Step-By-Step: CROME Tuning 101 - The Basics
12-06-2016, 12:43 PM
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Step-By-Step: CROME Tuning 101 - The Basics
Re-posting this thread i made here to HT incase one day the other site crash.
I'm doing this thread so I can fall back on it since I'm a beginner tuner. Feel free to use these info, but do it at your own risk. I am not reliable nor the Author of these sites or Anybody giving out these tips if you blow up your motor or injured your self/kill yourself in any way. I am starting out with Crome, so a lot of info on setup will be base mostly on Crome. GL Tuning
Crome Setup
Getting Started with Crome and OBD1 ECU Tuning
http://www.xenocron.com/install/HowT...echArticle.htm
http://static.moates.net/zips/crome/...ME%20v1.06.pdf
Crome Start Up Guide
Crome Start-Up Guide
Crome User Manual
http://site.hamotorsports.com/crome_v1.6.x_manual.pdf
Video's Creating Base Map
Basic Tuning Guide
Theory: BASIC Tuning Guidelines « Moates Support
How To Dyno Tune Your Vehicle - My Pro Street
How To Check Honda Civic Ignition Timing - My Pro Street
PGMFI Bin Files (MAPS)
PGMFI.ORG - Grassroots ECU Development - Library . EcuDefinitionCodes
Map Bins
Downloadable Crome basemap files (.bin)
I Don't Recommend Using These Xenoncron Bins Made By Others But It's Here
Xenocron PGMFI BIN Download Zone
Hondata Intro Tuning/Similar Concept to Crome
https://www.hondata.com/help/flashpr...ottle_fuel.htm
http://hondata.com/techtuning.html
http://hondata.com/techenginetuning.html
http://www.hondata.com/techwidebandtuning.html
PGMFI Redirect 2015
PGMFI.ORG - Grassroots ECU Development - Home . WebHome
PGMFI Library
PGMFI.ORG - Grassroots ECU Development - Library . WebHome
ECU Pinouts/Wideband Hookup
Xenocron DIY Wideband Setup Guide for AEM, Haltech, Hondata S300, Hondata KPRO, Neptune, Innovate Motorsports and PLX Devices
.:FFS TechNet : OBD1 ECU Pin out Schematics :.
ECU Chipping
Installing a Honda P28 ecu chip
MPG Tuning
Tuning for MPG - Honda-Tech
Ignition Tuning
Tune Ignition Maps - Honda-Tech
Ignition Tuning Turbo
https://hondata.com/techboostfuelandignition.html
https://honda-tech.com/forums/engine...-s300-2982649/
"Most often stock engine/map sensor and pump gas cars I street tune begin with that generic 1 degree retard per psi. for example, if an ls engine runs 28 degrees timing at 7000 rpm @ 0" vacuum and I want to run 8 psi. Then id set the timing at 20 degrees. Usually I pull at little extra timing out around 5 to 6k rpm or where the engine makes max tq, as that is the point of peak cyl pressures. Ill ramp it up a bit as piston speed increases toward redline. Street tuning for timing is a pain in the ***, lots of. Spark plug checking and shutting the car off and coasting to the shoulder of the road. Honestly use the roughly 1 degree generic retard, street tune your air fuel ratios then hit the dyno to finalize everything. U will spend less time and money on the dyno this way. As far as exact settings I can't say definitely what to set it at, just give you my experiences. Factors like bore size, compression ratio, volumetric efficiency, rpm gas octane etc all play a factor. Also, I have an egt but I don't really use it for tuning. Its more for when im giving it throttle on the street in high gears to make sure I don't get too hot. At 500hp at the end of a nice 3rd through 4th gear pull im only about 750 degrees celcius, which is only around 100 degrees more than when im cruising on the highway" -blackeg
Spark Plugs Tuning/Detonation
Reading Spark Plugs - A Discussion - Honda-Tech
***The Basics of Reading a Spark Plug*** - Honda-Tech
Reading spark plugs Tuning Spark Plugs
Nitrous Plug Pictures and discussion - Dragstuff
Spark Plug Reading 101 by Mike Canter - Dragstuff
Spark plug reading
How to Read a Spark Plug on 4Strokes.com Technical
http://brianesser.com/technical-info...o-spark-plugs/
Tuning an Engine by the Spark Plug. The Basics of Reading a Spark Plug. ? Auto Repair Instructions
Camgears Tuning
Cam Gear Tuning - Tuning Advance, Retard, and Overlap for Power
Water/Meth Injection
Get Schooled: Water Methanol Injection 101 - Dragzine
Water / Methanol Injection - Import Tuner Magazine
E85 Tuning (Add 40% more fuel to gasoline Injectors rating if using E85)
iTune's E85 tuning notes: AFR - evolutionm.net
E85: Lambda vs Gas AFR vs E85 AFR chart! - Honda-Tech
How To Convert to E85 - Upgrading Fuel Lines - My Pro Street
How To Convert to E85 - Upgrading Fuel Lines - My Pro Street
Injectors Scaling for E85/Tuning Setup
-In Crome go to: Tools/Advaced Tables (T)/Injector Battery Offset (stock)/Click On Top Right (more) & Choose the type and injectors rating for your settings.
>Google if your battery offset/injector scaling option is not in menu & plug in values to Batt (volts)/Injectors (ms)
-In Crome press "f":
>New Injectors Flow Rating: Should be 20-40% less than the injectors your using. Example, 650cc = Input 520cc for new settings at 20% less
>New Fuel Pressure: Keep at 45psi
>Enter engine capacity
-Click Advanced tab:
>Lower Cranking/Tip In values to compensate hard starting
>Example: (Cranking: 0.750) (Tip In: 1.25)
-Advanced Ignition 2-3 degrees on entire map
-(Tips)E85's stoicheometric rate isn't 14.7 its 9.5 but due to the way the gauge reads the display will display the same numbers, So with the gauge
reading the way it does you should shoot for the same numbers as gas just in the tuning parameters you will see a difference in the fuel and ignition table .
>If you run e85 on a stock map/untuned for e85 your motor will run lean and need tune to rich'n up
>If your pump gas target for afr is 13 afr for WOT, your wideband gauge target for e85 should read same 13 afr at WOT.
-Why same? Because use reference from first > bulletin. E85 will need to richen up as it will lean out if on stock map.
>Another example: Running e85 and yours wideband reads 14.7 for stoich, but it's really 9.760. With e85 you still target
same afr as pump gasoline. AFR is AFR
E85 AFR ? - Honda-Tech
Injector Calculator
https://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx
EFI Tuning (Good Info 2 Look At)
EFI Tuning _ How To Articles Stand Alone Help
Honda ECU tech info and engine tuning guides HA Motorsports
pgmfi.org ? View topic - Tuning
Tuning Vtec Low & High Cam
-You want to keep the RPM under 6500 or so on the small lobes, you can damage the LMA assembly revving too high without check engaged.
