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Not everyone can afford a professional dyno tune, not to mention the hardware that warrants such a process. But when it comes to socketing an ecu, data logging capabilities, and a decent AF gauge, the affordability becomes more universal. I know the benefits of setting maps for a car with only intake, headers, and exhaust are minimal, but the experience in tuning its self must be worth something. This is the discussion I'm hoping to provoke:
The benefits of a chipped ECU and setting up maps, even on a stock or nearly stock car. (Benefits not only meaning hp gains, but experience, logged data, familiarity for a time when tuning is absolutely necessary)
Should we go about our build schemes backwards, if you will. As in, socket our ecu, start studying the stock maps, maybe do a little tweaking, all the while closely monitoring A/F and diligently logging data, and after becoming completely comfortable with the process then going on to bigger physical things. (i.e. turbo, cams, forged internals, ect..) And in doing so, is it possible we can just tune our own cars instead of paying 1000$+ dollars for a tune?
Obviously we can't all own dyno's... but every major city has a dyno day where you can get your car on for cheap and make your own adjustments, thus becoming your own tuner.
The cost of an average turbo kit is what? 1,200-3,000$ (and can vary completely from that, i'm scraping bottom of the barrel ebay numbers) when a socketing kit is like 20$, chrome is free, (i'd pay the little extra for the data logging feature) I've seen some very reasonable A/F gauges/sensor kits in the 250$ range. Why not do these things first on a stock car and go from there? has anyone done this? how was the experience? I'm just hoping to start a conversation about build priorities/routes and the over-all theme being budget consciousness, and experience benefits. I'm not trying to get anyone to hold my hand through a build or anything I just want to hear your guys' opinions about directions you've taken, or stories of people who've gone different routes in the tuning world.
The main issue you always have to keep in mind is equipment when it comes to tuning, I'd say you need a chip burner $85, emulator $175 crome $150 laptop $300-600 wideband $150-$250 depends on what you have accessible, im probably forgetting couple things to tune with Crome, not too sure the main issue is making sure you keep ignition timing in safe enough with boost level, I'm leaning towards tuning myself with Neptune, so hope the best for you
The main issue you always have to keep in mind is equipment when it comes to tuning, I'd say you need a chip burner $85, emulator $175 crome $150 laptop $300-600 wideband $150-$250 depends on what you have accessible, im probably forgetting couple things to tune with Crome, not too sure the main issue is making sure you keep ignition timing in safe enough with boost level, I'm leaning towards tuning myself with Neptune, so hope the best for you
I'm assuming everyone has access to a laptop or computer because of their membership to the site, but i'm in the same boat. I'm not a hundred percent sure of every last piece of equipment I need. I have a 95 gsr which is really convenient in that I don't need obd2-obd1 adapters or other such bs, but i'm still not sure of every piece of hardware required. I know for certain, the 28 pin socket, a chip, the resistor, a burner, emulator, a/f sensor (which I guess is optional but I wouldn't go without), and then the software. But still, we're talking like 1000$ max? maybe more if you need to buy the ecu but still kinda seems like a small investment based on what some people dump on things like rims....
I agree though that a huge aspect of this DIY tuning idea is safety, no one wants to blow their motor. A/F sensor is the only safety component i'm aware of and I made this thread so hopefully some people will chime in. Datalogging would probably contribute to safety by knowing about a potential problem and fixing it prior to devastation. I'm no tuner, just spending hours on the internet trying to learn what I can.
I think every tuner started messing around his/her own car. Tuning requires experience and knowledge. Knowledge that you can get on books, videos, guides, tutorials, and other tuners. Experience is the thing you will get day over day messing around your car (and then, your friends car), there are no secrets. If you know perfectly how an engine works, well my friend, you are going on the right way.
I think every tuner started messing around his/her own car. Tuning requires experience and knowledge. Knowledge that you can get on books, videos, guides, tutorials, and other tuners. Experience is the thing you will get day over day messing around your car (and then, your friends car), there are no secrets. If you know perfectly how an engine works, well my friend, you are going on the right way.
Very well said!
I see you really want to start with chipping ECUs, however I would suggest just starting with a used Hondata/Crome/Neptune ECU. They're abundant and that will save you the time and money versus assembling one from scratch.
Couple things to add to this discussion:
You have a good approach so far. Tune what you have and then tune again as you add parts (i.e. camshafts, pistons, etc). Throwing a turbo kit on and then learning how to tune will make your learning curve a bit steeper, although not impossible.
Don't be afraid to make a change when you tune, just be sure to do it in small increments and make 1 to 2 changes at a time. You'd be pretty surprised just how resilient engines are.
I've learned that dynos are essential to tuning. You can get close on a street tune but to actually see a measureable difference in the changes you're implementing on your tune without any outside factors skewing results, the dyno is where it's at. If you factor in the possibility of running into the law, the cost for a dyno session will be actually reasonable.
