.
11-06-2006, 10:07 AM
#2
Honda-Tech Member
Re: 10-20 PSI JRSC setup (rmcdaniels)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rmcdaniels »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Eaton will be making bolt-in replacements for previous M-series blowers, eventually getting to our CCW M-62 replacement around Q3/07.</TD></TR></TABLE>
that's the only part i wanted to hear!!!!!
that's the only part i wanted to hear!!!!!
11-06-2006, 04:40 PM
#5
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Thread Starter
Re: (Attaus)
I've never run the 1/4 with the SC setup, I mostly run road courses and autocrosses. I used to drag race my turbo B16 all the time, usually low 12's at 120+ in a fairly heavy EM1 street car. After I get the motor back in my new gutted hatch I'll have to take it down to Fayetteville Motorsports Park and see what it will do, or next time I'm at the Rockingham Speedway I can take it across the street to the drag strip the night before for test-n-tune, although last time I did that in my N/A car I knocked all the teeth off of my final drive. I'm thinking it won't be as good as a big turbo for drag racing, but it's a really fun setup for daily driving.
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11-07-2006, 03:28 AM
#8
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Re: 10-20 PSI JRSC setup (rmcdaniels)
i'm currently ditching my jrsc for turbo because i want more hp, i've noticed the rotrex sc from jackson racing but theres no love for b series any more. have looked into the rotrex system yet?
11-07-2006, 05:33 AM
#9
Honda-Tech Member
Re: 10-20 PSI JRSC setup (BigGreenAuto)
The rotrex system isn't that great. It is very similar to a vortec. Excellent peak power, but no midrange. Rotrex is working on a 2 stage gearing setup that will be impressive, but it is still in R & D.
Here is an ITR setup:
http://www.honda-klub.dk/modul...id=13
Here is an ITR setup:
http://www.honda-klub.dk/modul...id=13
12-03-2006, 07:12 PM
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Re: 10-20 PSI JRSC setup (rmcdaniels)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rmcdaniels »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
My 10 PSI application is right in the sweet spot of this blower, and 15 PSI is excellent as well. 18 PSI gets a bit out there up around 8K RPM, but it looks like it never goes below 55%. I would buy one of these today if they'd sell it to me. This looks like it could replace the current dual-sequential charger setup that we put on Mark Osgood's car, we won't need a turbo when we can make 15-18 PSI efficiently with just the blower. We'll probably run our cars next year with our current setups:
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I love map plots, especially on something new
just have a couple questions because im not familiar with after TB sc maps,
and I like how they used cubic meter per hour for flow.
frieken Eatoners
,.. I had to dig out old book that had inch layer dust, anyways...
On the 4k rpm plot @ 10psi (RED dot / 1.68 pressure ratio), I get
401 cubic meter/hour for the displacement you indicated (assuming ve factor of 1.0).
I can tell the head flow is better than stock and can find the ve no problem,
but here is where I think I'm off...
I'm using an 115F for intake temp (Garrets usual temp after a ic).
What temp should I use for a roots charger?
Loss in pressure from the charge would be 0 psi, right?
did u also assume a higher elevation than sea level?
again thanks for the plot. that took some work.
Modified by Quick 200k Mile Motor at 11:56 PM 12/3/2006
Modified by Quick 200k Mile Motor at 3:10 AM 12/4/2006
My 10 PSI application is right in the sweet spot of this blower, and 15 PSI is excellent as well. 18 PSI gets a bit out there up around 8K RPM, but it looks like it never goes below 55%. I would buy one of these today if they'd sell it to me. This looks like it could replace the current dual-sequential charger setup that we put on Mark Osgood's car, we won't need a turbo when we can make 15-18 PSI efficiently with just the blower. We'll probably run our cars next year with our current setups:
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I love map plots, especially on something new
just have a couple questions because im not familiar with after TB sc maps,
and I like how they used cubic meter per hour for flow.
frieken Eatoners
,.. I had to dig out old book that had inch layer dust, anyways...On the 4k rpm plot @ 10psi (RED dot / 1.68 pressure ratio), I get
401 cubic meter/hour for the displacement you indicated (assuming ve factor of 1.0).
I can tell the head flow is better than stock and can find the ve no problem,
but here is where I think I'm off...
I'm using an 115F for intake temp (Garrets usual temp after a ic).
What temp should I use for a roots charger?
Loss in pressure from the charge would be 0 psi, right?
did u also assume a higher elevation than sea level?
again thanks for the plot. that took some work.
Modified by Quick 200k Mile Motor at 11:56 PM 12/3/2006
Modified by Quick 200k Mile Motor at 3:10 AM 12/4/2006
12-29-2006, 10:16 AM
#11
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Re: 10-20 PSI JRSC setup (Quick 200k Mile Motor)
Excellent info. Although im set on a turbo for my v6, i really miss my m62. I would love to try the R1320 or R1650.
Anyone know of a good dealer to contact for purchasing/availability? PM if necessary.
Anyone know of a good dealer to contact for purchasing/availability? PM if necessary.
06-25-2008, 06:19 AM
#14
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Re: 10-20 PSI JRSC setup (deadfish13)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by deadfish13 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">any updates on this ?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
AFAIK, the models we would need aren't out yet. However, with Roger's recent project, that might not matter. It might be possible to just buy the rotors for one of the models currently out, and have his friend Charles make a custom case.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
AFAIK, the models we would need aren't out yet. However, with Roger's recent project, that might not matter. It might be possible to just buy the rotors for one of the models currently out, and have his friend Charles make a custom case.
06-26-2008, 03:19 AM
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Re: 10-20 PSI JRSC setup (rochesterricer)
last project i saw by roger ( very very inspiring guy ) was with the m90 located where the AC would be. awesome project !
that what u talking about .
or is there some other blower mod ?
that what u talking about .
or is there some other blower mod ?
06-30-2008, 05:58 AM
#18
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Thread Starter
Re: 10-20 PSI JRSC setup (deadfish13)
Yeah, Eaton hasn't really been forthcoming about getting blowers out for tuners. I think they are focusing on the OEM's, which is where they make the big $. For now I'm just moving forward with the modified M90, although if I can get my hands on a TVS I'll see what I can do with it. Now that I've got a setup built, it should be easy enough to adapt it to another blower.
07-01-2008, 12:39 AM
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Re: 10-20 PSI JRSC setup (rmcdaniels)
hey roger
based on the pics from sample TVS ...do u think the bolt pattern is symmetrical ?
anyone have any fisrt hand experience with the new blower .
can the drive housing be flipped to get the ccw rotation ?
based on the pics from sample TVS ...do u think the bolt pattern is symmetrical ?
anyone have any fisrt hand experience with the new blower .
can the drive housing be flipped to get the ccw rotation ?
07-01-2008, 08:46 AM
#21
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (Blwnb18)
JR told me know.
The is a kit for the cobalt ss now using a 1320 tvs blower. The unit we want. I haven't heard back from them on a counter clock wise version.
The is a kit for the cobalt ss now using a 1320 tvs blower. The unit we want. I haven't heard back from them on a counter clock wise version.
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