-Every camshaft is different and that defines the low cam rpm limit to me... say.. stock gsr cam i wont rev past 6k same as itr cam... but the rocket motorsport m24xx low cam makes power to damn near 7000 rpms ...On the dyno i always tune low cam to 6000 rpm if its still making power i will raise the rpm by 500 till i see a power drop off because obviously on a large cam vtec isn't going to be set at 5000 rpms.
Also when tuning you can see where low cam power starts to taper and that is usually where vtec will be set at (at the last few rpm of power increase ( just my idea at-least lol ) so i will set vtec 500 rpm before max power of low cam from there you can see by comparing 2 dyno charts low cam and high cam on the graph to see where vtec crosses and set it at the most efficient place and also when dyno tuning or even street tuning, i tune 1000rpm at a time, so say i set my run 3000 rpm to 6000 rpm, then 3000 to 7000 rpm and on i dont ever just rev to 9000rpm if at a certain rpm the engine is still making power i will increase the rpm till i see the graph start to taper off... obviously street tuning you cant see a graph, but after years of doing it i can feel and by the fuel graph i can tell when the engine is not making power past a certain rpm
-The vtec fuel map is only enabled when vtec is enabled, wherever you set vtec is when vtec fuel and timing map is enabled, same as low cam, both maps dont interpolate between each other. Each map has its own timing table... if you advance low cam it will only advance low cam, same as high cam. If you only add .5 to low cam and .5 to high cam it wont add 1 total... it will only be .5 for each timing map.
-Some Tunes like Dan said. Low cam to 6500. Which is what I do. I tune fuel and timing for low cam first ...then u have a good idea of where to start with the high cam tables.
-Tuning Tips 4 High Compression
*High Compression & Ignition tuning - Honda-Tech
a highcompression, fully-built b20VTEC, shop wants me on E85 but... - Honda-Tech
* With static compression that high you'll tend toward being knock limited unless you have some pretty beefy cams. I like to purposely retard timing so that I can see the torque coming on as I feed it back in. Looks like you have egt, so keep an eye on that while retarding timing. Use something like virtual dyno to get the WOT line close on the street, set part throttle conservative based on what you find. You will get it in the ball park. Hit a steady state/load bearing dyno to get a good final rune and then back to the street to clean up any rough edges.
*Low RPM, high load is the most prone area of detonation. Once you reach MBT, the ignition timing flattens out
*People are always looking for an easy way to tune ignition. I've been doing this a long time, I'm an engineer, I love math and simplifying things, but I can assure you there is no rule of thumb for this. Even identical engines can yield remarkably different ignition needs. Knock detection is an absolute MUST. Ears are good, but if it's your car, I'd recommend installing KnockSense. Start with a high compression basemap, H22, CTR or ITR. reduce 10* ignition all over the map, tune to 11:1 AFR, tune ignition, lean out.
I'd highly recommend dyno tuning for high compression also. Often times you can detect potential knock zones before they happen by overlapping your last 2 pulls. -VegasInvasion
High Compression A/F
Compression Ratio---------Full Throttle AFR-------- % Over Lambda
9:1----------------------------- 13.8--------------------- 6.1
10:1---------------------------- 13.7 ---------------------7.2
11:1 ----------------------------13.3 --------------------10.5
12:1 ----------------------------12.7 --------------------15.7
12.5:1-------------------------- 12.0-------------------- 22.5
13:1---------------------------- 11.5 --------------------27.8
VegasInvasion
Tip: Tune Very High Comp Similar To Turbo Cars
people are always looking for an easy way to tune ignition.
I've been doing this a long time, I'm an engineer, I love math and simplifying things, but I can assure you there is no rule of thumb for this.
Even identical engines can yield remarkably different ignition needs.
Knock detection is an absolute MUST. Ears are good, but if it's your car, I'd recommend installing KnockSense.
Start with a high compression basemap, H22, CTR or ITR. reduce 10* ignition all over the map, tune to 11:1 AFR, tune ignition, lean out.
I'd highly recommend dyno tuning for high compression also. Often times you can detect potential knock zones before they happen by overlapping your last 2 pulls.
Question Ask By Me (Via-Mireless Tuning)
1.) May I ask u a question if u dont mind. What's the leanest afr you'll run on a fully built b20v with 12.8-13 compression on 93 pump. Thanks in advanced.
*13.0 is the highest I would go. I wouldn't run pump 93 on that compression though.
2.) Thanks. Yes I know that's too high for pump 93. But that's what I have to work with since its already pieced together. I was thinking about these steps:
-Tune wot to 12.0 afr & pull 10 degrees timing.
-Make wot pull and check plugs.
-Lean fuel out till 12.5 afr and check plugs again. If they're no sign of detonation start advancing ignition.
The reason I ask is because I read to start a 11.0 afr for that compression. Not sure if that's too rich.
*I would do 12.0 and low timing maybe around 20 deg
3.) Get it to 12afr and then look for mbt?
*Yes exactly just to play it safe because I run 13:5:1 comp on mine and I run e85 pump and my mbt is is around 22deg
4.)How much degree u suggest to pull for Part Throttle & safe afr for PT?
*Part throttle around 13.0 afr and timing in the upper 20s maybe low 30s
Low Compression vs High Compression Turbo
evans tuning forums :: View topic - High Compression vs. Low Compression
Low Compression Pistons –
For lower compression, advance ignition 1° for every 1 CR below stock, only in
ranges below atmosphere. Keep stock ignition between full throttle and 2psi, and refer to
section 20 for boost table adjustments. -Crome Manual
Rule Of Thumb 4 Newbies (USE AT YOUR OWN RISK)
"If you are boosted, my general rule of thumb is to retard your motor atleast 1 degree for every lb of boost for below 8.5:1 cp ratio and 1.5 degrees for anything higher. If you are NA and high compression, pull 2-4 degrees from the entire map outside of your first 2 columns. It's a lot easier to start off entirely conservative and add timing back than it is to detonate and destroy a motor from the get go."
As You Star Tuning/Driving Around You Will Understand These Areas
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B20v 257whp 162.5 tq NA 13.5 compression build
Simple B20vtec build - 257hp 162tq - Honda-Tech
B20v E85 240whp NA
DD/Drag B20V build - Page 23 - Honda-Tech
Info was obtain by hjdanzi of preludepower.com (page 4).
Beginners journey: Intro to Tuning - INDEXED!!! - Honda Prelude Forum : Honda Prelude Forums
1)-------------------
2) Choose a car to "test tune"... lets say yours.
3) Calibrate your wideband
4) Remove the old ecu. If you have a tuner harness, hook it now. Connect the chipped ecu, remove the chip, plug in the emulator and the hulog in the cn2 port to datalog.
5) Of course, i assume at this point the wiideband is connected.
6) DONT TURN ON THE CAR YET
7) Open Crome pro.
Go to the basemap you made or have for your car.
9) Disable Checksum routine in (plugins of crome) and also enable quick datalogging + rtp. If you dont do this steps, everything you do will fail. Guaranteed.