AFR gauges are absolutely essential, however not all AFR gauges are accurate. Part of the cost of a dyno session includes the cost of the O2 sensors they use, which should be lab grade sensors. These things are not cheap and their readings will differ from your run of the mill AFR gauges.
You'll get better as you start diving into tuning. You can read about it until you are blue in the face, but at some point, you'll just have to dive in, try a few changes, make a couple mistakes, ask a few questions, and repeat. Good luck.
Thank you guys, great input, very motivating. I checked out the moates - Neptune tutorial and it seems there are plenty of sources for either pre-socket'd/chipped ecu's or the chip kit's themselves, and plenty of instructions on how to install and fiddle. It's all very exciting to me and i'm glad to hear that my path isn't bass ackwards, one of complete destruction. I know a good amount about the ICE, I just graduated an automotive school out in Chico, CA. great school. has a partnership with Honda too believe it or not. But I don't want to be done learning, I feel like there's a never ending source of knowledge regarding efficiency and performance of that sweet gasoline.
I just wish I was more competent with a soldering iron.... lol
I've read all sticky articles and they are great, also visited the noted cites. After doing more research i'm beginning to lean towards the hondata s300 direction. The Smanager software was a free download, and the hondata ecu comes prebuilt with data logging capabilities, usb connectivity, ready to program, the whole nine yards. For the 500$ ish dollars for everything you'd want on the hardware side of the control unit. No soldering or anything. Almost too easy, kinda veering from the idea of DIY, but it does jump start you straight into the tuning side of it, done from a lap top. The guides provided with the Smanager software seem very helpful.
Another cool aspect of this route is that the ecu which is currently controlling my vehicle can be removed and sold, or, used as practice with a 20$ chip kit. I can take my time, invest in proper soldering equipment, and practice on a bunch of other things, boosting my confidence, all the while running my car on the Hondata s300
The one question I have about the hondata route is how do I decide on the settings of my first values, my basemap I guess you could call it. Other kits and companies usually ask for the vehicles specs and a couple desired values, and send the modifiable component with a starting point. I'm afraid that with hondata I won't know where to start, potentially setting a map that could damage the ICE. But, before i'd ever fire up a car with an untested map I would spend days, maybe weeks studying maps I can find online, and maybe OEM maps if they're avliable, and use values close to these for my hondata set up.
Thanks for the input everyone, i'm just listing another route to ponder
S manager should have a bunch of kal files (maps) ranging from stock to modified you could use for your car. Pick one and go from there. Your car should start right up. Not having to spend time on the DIY part allows you to focus more on tuning. As you dive deeper into Hondata, you'll start to want more features, which means upgrading to a more serious standalone. Oh the slippery slope.
Great idea for the thread. I'm from Poland. Tuning is not so popular here yet. Not much info also. fortunately I know english enough to read and learn from us web. In my town I found only 1 tuner which is expensive and doesn't has a dyno. I don't trust him, so I decided to tune my car myself and get some experience. Just got an ostrich 2,0 and burner. Got it new from one guy but chipper than new set in us. Also bought used innovate lc2 from another guy (now waiting for the package). Got p06, went to electronic shop in my neighbourhood bought elements I needed to chip ecu. Have never soldering anything electronic, only wires in car harnesses but I succeded. Downloaded crome free, installed ostrich, burn a map and plugged to car. Was affraid but engine started. when my lc2 come will play some more. have f22 with light mods. Now i'm in process of gathering stuff for my turbo install, which I hope will happen in few months. To this time I'm going to get as much as posssible experience with crome and tuning.
Have also few qestions. If someone can answer will be thankfull.
Free roms are generally for civic and integras. Can I use p72 integra rom for base map? As my Accord is 2,2 and integra 1.8 should I increase fuel? Or just throw it to ecu, check afr and start tuning? Anyone knows what happend to pgmfi.org? Since last week I try to enter site, but it says we will be back soon
the ICE typically refers to the internal combustion engine, although used primarily when discussing hybrid and alternative fuel vehicles with multiple power sources. I like using the acronym because it quickly describes the machine which we all know and love.
The more I read the more evidence I find to support the route of the hondata s300. For 500$ you get the ecu, ready for data logging, modification, usb hook ups, and software and tutorials to back it all up. The only other pieces of hardware which I find completely necessary for the DIY tuner is the A/F sensor, gauge, and a means by which this information can be monitored by the computer. I've seen great innovative kits that run in the 300$ range. So we're talking 800-900$ total and you can gain the ability to safely tune your own vehicle, starting from the stock maps and fiddling around until a dyno day comes to your city and you can put your trail and error to the test, to find exactly the results of your tweaks.
