Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
03-31-2012, 10:15 AM
#26
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
here is a link to the free tuning suite for mits and suby,
If you look it says honda support soon.
but how if it cant be flashed?
http://www.tactrix.com
If you look it says honda support soon.
but how if it cant be flashed?
http://www.tactrix.com
06-23-2012, 05:17 PM
#27
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
there is probably a lot more interest than what most think. I myself will have no problem boosting the S here in NC because of KPro, but with the civic I have to swap out parts, which is usually a 30-45 minute job, but I would pay to leave my car the way it is and pass every time guaranteed.
06-23-2012, 06:00 PM
#28
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
here is a link to the free tuning suite for mits and suby,
If you look it says honda support soon.
but how if it cant be flashed?
http://www.tactrix.com
If you look it says honda support soon.
but how if it cant be flashed?
http://www.tactrix.com
there is probably a lot more interest than what most think. I myself will have no problem boosting the S here in NC because of KPro, but with the civic I have to swap out parts, which is usually a 30-45 minute job, but I would pay to leave my car the way it is and pass every time guaranteed.
06-26-2012, 04:59 AM
#30
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
It was just for testing, i would not recomment this cause it's a big effort (you need a little extra electronic to match some signals) and you don't benefit or gain anything - maybe just the OBD-II compatibility.
See here two vids showing it prove to work:
http://youtu.be/iyDTIwf94GQ
http://youtu.be/ws5sPWPVCpo
06-26-2012, 11:20 AM
#33
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
It's not a AD convierter nor has the K-Series ECU which run KPro a can bus.
The "magic box" converts mainly the distributor signal from VR to digial and changes its patterns from OBD1 to the K-Series Style. This has to be done in realtime with a accurate and fast RISC processor. It handles the different IACVs and put together the four individual ignition signals back to the old single ignition signal + distributor.
Back to topic. Why not just using a OBD1 ECU to tune and run the engine and add a OBD-II interface to it!? There are allready some OBD-II simulators on the market.
I would make it in a way that it communicates the most important singal like RPM, VSS, ECT, IAT, CELs and simulate the other like O2, readiness codes, etc. This will make the OBD scanner happy and let you pass the tests.
Just as an idea.
The "magic box" converts mainly the distributor signal from VR to digial and changes its patterns from OBD1 to the K-Series Style. This has to be done in realtime with a accurate and fast RISC processor. It handles the different IACVs and put together the four individual ignition signals back to the old single ignition signal + distributor.
Back to topic. Why not just using a OBD1 ECU to tune and run the engine and add a OBD-II interface to it!? There are allready some OBD-II simulators on the market.
I would make it in a way that it communicates the most important singal like RPM, VSS, ECT, IAT, CELs and simulate the other like O2, readiness codes, etc. This will make the OBD scanner happy and let you pass the tests.
Just as an idea.
06-26-2012, 04:01 PM
#34
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
I've been thinking about this for a while now. Running Kpro on a D/B series to pass OBDII emissions testing. I knew it would be possible, just how much time and money you want to put into making a converter. It looks like you made one pretty easily just because you have no K series car, that's pretty good. There may be a market for your little converter there. The converter would be even more simple if you just run coil on plug.
07-02-2012, 07:52 PM
#35
Honda-Tech Member
iTrader: (1)
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
Back to topic. Why not just using a OBD1 ECU to tune and run the engine and add a OBD-II interface to it!? There are allready some OBD-II simulators on the market.
I would make it in a way that it communicates the most important singal like RPM, VSS, ECT, IAT, CELs and simulate the other like O2, readiness codes, etc. This will make the OBD scanner happy and let you pass the tests.
Just as an idea.
I would make it in a way that it communicates the most important singal like RPM, VSS, ECT, IAT, CELs and simulate the other like O2, readiness codes, etc. This will make the OBD scanner happy and let you pass the tests.
Just as an idea.
I also like the idea of being able to run a more modern ecu in my car... if you could unlock some of the features there is no doubt that the new ecu's would have much more capability than the twenty year old processors we're running. Just look at how good Mitsubishi's knock control has gotten in the new evo's for an example.
07-07-2012, 10:33 AM
#36
Honda-Tech Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: POSeRs, NJ, US
Posts: 1,740
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
So it can be done. I figured it could be done but it would cost prohibitive to bring to market especially since there are so many cost effective tuning options available. Nothing to be held to, but what kind of approximate price tag would be put on something like this?
Few more questions if you would. Curiosity more than anything.
Does the technology exist that would allow an OBD2 ecu to be programmed but still allow it retain all of the OBD2 sensors functions? For instance where I live has "emissions" testing that consists of connecting to the OBD2 port to check for any DTCs and to verify the readiness status is complete. If there are no codes I pass. In an ideal world I would like an ECU that I could tune and not have to deal with the issues of swapping out an ECU and hoping I do not "throw" a code on the way to the inspection. In states that have actual sniffer tests, there could be a tune just to pass the emissions part of the test without changing any parts.