10) If you are going to use rev limit, shift light and all that.. Enable them now in Extra Features. If you are using and old crome version, its the time to use the p30 option byte hack. You dont need to enable it now, but if you do it, and the rom works.. then you know its working. This features are good to test if RTP is working fine.. for example, set the shift light at 3k... rev the car... if it works.. change it to 4k if it works, then rtp is working.
10.2) Go to options and disable o2 sensor.
11) Now, click on the little chip you see in the top right part of the screen.
12) Click on SEND... after it finishes, click VERIFY.. (you do this to send the map to the emulator plugged in the ecu, and then verify to see if the emulator has the exact same file as you are seeing in crome).
13) After its done, click in Real time Programming, so its enabled.
14) Now, turn the key to 12v mode (one after accesory) but dont turn on the car.
15) Verify that you dont have any cell lights. If you do have one... Jumper the service connecter and see why its the light on. If you are tuning a non vtec car, and you pull the code and its something vtec related. Then go to options in crome and disable vtec and all other functions. Now do again steps 9, 12.
16) If you dont have any cell lights now... then you are fine to start the car.. HOLD ON!!!
17) Save the basemap. Do again step 9 just for safety. Check that RTP is enabled. Be sure you have the Wideband connected and TURN ON THE CAR.
1 Let it warm.. remember we are learning, so if its not ultra-necesary, we are not tuning the cold start.. at least now, that we are learning. So let it warm... check the wideband.
19) Now, go to LIVE TUNING in crome (little drawing in the top right side of the screen), and a bar menu will open in the bottom of the screen, click in live tuning. A rtp display screen will show in the right side of the screen.
20) Notice in that part of the screen that the Wideband readings will be displayed. Make sure, they match at least 95% of what you see in your wideband display. If its now showing similar values, go to settings in crome without stopping anything, and go to wideband settings. Play with the OFFSET values to match. For example, if my WB is reading 14.7 and crome is reading 15. Then i put -0.030 in offset... now they should match (not perfect but match)... If my WB is reading 14.7 and crome is reading 14.5 then i put 0.02 in offset. Got it?
20-ADVICE) I never look at the WB values in crome... i just check my wideband display.
21) Now the car should be warmed up. Before you start tuning please be sure the Real time programming is enabled. Now... You will notice that a magenta square is running near the top left corner of the map... You are idling there... sometimes its still at one cell, and sometimes it moves a little. Tune that area... ITs easy... If the wideband is showing 14.2 and you want 14.7 in that cell (For example), select the cell and press CONTROL+DOWN and it will remove fuel... check your WIDEBAND.. do that again, until you see the value you want... or something near that. Now your idle should be set.
22) Well... now its testing and experience with tuning... Rev the car at 3k and see where the magenta stands.. try to keep it there and tune it... You can do this without moving the car but you will only do it at "X" inches of vaccumm... after you tune all that.. then you should start moving.. tell the driver to drive as he usually does, (cause you are tuning for him) but tell him that you will give him directives. For example.. tell him to drive at 3k with 50% of throttle.. tell him to keep it there... wait till the magenta cursor stands in one cell.. tune it... well.. i guess you get the idea.
23) After you tuned all the map, its time for WOT.. just tell him to step in the gas pedal and see all the cells the magenta cursor travells.. Usually they will be in the columns 9/b10 in a n/a from "x" revs till redline. Check your wideband all the time... And tune that part.. do it again, until you get the values you want. Dont touch ignition yet.
24) Tuning idle and partial throttle is VITAL for learning and becoming a tuner.. but remember that if you the car will be using the o2 sensor after you finish, then that part of tuning will not be read. But try to do it, so you learn. As Blake told me... tuning WOT is easy, tuning part throttle is difficult.. so i do that every time... and everytime i do it i do it better. In fact the last car i tuned is running open loop all the time.
25) Dont forget to save the files... always do it like this... hjdanzi1idletuned, hjdanzi2partthrottle.... you get the idea... different names with the steps... I dont recommend doing a lot of things at one time, cause then if something doesnt work, you will not know what went wrong.. so i change one thing at a time... for example 5 cells at a time.. or 1, or 20... but I DONT TUNE 5 cells, and then play with the ignition... did you get it? fine.
26) After you tune all the map... drive around in different throttles checking the wideband.. see if they match what your goals were... They wont be 100% perfect. But the average should be.. for example if i want in 10 cells 14.7 and the values are within 14.5, 14.6 and 14.7 i should call it a day.
27) Now i suppose you want to go to the dyno. First do a pull, check the wideband... for safety. Dont panic if the curve is lower than stock, remember you tuned from scratch. main goal is safety then you look for power. So now,.. you will look for power...
2 Check the curve... now if you are tuning WOT in the inercial dyno.. you should only check the wot columns.. if you are on a load type dyno then look at the cells dynoed. As i only tuned in inercial cause the load type doesnt exist in my country, i will only talk about that. If your wideband values are good in WOT... then its time for ignition.
29) You will be looking for MBT, maximum brake torque (google it, usefull info), basically, you keep adding timing (Advance) to the part of the map you are measuring in the dyno, lets say WOT until you find that MBT.. thats the spot where maximum torque and hp are reached and also the point were if you add more ignition (advance) the power will decrease or stay in the same spot. If you keep advancing timing, then you will have pinging and detonation (not good). So once you reach that point.. that MBT.. remove 2° degrees more or less, just for safety. When you are doing this, keep an eye at the wideband cause the air/fuel will change... If it changes, but its still in a safety margin.. leave it there. Just remember that if the car gets in colder weather, the mixture will get leaner... so leave a safety margin when you tune.
30) After you finish all you are doing, save the file. Shut down the car. Just for safety to the remove checksume rutine and quick data and rtp plugin. DONT FORGET TO ENABLE THE o2 SENSOR UNDER OPTION, IF THIS CAR WILL BE USING IT. Now... burn the chip. Install it.. remove your tools..
31) Put your key in the 12v mode, again.. check not to have any lights... now turn on the car (with the chip in the socket)... do a pull and see if the curve remains 95% the same (the car will be alittle colder this time, so dont panic). And basically thats it.
Regarding vtec.... If you are tuning a vtec car (The 2 first cars i tuned where vtec)...Disable vtec, tune all the low cam map, once you ahve it right... enable vtec at low rpms, lets say 3.5k (not below that rpms, cause of the oil pressure needed to activate it), and tune all the high cam map). Then do one pull... with the vtec off, and another one with vtec at 3.5rpms.. check the 2 curves.. see were the lines meet. That the right spot to set vtec... for example 5.300rpms.
If you notice the car has a "lag" or bogs when vtec kicks in.. add a little of fuel in the cells before and after vtec, and check again.
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH A VERY IMPORTANT TIP, that will save you a lot of headackes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When you LET OFF THE GAS PEDAL, you will notice that the WIDEBAND reads EXTRAAAAA LEAN, like 20.9 or more... DONT PANIC, thats logic, cause there is no fuel....