Added benefit of going this route would be the ease of swapping back in the old ECU if and when it came time to smog. OR this extra ECU could be chipped and socketed as practice and if the final result is satisfactory, boom, an ECU ready for the next build or straight sale.
a hondata or whatever choice can pass smog no prob. At least where I live. But yup its pretty easy. Get your ECU and wideband plugged in. Upload a map, set the injector size, lock timing in the software while you adjust the distributor, and then off to races.
With a basic understanding of Air fuel ratio, start adjusting the fuel maps in open loop. Best way is to get a friend to drive the car around, and then upload changes while they drive. You want to keep the lines even and consistent, no crossing, and no major gaps, with a steady increase in AFR as load increases. The fuel can be tuned this way in 2hrs or less if you know what to do. Then put the computer in closed loop and let the o2 control most of the driving, and you will pass smog.
I recommend getting on the forum for whatever ECU you buy. Hondata has tons of maps on its forum to download for all engines and setups. With an inventory of maps you can study different parameter settings, and the best way to setup your tune. You can tell a good tune by the cleanliness of the fuel and ignition maps. Study different ignition maps, and input the map which seems most appropriate into your tune. Ive found that a lot of the tunes out there have way too aggressive timing. Using a conservative timing map will keep the plugs and rings in good shape.
a hondata or whatever choice can pass smog no prob. At least where I live. But yup its pretty easy. Get your ECU and wideband plugged in. Upload a map, set the injector size, lock timing in the software while you adjust the distributor, and then off to races.
With a basic understanding of Air fuel ratio, start adjusting the fuel maps in open loop. Best way is to get a friend to drive the car around, and then upload changes while they drive. You want to keep the lines even and consistent, no crossing, and no major gaps, with a steady increase in AFR as load increases. The fuel can be tuned this way in 2hrs or less if you know what to do. Then put the computer in closed loop and let the o2 control most of the driving, and you will pass smog.
I recommend getting on the forum for whatever ECU you buy. Hondata has tons of maps on its forum to download for all engines and setups. With an inventory of maps you can study different parameter settings, and the best way to setup your tune. You can tell a good tune by the cleanliness of the fuel and ignition maps. Study different ignition maps, and input the map which seems most appropriate into your tune. Ive found that a lot of the tunes out there have way too aggressive timing. Using a conservative timing map will keep the plugs and rings in good shape.
This advice is golden, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. This is exactly why I started the thread. I hope this information will help other's in my same position.
I plan to begin tuning with the intake, headers, exhaust and decked head being the only mechanical upgrades. And add components, and tune as I go along, allowing for a better understanding of the effects of these components and tuning for their optimal efficiency. I especially appreciate the reference to the Hondata forum, I may not have even thought of that.
I think I'll hold on to the ECU that's in there currently, chip it myself, and install it into my next build, I really want another eg hatch gsr swap, I miss mine badly, and by the time i'm ready to start the build I'll have a vast knowledge of how to tune it properly based on the parts I throw at it.
The hondata ECU route may not be the cheapest but it seems like it's the most straight forward, and definitely the most inclusive when it comes to necessary components to making a tune happen. Outside of the innovative A/F sensor which I plan to include.
thanks again for everyone's input, and anyone reading this thread please feel free to post a question if you have one and you couldn't find the answer amongst the priceless literature in the sticky
I just tuned my D16Z6 that I swapped into my CRX with an Innovate wideband kit, moates burner, and crome. Took about 2 weeks of goofing around but my AFRs are now solid and all I need to do is fiddle with ignition timing a bit. Spent $300 of recoverable cash so far as I can sell the wideband kit and burner if need be. Very cool process, glad I did myself.
if you're under the impression that DIY is cheaper, I'll stop you right there.
Assuming you don't cause engine damage, in order to get a PROPER tune the cost of instruments (burner, emulator/RTP, wideband) and licensing will exceed or match the cost of a pro tune.
You're going to need a LOT of spare time to learn and practice.
Read the manual in my signature if you're stubborn enough, but I have to that dick that keeps it real.
Happy tuning
Just be careful if your going to tune it yourself. I know somebody that did that on there 2015 STI and blew it up. For me I have a base map install on my ECU and I'm afraid to even go in there to make any changes.
If you keep the AFRs in line and don't touch the ignition and more advanced settings until you have more experience, I don't see tuning as being necessarily more dangerous than any other sort of modification. But I'd also advise someone to start with a mild build.
Almost every Megasquirt install starts from scratch. Timing can be a little tough but most of these installs are a fairly know build. Knock sensors really help here. Fuel is fairly easy under about 15 lbs of boost.
I will be bringing up an ITB B18C real soon. For me, tuning is the fun part.
Andy
Last edited by whittlebeast; 08-12-2016 at 03:51 AM.
01-19-2016, 08:30 PM
DIY tuning, a discussion