I know I am probably a tiny minority here but I would gladly pay a substantial amount of money for a programmable OB2 ecu for my car. For instance I am looking at ~$700 for a OB1 ecu, harness and Neptune RTP to put in my car. $300 just to get an ECU and harness to be able to use the RTP. For instance say there was a OBD2 system that could be installed in by current ECU for $1000 that $1000 would go straight to the tuning/ECU modication company. For only $300 more out of pocket I could guarantee I would not have any code issues when swapping back to the OBD2 ECU and would have to do nothing other than make my yearly drive to my inspection test. Would be something I definitely pay a premium for, likely more of it do everything a current Neptune could do. Hell I even considered an AEM EMS at $1200 if it would do the above, but it does not. Same emissions testing issues for me.
It is nice to dream. isn't it?
Few more questions if you would. Curiosity more than anything.
Does the technology exist that would allow an OBD2 ecu to be programmed but still allow it retain all of the OBD2 sensors functions? For instance where I live has "emissions" testing that consists of connecting to the OBD2 port to check for any DTCs and to verify the readiness status is complete. If there are no codes I pass. In an ideal world I would like an ECU that I could tune and not have to deal with the issues of swapping out an ECU and hoping I do not "throw" a code on the way to the inspection. In states that have actual sniffer tests, there could be a tune just to pass the emissions part of the test without changing any parts.
I know I am probably a tiny minority here but I would gladly pay a substantial amount of money for a programmable OB2 ecu for my car. For instance I am looking at ~$700 for a OB1 ecu, harness and Neptune RTP to put in my car. $300 just to get an ECU and harness to be able to use the RTP. For instance say there was a OBD2 system that could be installed in by current ECU for $1000 that $1000 would go straight to the tuning/ECU modication company. For only $300 more out of pocket I could guarantee I would not have any code issues when swapping back to the OBD2 ECU and would have to do nothing other than make my yearly drive to my inspection test. Would be something I definitely pay a premium for, likely more of it do everything a current Neptune could do. Hell I even considered an AEM EMS at $1200 if it would do the above, but it does not. Same emissions testing issues for me.
It is nice to dream. isn't it?
Running an OBD2 ECU flawlessly, passing emissions and switching to OBD1 in matter of minutes is not a dream. I have been doing it since 2006. So what is your engine combination and what OBD2 sensors are missing?
- i.
Last edited by JerseySiPOS; 07-07-2012 at 10:51 AM.
07-07-2012, 02:26 PM
#37
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: nothing is real unless it is observed
Posts: 5,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
Simply having the ability to use the obd2 port as an option for external logging/troubleshooting and other various features would be awesome as well. I am very interested in this product, if you need any testing or components PM me.
07-07-2012, 04:36 PM
#38
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
Apex'i Power FC Standalone (Not the SAFC ****) uses OBD2A connections but acts like an OBD1 computer, still reads VSS, CST, etc. You just have to pay more money. . No emissions, no CEL lights based on OEM parameters. But honda people here don't understand them, and therefore don't like them.
AEM EMS also has OBD2A connections. Their plug-n-play also can read these same areas as the OEM. But you pay for it.
.. For many here, they aren't willing to do that.As for the companies you stated, they are basically 49 state compliant. Damned California..
07-07-2012, 05:38 PM
#39
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NC
Posts: 702
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
i would happily spend the money for either system if I could still pass the NC state "emissions" test.
07-07-2012, 05:43 PM
#40
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NC
Posts: 702
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
The biggest misconception is that the ecu tunes the engine combination. If you follow this "engine management and tuning" section as a guide to tuning, then you will be making your part selections based on the "majority" in the allmotor forum. This will never be the most cost effective approach compared to the true art of tuning. The engine combination tunes the ecu and anyone that charges you to edit your ecu certainly does not know how to give the best results from a given engine's displacement. That's why "tuners" use a dyno because it answers to the timing adjustments made to the ECU map. Being mislead and revolving your build around an OBD1 conversion is evil, not the 96-01 ECU's.
Running an OBD2 ECU flawlessly, passing emissions and switching to OBD1 in matter of minutes is not a dream. I have been doing it since 2006. So what is your engine combination and what OBD2 sensors are missing?
- i.
Running an OBD2 ECU flawlessly, passing emissions and switching to OBD1 in matter of minutes is not a dream. I have been doing it since 2006. So what is your engine combination and what OBD2 sensors are missing?
- i.
07-07-2012, 06:17 PM
#41
Honda-Tech Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: POSeRs, NJ, US
Posts: 1,740
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
Defies logic? You are skipping a step as 99.99% of enthusiasts do. What do you need to alter from a stock ecu and why can you not run an obd2 ecu without codes?
07-07-2012, 06:30 PM
#42
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NC
Posts: 702
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
WTF are you talking about? Skipping a step? How in my original post am I skipping a step? How am I skipping a step in my post that you quoted?
Do it need to be spelled out for you? Why would I run a stock ECU on an engine that is far from stock?
This is the Engine Management and Tuning forum correct? How many people "tune" their modified engines with a stock OBD2 ecu? I am looking for an ECU that can control all engine parameters while maintaining OBD2 compliance. What is so ****ing hard for you to understand?