Well, im tired.. just ask questions if you have more doubts, and i will answer them the best as i can.
good luck.
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Questions/Answers
Originally Posted by Beckerton View Post
I had the opportunity to chat with hjdanzi and this is what he shed some light on...
1) The numbers in the cells on the fuel map are not directly related to any "REAL" fuel value. If a cell contains the number 25 it does not represent 25 of anything. 25 is a number that is simply used to represent some quantity of fuel. If you are tuning and a cell containing the number 25 is rich (according to wideband) you then lean that cell out by inputting a lower number, if it is lean, you add fuel by inputting a number larger than 25.
Exactly.. those numbers dont mean anything.. the higher the value the more fuel... the lower the value.. less fuel... So If i have a 10 number and i see my wideband and its lean, then i have to increase that 10 value. If it shows rich, then i have to lean it out.
2) Street tune and then dyno tune
3) Only street tune fuel values, leave ignition tuning until you can access a dyno.
RIGHT
This is because you are looking to determine Maximum Brake Torque. YES, IN THE DYNO Once this is found you can begin to advance timing... NO!!!! YOU ADVANCE TIMING UNTIL YOU FIND MBT.. IN THAT SPOR.. power is no longer gained, then pull timing 2 degrees to be safe.
You dont touch timing in the street, unless you have a detonation can and a very trained ear. So.. once in the dyno you search for MBT. Thats the spot where the most powwer is reached by advancing timing.. and once you spot it.. you should stop and back it up a little. You will spot MBT cause you will no longer make any power and it may drop too.
4) The 2D graphs in Crome offer a great visual interpretation of the data located in the tables.
YES
5) Ignition curves in the above mentioned graphs may touch, but never cross.
Right.. its not a good idea that curves cross (in the 2 dimension graphs)..
6) The numbers in the cells are fairly useless on an individual basis, but when looking at all of the numbers as a "whole" you get a better picture of what is going on.
Yes.. for example when a basemap is a mess.. like a basemap that has the same cell's colour in all the cams.. like.. its always at wot or always idling.
hjdanzi did a great job explaining some things to me on a level I could understand. I really appreciate him taking the time to go over some things with me. If any of this information is wrong it's because I misinterpreted what he was saying, but overall these things seem to make logical sense.
Thank you HJDANZI!
Originally Posted by Beckerton View Post
Dude, I read your engine rebuild thread. That definitely sucks. I tried looking into Argentinian import laws but couldn't find much. I was going to try find some sort of loophole. You guys have really weird import/export laws. I saw somewhere you aren't allowed to export new computers or colour TV's. So weird! Anyhow, keep us posted with your progress on the D16Z6 and your experience with the Hondata s300. Good luck.
- Chris
Thanks a lot for all your effort man, i really appreciate it!!! believe me!
*Update* (Just a question I have and I don't see any sense posting a new reply)
I have been doing a lot of thinking about tuning. It has been explained to me that tuning ignition on the street can be a bad thing to do and is better left to a dyno. I don't have access to a dyno in my area (Northern Ontario, closest dyno I can find is approximately 7 hours away).
I understand that there are a couple very good reasons to have a car dyno tuned.
1) You are tuning in a controlled environment that minimizes variables (Wind speed, direction, terrain, weather conditions etc...
2) You can measure the results of your tuning actions (Are changes making positive gains or are they detrimental)
3) Results are more easily replicated on a dyno.
Now, the conclusion that I have come to is that when tuning, the most crucial component is to measure the results of your tuning, especially when considering things mentioned in previous posts in this thread.
Tuning the fuel maps should prove fairly easy, whether you tune them on the street or the dyno. I'm going to say they are more easily tuned on a dyno, but it is not impossible to be done in the street.
No is not... its not impossible, i guess that experience makes you wise... for example Blake (98vtec) can tune all the map on the street... well.. in my case, i dont feel ready to tune ignition on the street, even with a detonation can and many other things. This was discussed a few posts above, but i still fear to touch ignition on the street. I guess, the easiest way is to do street & dyno tune, but yeah, street tuning alone is better that not tuning at all.
I don't feel that a dyno is necessary for this step.
Tuning ignition is definitely easier on a dyno in the respect that you do not have road noise (Wind noise, tires on pavement, ability to hold steady rpm longer etc etc)
In the dyno you dont hear a damn thing.. i mean its so loud.!!! you have to use those ear protectors.. ignition in the dyno is easier cause you can see the charts to spot MBT and stop right there.. BEFORE PINGING.
Also, as explained to me, you want to tune to find MBT or maximum brake torque. Now in order to tune for maximum brake torque you need to know when you are no longer making power while tuning. A dyno is the best tool to determine this because it graphs that information out in a neat and organized manner.
YES
This is where my recent thoughts come into play. Is a dyno really necessary in determining MBT?
For a guy like me.. yeah... maybe for Blake NO!.. but i guess Blake will also need a dyno to tune ignition if he is tuning some fraky 500whp beast... so its necesary at some point for any guy.
I have seen products advertised that claim they are capable of calculating 0-60,1/8 mile, and 1/4 mile times. These same devices are said to calculate HP and TQ ratings within 1%. So would it not be possible to tune for MBT using one of these?
I know a guy that use them... i dont remember the name of the device.. i think its called g-force or something.. but i dont really think they work... I mean... that would be something similar to the butt dyno, that is when you feel any difference in your body while making changes and driving.
I understand that these devices probably won't give me numbers that will match with actual dyno readouts. That is fine with me, because at this point I don't care what I'm making for numbers, I care about making gains. The accuracy of these items holds no bearing on their usefulness to tune, however, they must be fairly consistent to be used as a tool to achieve MBT.
It doesn't matter how accurate the device is in measuring ACTUAL HP and TQ, but it would need to be consistent run after run.
I think you are trying to convince yourself that a dyno is not necesary cause you dont have one available... My opinion is that as long as you arent tuning some BESTIAL HP CAR... you will be fine in the street. So dont worry man, i totaly understand you. there are many people who tunes all the car JUST IN THE STREET using just a detonation can and an EGT gauge and their trained EAR.
As long as the device is capable of showing gains or losses in correlation to tuning changes then I think that they could be used to achieve a better street tune than without, but not as good of a tune as a dyno. Am I off my rocker for thinking that by using one of these, in conjunction with a wideband and det can, an individual could tune their own vehicle to a point where it falls between street and dyno tune?
I guess so, lol ( we are similar, you and me.., lol.. )
Any input, reasons why it would or wouldn't and any corrections are welcomed. hjdanzi, sorry for posting this in your thread but this is probably the best tuning thread on PP and it seems to have captured the attention of reputable tuners. I'd like to hear your opinion as well!
