cityofcaterpillars

are there any write ups for ignition tuning with Hondata? I'm going to be street tuning with a det can and using the spark plugs. I know people are going to say only do it on a dyno but I want to learn how to do it on my own. I'm going to be doing this with a spare engine.

I get the theory in the tuning the ignition. Just not exactly how to do it in the maps.

2x0

https://www.hondata.com/help/smanage...tiontables.htm

Read thru all of the help guides from Hondata so you understand what all of the features are and how to use them in Smanager.

When you add boost tables in Smanager I believe it factors in a certain degree of timing retard per psi. I street tuned my del sol back in the day, and a safe starting point for 93 pump gas was always -1 degree per psi. In the tables you can basically highlight a column based on amount of vac or boost and add or deduct timing. It's pretty straightforward.

cityofcaterpillars

so its more of adjusting by column thing then

I understand how to read a spark plug and listen for detonation. I guess my question would be how do I apply these to specific columns

2x0

I am not experienced at fine tuning the ignition, on mine I just set conservative numbers and never had any issues, because I wasn't looking to maximize power.

When they dyno tune, I imagine they start with conservative timing then advance to increase hp until pinging occurs, then back it down slightly. Problem is you would need to pay attention to boost and rpm to know where to adjust timing each time you do a pull, if you don't have a knock sensor and datalogs.

cityofcaterpillars

I know I'm not going to be able to get the most power out of a street tuned and that's not really my goal either. More of just a safe tune that's not going to kill the engine

blackeg

you usually advance until there is little to no gain in torque then back it down 2 degrees seems to be a common number.

you can check the motor at various rpm by killing the engine during a pull and checking the plugs but its a time consuming and tedious bitch. You may also want to utilize virtual dyno with the datalogs while not perfect its certainly helpful.

cityofcaterpillars

That would be one of my questions about checking plugs. Say for instance I do a 2nd gear pull. I cut the engine and check the plug. How do I know where in the ignition map that data applies to. Is there an option in Hondata to say start data logging only at a predetermined amount of throttle? I could see how that would work but that doesn't really help with partial throttle tuning

2x0

This is the problem with street tuning, you don't know. Like blackeg said, only on a dyno where you have clear indication of your torque curve, RPM and load can you make accurate adjustments to specific parts of the table. Without that, you basically have to adjust all of your boost columns together, and some areas are bound to be tuned more conservatively than others with this method.

cityofcaterpillars

That's frustrating I'm very much a do it yourself whenever possible person. I guess not all can be done on your own though

80%downtime

Making adjustments to the ignition table without accurate measurements from a dyno is a blind shot in the dark. The reason you have to use a dyno is to accurately find the MBT, then once you find it, you dial the ignition back about 2 degrees because your conditions for combustion may fluctuate with each tank slightly and you want to be safe. If you're ballsy and don't mind rebuilding engines should they fail, you can definitely omit the 2 degrees. If you hit knock before you hit MBT, adjust your fueling to see if you can richen to prevent the knock or just pull the timing back a little and not chase MBT. Any adjustments you make that are based on feel (on street) may not necessarily give you the actual values you need. You may actually knock before you hit MBT or miss MBT and go overboard because you thought knock was a solid indicator of MBT (it's not).
Think of dyno time like a wideband. You need specific tools to tell you if you're tuning right. The time on the dyno is no different. You can skip it and use other indicators (such as spark plug reading), but you sacrifice accuracy with this and may run into different potential problems down the line.

IF -and this is presuming you have some sort of way of measuring torque through datalogging- you have a readout of torque, you can use it to gauge MBT at the cost of some accuracy. It's better than trying to do it by feel.

blackeg

it can be done on your own, or at least by you just on the dyno. it really is 1000%easier. that said i still often tune on the street. even if its just a few pulls and datalogs to make sure things are still on point with afr etc. you can always just use a real safe timing retard on the street and do work on your fuel maps so you hit the dyno pretty much the only thing to do is timing and possibly cam gear adjustments. it can cut an hour or 2 off your dyno time and save you some cash

cityofcaterpillars

I think that's my plan. I'm gonna do the standard retard timing 1* per lb of boost. Do my AFR and then fine tune timing on a dyno. I found a Dyno like 45 mins from me. He said it would run me $275 - $375

motoxxxman

I agree with most everything above, and will add this: if timing is not already ideal everywhere, even if you do get fuel dialed in to what appears perfect, as you alter the timing it will affect the afr readouts. sometimes it will be an accurate change, sometimes it will not be an accurate change in readings. for example, if you start with ideal fuel and timing, and you start to retard the timing further and further, the afr will start to lean out a little and gradually lean out much faster as you continue to pull timing. This is NOT an indication of it actually running lean, it is merely an indication of the air/fuel mixture having higher levels of unburned oxygen in the exhaust, due to an incomplete burn or even mild misfire. it goes the other way too, where if you start with ideal fuel and timing, if you start to advance timing past ideal, the afr reading will begin to lean out again as well, because the knock that starts to occur causes excessive turbulence, which then causes incomplete or inefficient burn.
this being said, it is a theory that you can adjust timing according to the afr reading, in that ideal timing will usually provide the richest afr reading if you never alter the fuel adjustment during this process. just be cautious, as it is not a perfect theory, and other things come into play like the fact that running too rich can actually cause knock, and too rich or too lean will alter what the ideal timing for that condition actually is. Because more fuel increases combustion chamber pressure, which speeds up the burn, while more fuel cools the chamber and slows down the burn. and less fuel creates lower combustion chamber pressure, but also increases burn temp. constant back and forth of factors.
but overall, keep this in mind. if the engine runs a little rough and seems like a misfire, look at the afr. if afr is lean, try adding some fuel. if the condition stays the same or gets worse, or if adding fuel has little effect on afr, it means you either have way too much ignition or nowhere near enough ignition. so you'd then want to adjust ignition to get it to run better, then readjust fuel to bring afr back to a "normal" level