This is the Engine Management and Tuning forum correct? How many people "tune" their modified engines with a stock OBD2 ecu? I am looking for an ECU that can control all engine parameters while maintaining OBD2 compliance. What is so ****ing hard for you to understand?
07-07-2012, 06:40 PM
#43
Honda-Tech Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: POSeRs, NJ, US
Posts: 1,740
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
Did you choose your parts that went into your "modified" engine? What is your combo? If you know you need a "modified" ecu, then what changes do you need to make to a stock Honda ecu?
07-07-2012, 06:51 PM
#44
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NC
Posts: 702
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
Yes.
What relevance does this have to do with my original questions and statement?
???????? You and I are either talking about two completely different things or you completely fail at reading comprehension.
What relevance does this have to do with my original questions and statement?
???????? You and I are either talking about two completely different things or you completely fail at reading comprehension.
07-07-2012, 07:32 PM
#45
Honda-Tech Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: POSeRs, NJ, US
Posts: 1,740
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
or number three, you are jumping way ahead of yourself and you do not realize that choosing your own part selections is tuning.
I don't have to worry about codes with an OBD2 ECU, you do. So a programmable OBD2 ECU might be needed in your opinion for your highly modified engine, but it will not eliminate codes to pass emissions. If you think you need a programmable ecu to obtain the best performance from your engine, you have the option of running an OBD1 ecu for 364 days a year. I am positive you would be satisfied if you could run a stock OBD2 ecu with no codes and finally passing inspection. I could help you but you do not want to state your combo. And what vehicle do you have?
I don't have to worry about codes with an OBD2 ECU, you do. So a programmable OBD2 ECU might be needed in your opinion for your highly modified engine, but it will not eliminate codes to pass emissions. If you think you need a programmable ecu to obtain the best performance from your engine, you have the option of running an OBD1 ecu for 364 days a year. I am positive you would be satisfied if you could run a stock OBD2 ecu with no codes and finally passing inspection. I could help you but you do not want to state your combo. And what vehicle do you have?
07-08-2012, 06:42 AM
#46
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NC
Posts: 702
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
ALL OBD2 sensors are in place and working correctly.
I don't have to worry about codes with an OBD2 ECU, you do. So a programmable OBD2 ECU might be needed in your opinion for your highly modified engine, but it will not eliminate codes to pass emissions. If you think you need a programmable ecu to obtain the best performance from your engine, you have the option of running an OBD1 ecu for 364 days a year. I am positive you would be satisfied if you could run a stock OBD2 ecu with no codes and finally passing inspection. I could help you but you do not want to state your combo. And what vehicle do you have?
Tell me how a stock OBD2 ecu can have modified fuel and ignition maps?
B18C1 with
P73AO pistons
ITR intake valves
Portflow springs and retainers
Skunk2 original cams - predecessor to the Tuner cams
Skunk2 cam gears
AEM CAI intake
Skunk2 intake manifold
AEM fuel pressure regulator
PLM TA series header
2.5" test pipe
APEXi WS2 exhuast
07-08-2012, 07:05 AM
#47
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: nothing is real unless it is observed
Posts: 5,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
Tell me how a stock OBD2 ecu can have modified fuel and ignition maps?
B18C1 with
P73AO pistons
ITR intake valves
Portflow springs and retainers
Skunk2 original cams - predecessor to the Tuner cams
Skunk2 cam gears
AEM CAI intake
Skunk2 intake manifold
AEM fuel pressure regulator
PLM TA series header
2.5" test pipe
APEXi WS2 exhuast
B18C1 with
P73AO pistons
ITR intake valves
Portflow springs and retainers
Skunk2 original cams - predecessor to the Tuner cams
Skunk2 cam gears
AEM CAI intake
Skunk2 intake manifold
AEM fuel pressure regulator
PLM TA series header
2.5" test pipe
APEXi WS2 exhuast
I believe Jeresy is trolling.... Either way the discussion is not beneficial.
07-08-2012, 07:59 AM
#48
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NC
Posts: 702
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
Not to mention when money allows I will be adding better cams, head work, injectors, larger throttle body, etc to the equation.
I believe he is trolling also. Either way what he had posted so far in no way has to do with the original post.
07-08-2012, 08:33 AM
#49
Honda-Tech Member
iTrader: (1)
Re: Why is OBD2 so evil for tuning?
So I was thinking about this on a slightly existential level last night... If obd2 compliance is what the inspections are looking for, and you had all of the required sensors operating properly and the ability to check the readiness codes through the port, is the car not then obd2 compliant? Does it really matter that the ecu is older as long as it gathers the required inputs and produces the required outputs?
Basically what I'm getting at is that I don't think it's illegal to make your own system as long as it provides the necessary functionality. I could be wrong here, and I'm sure it wouldn't fly in California, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Basically what I'm getting at is that I don't think it's illegal to make your own system as long as it provides the necessary functionality. I could be wrong here, and I'm sure it wouldn't fly in California, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.