I'm doing this thread so I can fall back on it since I'm a beginner tuner. Feel free to use these info, but do it at your own risk. I am not reliable nor the Author of these sites or Anybody giving out these tips if you blow up your motor or injured your self/kill yourself in any way. I am starting out with Crome, so a lot of info on setup will be base mostly on Crome. GL Tuning
Crome Setup
Getting Started with Crome and OBD1 ECU Tuning
http://www.xenocron.com/install/HowT...echArticle.htm
http://static.moates.net/zips/crome/...ME%20v1.06.pdf
Crome Start Up Guide
Crome Start-Up Guide
Crome User Manual
http://site.hamotorsports.com/crome_v1.6.x_manual.pdf
Video's Creating Base Map
Basic Tuning Guide
Theory: BASIC Tuning Guidelines « Moates Support
How To Dyno Tune Your Vehicle - My Pro Street
How To Check Honda Civic Ignition Timing - My Pro Street
PGMFI Bin Files (MAPS)
PGMFI.ORG - Grassroots ECU Development - Library . EcuDefinitionCodes
Map Bins
Downloadable Crome basemap files (.bin)
I Don't Recommend Using These Xenoncron Bins Made By Others But It's Here
Xenocron PGMFI BIN Download Zone
Hondata Intro Tuning/Similar Concept to Crome
https://www.hondata.com/help/flashpr...ottle_fuel.htm
http://hondata.com/techtuning.html
http://hondata.com/techenginetuning.html
http://www.hondata.com/techwidebandtuning.html
PGMFI Redirect 2015
PGMFI.ORG - Grassroots ECU Development - Home . WebHome
PGMFI Library
PGMFI.ORG - Grassroots ECU Development - Library . WebHome
ECU Pinouts/Wideband Hookup
Xenocron DIY Wideband Setup Guide for AEM, Haltech, Hondata S300, Hondata KPRO, Neptune, Innovate Motorsports and PLX Devices
.:FFS TechNet : OBD1 ECU Pin out Schematics :.
ECU Chipping
Installing a Honda P28 ecu chip
MPG Tuning
Tuning for MPG - Honda-Tech
Ignition Tuning
Tune Ignition Maps - Honda-Tech
Ignition Tuning Turbo
https://hondata.com/techboostfuelandignition.html
https://honda-tech.com/forums/engine...-s300-2982649/
"Most often stock engine/map sensor and pump gas cars I street tune begin with that generic 1 degree retard per psi. for example, if an ls engine runs 28 degrees timing at 7000 rpm @ 0" vacuum and I want to run 8 psi. Then id set the timing at 20 degrees. Usually I pull at little extra timing out around 5 to 6k rpm or where the engine makes max tq, as that is the point of peak cyl pressures. Ill ramp it up a bit as piston speed increases toward redline. Street tuning for timing is a pain in the ***, lots of. Spark plug checking and shutting the car off and coasting to the shoulder of the road. Honestly use the roughly 1 degree generic retard, street tune your air fuel ratios then hit the dyno to finalize everything. U will spend less time and money on the dyno this way. As far as exact settings I can't say definitely what to set it at, just give you my experiences. Factors like bore size, compression ratio, volumetric efficiency, rpm gas octane etc all play a factor. Also, I have an egt but I don't really use it for tuning. Its more for when im giving it throttle on the street in high gears to make sure I don't get too hot. At 500hp at the end of a nice 3rd through 4th gear pull im only about 750 degrees celcius, which is only around 100 degrees more than when im cruising on the highway" -blackeg
Spark Plugs Tuning/Detonation
Reading Spark Plugs - A Discussion - Honda-Tech
***The Basics of Reading a Spark Plug*** - Honda-Tech
Reading spark plugs Tuning Spark Plugs
Nitrous Plug Pictures and discussion - Dragstuff
Spark Plug Reading 101 by Mike Canter - Dragstuff
Spark plug reading
How to Read a Spark Plug on 4Strokes.com Technical
http://brianesser.com/technical-info...o-spark-plugs/
Tuning an Engine by the Spark Plug. The Basics of Reading a Spark Plug. ? Auto Repair Instructions
Camgears Tuning
Cam Gear Tuning - Tuning Advance, Retard, and Overlap for Power
Water/Meth Injection
Get Schooled: Water Methanol Injection 101 - Dragzine
Water / Methanol Injection - Import Tuner Magazine
E85 Tuning (Add 40% more fuel to gasoline Injectors rating if using E85)
iTune's E85 tuning notes: AFR - evolutionm.net
E85: Lambda vs Gas AFR vs E85 AFR chart! - Honda-Tech
How To Convert to E85 - Upgrading Fuel Lines - My Pro Street
How To Convert to E85 - Upgrading Fuel Lines - My Pro Street
Injectors Scaling for E85/Tuning Setup
-In Crome go to: Tools/Advaced Tables (T)/Injector Battery Offset (stock)/Click On Top Right (more) & Choose the type and injectors rating for your settings.
>Google if your battery offset/injector scaling option is not in menu & plug in values to Batt (volts)/Injectors (ms)
-In Crome press "f":
>New Injectors Flow Rating: Should be 20-40% less than the injectors your using. Example, 650cc = Input 520cc for new settings at 20% less
>New Fuel Pressure: Keep at 45psi
>Enter engine capacity
-Click Advanced tab:
>Lower Cranking/Tip In values to compensate hard starting
>Example: (Cranking: 0.750) (Tip In: 1.25)
-Advanced Ignition 2-3 degrees on entire map
-(Tips)E85's stoicheometric rate isn't 14.7 its 9.5 but due to the way the gauge reads the display will display the same numbers, So with the gauge
reading the way it does you should shoot for the same numbers as gas just in the tuning parameters you will see a difference in the fuel and ignition table .
>If you run e85 on a stock map/untuned for e85 your motor will run lean and need tune to rich'n up
>If your pump gas target for afr is 13 afr for WOT, your wideband gauge target for e85 should read same 13 afr at WOT.
-Why same? Because use reference from first > bulletin. E85 will need to richen up as it will lean out if on stock map.
>Another example: Running e85 and yours wideband reads 14.7 for stoich, but it's really 9.760. With e85 you still target
same afr as pump gasoline. AFR is AFR
E85 AFR ? - Honda-Tech
Injector Calculator
https://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx
EFI Tuning (Good Info 2 Look At)
EFI Tuning _ How To Articles Stand Alone Help
Honda ECU tech info and engine tuning guides HA Motorsports
pgmfi.org ? View topic - Tuning
Tuning Vtec Low & High Cam
-You want to keep the RPM under 6500 or so on the small lobes, you can damage the LMA assembly revving too high without check engaged.
-Every camshaft is different and that defines the low cam rpm limit to me... say.. stock gsr cam i wont rev past 6k same as itr cam... but the rocket motorsport m24xx low cam makes power to damn near 7000 rpms ...On the dyno i always tune low cam to 6000 rpm if its still making power i will raise the rpm by 500 till i see a power drop off because obviously on a large cam vtec isn't going to be set at 5000 rpms.
Also when tuning you can see where low cam power starts to taper and that is usually where vtec will be set at (at the last few rpm of power increase ( just my idea at-least lol ) so i will set vtec 500 rpm before max power of low cam from there you can see by comparing 2 dyno charts low cam and high cam on the graph to see where vtec crosses and set it at the most efficient place and also when dyno tuning or even street tuning, i tune 1000rpm at a time, so say i set my run 3000 rpm to 6000 rpm, then 3000 to 7000 rpm and on i dont ever just rev to 9000rpm if at a certain rpm the engine is still making power i will increase the rpm till i see the graph start to taper off... obviously street tuning you cant see a graph, but after years of doing it i can feel and by the fuel graph i can tell when the engine is not making power past a certain rpm
-The vtec fuel map is only enabled when vtec is enabled, wherever you set vtec is when vtec fuel and timing map is enabled, same as low cam, both maps dont interpolate between each other. Each map has its own timing table... if you advance low cam it will only advance low cam, same as high cam. If you only add .5 to low cam and .5 to high cam it wont add 1 total... it will only be .5 for each timing map.
-Some Tunes like Dan said. Low cam to 6500. Which is what I do. I tune fuel and timing for low cam first ...then u have a good idea of where to start with the high cam tables.
-Tuning Tips 4 High Compression
*High Compression & Ignition tuning - Honda-Tech
a highcompression, fully-built b20VTEC, shop wants me on E85 but... - Honda-Tech
* With static compression that high you'll tend toward being knock limited unless you have some pretty beefy cams. I like to purposely retard timing so that I can see the torque coming on as I feed it back in. Looks like you have egt, so keep an eye on that while retarding timing. Use something like virtual dyno to get the WOT line close on the street, set part throttle conservative based on what you find. You will get it in the ball park. Hit a steady state/load bearing dyno to get a good final rune and then back to the street to clean up any rough edges.
*Low RPM, high load is the most prone area of detonation. Once you reach MBT, the ignition timing flattens out
*People are always looking for an easy way to tune ignition. I've been doing this a long time, I'm an engineer, I love math and simplifying things, but I can assure you there is no rule of thumb for this. Even identical engines can yield remarkably different ignition needs. Knock detection is an absolute MUST. Ears are good, but if it's your car, I'd recommend installing KnockSense. Start with a high compression basemap, H22, CTR or ITR. reduce 10* ignition all over the map, tune to 11:1 AFR, tune ignition, lean out.
I'd highly recommend dyno tuning for high compression also. Often times you can detect potential knock zones before they happen by overlapping your last 2 pulls. -VegasInvasion
High Compression A/F
Compression Ratio---------Full Throttle AFR-------- % Over Lambda
9:1----------------------------- 13.8--------------------- 6.1
10:1---------------------------- 13.7 ---------------------7.2
11:1 ----------------------------13.3 --------------------10.5
12:1 ----------------------------12.7 --------------------15.7
12.5:1-------------------------- 12.0-------------------- 22.5
13:1---------------------------- 11.5 --------------------27.8
VegasInvasion
Tip: Tune Very High Comp Similar To Turbo Cars
people are always looking for an easy way to tune ignition.
I've been doing this a long time, I'm an engineer, I love math and simplifying things, but I can assure you there is no rule of thumb for this.
Even identical engines can yield remarkably different ignition needs.
Knock detection is an absolute MUST. Ears are good, but if it's your car, I'd recommend installing KnockSense.
Start with a high compression basemap, H22, CTR or ITR. reduce 10* ignition all over the map, tune to 11:1 AFR, tune ignition, lean out.
I'd highly recommend dyno tuning for high compression also. Often times you can detect potential knock zones before they happen by overlapping your last 2 pulls.
Question Ask By Me (Via-Mireless Tuning)
1.) May I ask u a question if u dont mind. What's the leanest afr you'll run on a fully built b20v with 12.8-13 compression on 93 pump. Thanks in advanced.
*13.0 is the highest I would go. I wouldn't run pump 93 on that compression though.
2.) Thanks. Yes I know that's too high for pump 93. But that's what I have to work with since its already pieced together. I was thinking about these steps:
-Tune wot to 12.0 afr & pull 10 degrees timing.
-Make wot pull and check plugs.
-Lean fuel out till 12.5 afr and check plugs again. If they're no sign of detonation start advancing ignition.
The reason I ask is because I read to start a 11.0 afr for that compression. Not sure if that's too rich.
*I would do 12.0 and low timing maybe around 20 deg
3.) Get it to 12afr and then look for mbt?
*Yes exactly just to play it safe because I run 13:5:1 comp on mine and I run e85 pump and my mbt is is around 22deg
4.)How much degree u suggest to pull for Part Throttle & safe afr for PT?
*Part throttle around 13.0 afr and timing in the upper 20s maybe low 30s
Low Compression vs High Compression Turbo
evans tuning forums :: View topic - High Compression vs. Low Compression
Low Compression Pistons –
For lower compression, advance ignition 1° for every 1 CR below stock, only in
ranges below atmosphere. Keep stock ignition between full throttle and 2psi, and refer to
section 20 for boost table adjustments. -Crome Manual
Rule Of Thumb 4 Newbies (USE AT YOUR OWN RISK)
"If you are boosted, my general rule of thumb is to retard your motor atleast 1 degree for every lb of boost for below 8.5:1 cp ratio and 1.5 degrees for anything higher. If you are NA and high compression, pull 2-4 degrees from the entire map outside of your first 2 columns. It's a lot easier to start off entirely conservative and add timing back than it is to detonate and destroy a motor from the get go."
As You Star Tuning/Driving Around You Will Understand These Areas
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B20v 257whp 162.5 tq NA 13.5 compression build
Simple B20vtec build - 257hp 162tq - Honda-Tech
B20v E85 240whp NA
DD/Drag B20V build - Page 23 - Honda-Tech
Info was obtain by hjdanzi of preludepower.com (page 4).
Beginners journey: Intro to Tuning - INDEXED!!! - Honda Prelude Forum : Honda Prelude Forums
1)-------------------
2) Choose a car to "test tune"... lets say yours.
3) Calibrate your wideband
4) Remove the old ecu. If you have a tuner harness, hook it now. Connect the chipped ecu, remove the chip, plug in the emulator and the hulog in the cn2 port to datalog.
5) Of course, i assume at this point the wiideband is connected.
6) DONT TURN ON THE CAR YET
7) Open Crome pro.
Go to the basemap you made or have for your car.
9) Disable Checksum routine in (plugins of crome) and also enable quick datalogging + rtp. If you dont do this steps, everything you do will fail. Guaranteed.
10) If you are going to use rev limit, shift light and all that.. Enable them now in Extra Features. If you are using and old crome version, its the time to use the p30 option byte hack. You dont need to enable it now, but if you do it, and the rom works.. then you know its working. This features are good to test if RTP is working fine.. for example, set the shift light at 3k... rev the car... if it works.. change it to 4k if it works, then rtp is working.
10.2) Go to options and disable o2 sensor.
11) Now, click on the little chip you see in the top right part of the screen.
12) Click on SEND... after it finishes, click VERIFY.. (you do this to send the map to the emulator plugged in the ecu, and then verify to see if the emulator has the exact same file as you are seeing in crome).
13) After its done, click in Real time Programming, so its enabled.
14) Now, turn the key to 12v mode (one after accesory) but dont turn on the car.
15) Verify that you dont have any cell lights. If you do have one... Jumper the service connecter and see why its the light on. If you are tuning a non vtec car, and you pull the code and its something vtec related. Then go to options in crome and disable vtec and all other functions. Now do again steps 9, 12.
16) If you dont have any cell lights now... then you are fine to start the car.. HOLD ON!!!
17) Save the basemap. Do again step 9 just for safety. Check that RTP is enabled. Be sure you have the Wideband connected and TURN ON THE CAR.
1 Let it warm.. remember we are learning, so if its not ultra-necesary, we are not tuning the cold start.. at least now, that we are learning. So let it warm... check the wideband.
19) Now, go to LIVE TUNING in crome (little drawing in the top right side of the screen), and a bar menu will open in the bottom of the screen, click in live tuning. A rtp display screen will show in the right side of the screen.
20) Notice in that part of the screen that the Wideband readings will be displayed. Make sure, they match at least 95% of what you see in your wideband display. If its now showing similar values, go to settings in crome without stopping anything, and go to wideband settings. Play with the OFFSET values to match. For example, if my WB is reading 14.7 and crome is reading 15. Then i put -0.030 in offset... now they should match (not perfect but match)... If my WB is reading 14.7 and crome is reading 14.5 then i put 0.02 in offset. Got it?
20-ADVICE) I never look at the WB values in crome... i just check my wideband display.
21) Now the car should be warmed up. Before you start tuning please be sure the Real time programming is enabled. Now... You will notice that a magenta square is running near the top left corner of the map... You are idling there... sometimes its still at one cell, and sometimes it moves a little. Tune that area... ITs easy... If the wideband is showing 14.2 and you want 14.7 in that cell (For example), select the cell and press CONTROL+DOWN and it will remove fuel... check your WIDEBAND.. do that again, until you see the value you want... or something near that. Now your idle should be set.
22) Well... now its testing and experience with tuning... Rev the car at 3k and see where the magenta stands.. try to keep it there and tune it... You can do this without moving the car but you will only do it at "X" inches of vaccumm... after you tune all that.. then you should start moving.. tell the driver to drive as he usually does, (cause you are tuning for him) but tell him that you will give him directives. For example.. tell him to drive at 3k with 50% of throttle.. tell him to keep it there... wait till the magenta cursor stands in one cell.. tune it... well.. i guess you get the idea.
23) After you tuned all the map, its time for WOT.. just tell him to step in the gas pedal and see all the cells the magenta cursor travells.. Usually they will be in the columns 9/b10 in a n/a from "x" revs till redline. Check your wideband all the time... And tune that part.. do it again, until you get the values you want. Dont touch ignition yet.
24) Tuning idle and partial throttle is VITAL for learning and becoming a tuner.. but remember that if you the car will be using the o2 sensor after you finish, then that part of tuning will not be read. But try to do it, so you learn. As Blake told me... tuning WOT is easy, tuning part throttle is difficult.. so i do that every time... and everytime i do it i do it better. In fact the last car i tuned is running open loop all the time.
25) Dont forget to save the files... always do it like this... hjdanzi1idletuned, hjdanzi2partthrottle.... you get the idea... different names with the steps... I dont recommend doing a lot of things at one time, cause then if something doesnt work, you will not know what went wrong.. so i change one thing at a time... for example 5 cells at a time.. or 1, or 20... but I DONT TUNE 5 cells, and then play with the ignition... did you get it? fine.
26) After you tune all the map... drive around in different throttles checking the wideband.. see if they match what your goals were... They wont be 100% perfect. But the average should be.. for example if i want in 10 cells 14.7 and the values are within 14.5, 14.6 and 14.7 i should call it a day.
27) Now i suppose you want to go to the dyno. First do a pull, check the wideband... for safety. Dont panic if the curve is lower than stock, remember you tuned from scratch. main goal is safety then you look for power. So now,.. you will look for power...
2 Check the curve... now if you are tuning WOT in the inercial dyno.. you should only check the wot columns.. if you are on a load type dyno then look at the cells dynoed. As i only tuned in inercial cause the load type doesnt exist in my country, i will only talk about that. If your wideband values are good in WOT... then its time for ignition.
29) You will be looking for MBT, maximum brake torque (google it, usefull info), basically, you keep adding timing (Advance) to the part of the map you are measuring in the dyno, lets say WOT until you find that MBT.. thats the spot where maximum torque and hp are reached and also the point were if you add more ignition (advance) the power will decrease or stay in the same spot. If you keep advancing timing, then you will have pinging and detonation (not good). So once you reach that point.. that MBT.. remove 2° degrees more or less, just for safety. When you are doing this, keep an eye at the wideband cause the air/fuel will change... If it changes, but its still in a safety margin.. leave it there. Just remember that if the car gets in colder weather, the mixture will get leaner... so leave a safety margin when you tune.
30) After you finish all you are doing, save the file. Shut down the car. Just for safety to the remove checksume rutine and quick data and rtp plugin. DONT FORGET TO ENABLE THE o2 SENSOR UNDER OPTION, IF THIS CAR WILL BE USING IT. Now... burn the chip. Install it.. remove your tools..
31) Put your key in the 12v mode, again.. check not to have any lights... now turn on the car (with the chip in the socket)... do a pull and see if the curve remains 95% the same (the car will be alittle colder this time, so dont panic). And basically thats it.
Regarding vtec.... If you are tuning a vtec car (The 2 first cars i tuned where vtec)...Disable vtec, tune all the low cam map, once you ahve it right... enable vtec at low rpms, lets say 3.5k (not below that rpms, cause of the oil pressure needed to activate it), and tune all the high cam map). Then do one pull... with the vtec off, and another one with vtec at 3.5rpms.. check the 2 curves.. see were the lines meet. That the right spot to set vtec... for example 5.300rpms.
If you notice the car has a "lag" or bogs when vtec kicks in.. add a little of fuel in the cells before and after vtec, and check again.
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH A VERY IMPORTANT TIP, that will save you a lot of headackes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When you LET OFF THE GAS PEDAL, you will notice that the WIDEBAND reads EXTRAAAAA LEAN, like 20.9 or more... DONT PANIC, thats logic, cause there is no fuel....
Well, im tired.. just ask questions if you have more doubts, and i will answer them the best as i can.
good luck.
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Questions/Answers
Originally Posted by Beckerton View Post
I had the opportunity to chat with hjdanzi and this is what he shed some light on...
1) The numbers in the cells on the fuel map are not directly related to any "REAL" fuel value. If a cell contains the number 25 it does not represent 25 of anything. 25 is a number that is simply used to represent some quantity of fuel. If you are tuning and a cell containing the number 25 is rich (according to wideband) you then lean that cell out by inputting a lower number, if it is lean, you add fuel by inputting a number larger than 25.
Exactly.. those numbers dont mean anything.. the higher the value the more fuel... the lower the value.. less fuel... So If i have a 10 number and i see my wideband and its lean, then i have to increase that 10 value. If it shows rich, then i have to lean it out.
2) Street tune and then dyno tune
3) Only street tune fuel values, leave ignition tuning until you can access a dyno.
RIGHT
This is because you are looking to determine Maximum Brake Torque. YES, IN THE DYNO Once this is found you can begin to advance timing... NO!!!! YOU ADVANCE TIMING UNTIL YOU FIND MBT.. IN THAT SPOR.. power is no longer gained, then pull timing 2 degrees to be safe.
You dont touch timing in the street, unless you have a detonation can and a very trained ear. So.. once in the dyno you search for MBT. Thats the spot where the most powwer is reached by advancing timing.. and once you spot it.. you should stop and back it up a little. You will spot MBT cause you will no longer make any power and it may drop too.
4) The 2D graphs in Crome offer a great visual interpretation of the data located in the tables.
YES
5) Ignition curves in the above mentioned graphs may touch, but never cross.
Right.. its not a good idea that curves cross (in the 2 dimension graphs)..
6) The numbers in the cells are fairly useless on an individual basis, but when looking at all of the numbers as a "whole" you get a better picture of what is going on.
Yes.. for example when a basemap is a mess.. like a basemap that has the same cell's colour in all the cams.. like.. its always at wot or always idling.
hjdanzi did a great job explaining some things to me on a level I could understand. I really appreciate him taking the time to go over some things with me. If any of this information is wrong it's because I misinterpreted what he was saying, but overall these things seem to make logical sense.
Thank you HJDANZI!
Originally Posted by Beckerton View Post
Dude, I read your engine rebuild thread. That definitely sucks. I tried looking into Argentinian import laws but couldn't find much. I was going to try find some sort of loophole. You guys have really weird import/export laws. I saw somewhere you aren't allowed to export new computers or colour TV's. So weird! Anyhow, keep us posted with your progress on the D16Z6 and your experience with the Hondata s300. Good luck.
- Chris
Thanks a lot for all your effort man, i really appreciate it!!! believe me!
*Update* (Just a question I have and I don't see any sense posting a new reply)
I have been doing a lot of thinking about tuning. It has been explained to me that tuning ignition on the street can be a bad thing to do and is better left to a dyno. I don't have access to a dyno in my area (Northern Ontario, closest dyno I can find is approximately 7 hours away).
I understand that there are a couple very good reasons to have a car dyno tuned.
1) You are tuning in a controlled environment that minimizes variables (Wind speed, direction, terrain, weather conditions etc...
2) You can measure the results of your tuning actions (Are changes making positive gains or are they detrimental)
3) Results are more easily replicated on a dyno.
Now, the conclusion that I have come to is that when tuning, the most crucial component is to measure the results of your tuning, especially when considering things mentioned in previous posts in this thread.
Tuning the fuel maps should prove fairly easy, whether you tune them on the street or the dyno. I'm going to say they are more easily tuned on a dyno, but it is not impossible to be done in the street.
No is not... its not impossible, i guess that experience makes you wise... for example Blake (98vtec) can tune all the map on the street... well.. in my case, i dont feel ready to tune ignition on the street, even with a detonation can and many other things. This was discussed a few posts above, but i still fear to touch ignition on the street. I guess, the easiest way is to do street & dyno tune, but yeah, street tuning alone is better that not tuning at all.
I don't feel that a dyno is necessary for this step.
Tuning ignition is definitely easier on a dyno in the respect that you do not have road noise (Wind noise, tires on pavement, ability to hold steady rpm longer etc etc)
In the dyno you dont hear a damn thing.. i mean its so loud.!!! you have to use those ear protectors.. ignition in the dyno is easier cause you can see the charts to spot MBT and stop right there.. BEFORE PINGING.
Also, as explained to me, you want to tune to find MBT or maximum brake torque. Now in order to tune for maximum brake torque you need to know when you are no longer making power while tuning. A dyno is the best tool to determine this because it graphs that information out in a neat and organized manner.
YES
This is where my recent thoughts come into play. Is a dyno really necessary in determining MBT?
For a guy like me.. yeah... maybe for Blake NO!.. but i guess Blake will also need a dyno to tune ignition if he is tuning some fraky 500whp beast... so its necesary at some point for any guy.
I have seen products advertised that claim they are capable of calculating 0-60,1/8 mile, and 1/4 mile times. These same devices are said to calculate HP and TQ ratings within 1%. So would it not be possible to tune for MBT using one of these?
I know a guy that use them... i dont remember the name of the device.. i think its called g-force or something.. but i dont really think they work... I mean... that would be something similar to the butt dyno, that is when you feel any difference in your body while making changes and driving.
I understand that these devices probably won't give me numbers that will match with actual dyno readouts. That is fine with me, because at this point I don't care what I'm making for numbers, I care about making gains. The accuracy of these items holds no bearing on their usefulness to tune, however, they must be fairly consistent to be used as a tool to achieve MBT.
It doesn't matter how accurate the device is in measuring ACTUAL HP and TQ, but it would need to be consistent run after run.
I think you are trying to convince yourself that a dyno is not necesary cause you dont have one available... My opinion is that as long as you arent tuning some BESTIAL HP CAR... you will be fine in the street. So dont worry man, i totaly understand you. there are many people who tunes all the car JUST IN THE STREET using just a detonation can and an EGT gauge and their trained EAR.
As long as the device is capable of showing gains or losses in correlation to tuning changes then I think that they could be used to achieve a better street tune than without, but not as good of a tune as a dyno. Am I off my rocker for thinking that by using one of these, in conjunction with a wideband and det can, an individual could tune their own vehicle to a point where it falls between street and dyno tune?
I guess so, lol ( we are similar, you and me.., lol.. )
Any input, reasons why it would or wouldn't and any corrections are welcomed. hjdanzi, sorry for posting this in your thread but this is probably the best tuning thread on PP and it seems to have captured the attention of reputable tuners. I'd like to hear your opinion as well!
Last edited by bluenc-87; 10-04-2021 at 08:55 AM.
06-13-2018, 06:07 AM
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Re: Step-By-Step: CROME Tuning 101 - The Basics
Dude! This is exat what I was going to look for and it just showed up when I logged in to HT!!!!
I skimmed through the tutorial but one question reamains. If I buy an ecu that is already chipped and flashed, let's say with hondata, can I still use crome? Or do I have to use hondata?
I skimmed through the tutorial but one question reamains. If I buy an ecu that is already chipped and flashed, let's say with hondata, can I still use crome? Or do I have to use hondata?
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