94 Civic Si

B18C1 - I pulled the head and sent it out for full rebuild/valve job. Machinist said head was flat and and gave it a new surface. He said the block was flat and told me to give the block a pass with some 1000 grit sand paper before new gasket.

New Honda head gasket, new head bolts from Honda. I think I installed the head gasket correctly. I oiled the threads of the new head bolts, but I failed to apply oil under the bolt head!

I torqued each bolt in the pattern as per the FSM in 2 steps: 22 ft-lbs, and then same pattern to 63 ft-lbs.

You can see the coolant leak - if I did not oil the bolt heads, then I am likely under torqued, yes?

Can I simply go back in (ugh) and loosen the head bolts, correctly oil the bolt heads, and re-torque?

Or are the head bolts junk since I torqued them once?

What about the gasket? Is it garbage since it has leaked?

Thanks all. This is a bummer...

m90polk1

Dowel pins are brand new or at least in good condition? From what I see you have almost everything covered, only thing I could think is it's not lining up and seating 100% which sucks.

94 Civic Si

I re-used my dowel pins, they looked fine.

TomCat39

The other thing not mentioned often. When you install an MLS head gasket, you should let the engine sit a minimum of 45 minutes before adding fluid and starting.

When I was doing all my research on head gasket repair, that was some key information I found outside of Honda-Tech in regards to MLS gaskets.

I let mine sit at least a couple of hours before adding fluids and starting after the torque sequence.

The other detail I do is I practice a 3 stage torquing sequence. Many of the FSM's only show 2 stages. So if it says 24 ft-lbs then 62 ft-lbs, I add a stage in the middle at say 44 ft-lbs.

94 Civic Si

Thanks TC. What is MLS stand for?

Not sure if this caused a problem, but we installed the gasket and head Monday night, and then came back and torqued head bolts Tuesday and added oil Tuesday. I did not add coolant until yesterday (Saturday).

Then I did compression test (numbers were fairly even), then spark plugs, hook up distributor, hook up FI relay, connect battery, and then fired it up.

We did put an old head bolt in at the #2 location, to make sure the head did not rock back Tuesday night. Could this have distorted the head gasket?

Thank you for the information on the 3-stage torque sequence.

JRCivic1

MLS = Multi-Layered Steel. I posted some suggestions in your other thread. In the future, please refrain from posting the same topic more than once... select the sub-forum that you believe most closely represents the type/class of issue that you need help with and post there. If this turns out to be an incorrect location, a moderator may move it. Keeping all of your responses in one place will make things easier to keep track of and will be far more helpful to others who might have the same issue in the future. Posting in two places will not get you help any faster.

turbociv910

you cannot use old bolts.. even 1. I did and mine leaked like that.

94 Civic Si

Agreed, and you have my apologies.

At first I was not sure if my problem was related to my assembly work. When I realized it was, I posted here. I have asked Moderator @TomCat39 if he can combine the 2 threads.

Again, my apologies...

TomCat39

It is better etiquette. But there is also the argument that not all professional insight visits or goes to the forum you posted in. So in the name of collecting some professional response, I could see double posting the same thread in the forum they do visit. Granted I would have waited some time to see how the first thread did before going for a "second opinion" though.

And the argument on the side of searching, you will get 50 threads all about the same thing being the other etiquette was to not add to existing threads with another car but keep each car separate. So really it's not too much more confusing than having multiple bloated threads all about the same issue.

This is why I didn't worry about merging your threads. I figured which ever one gave you the best responses would be the one that stayed alive longer. The other would quietly float down into the abyss.

94 Civic Si

Thanks TC. Once I had the "Ah-ha!" moment of forgetting to oil the head of the bolt I figured I was engine assembly territory and sprang over here. I was racing the clock b/c I lost my indoor heated space yesterday so I was trying to figure this out with a quickness.

Thanks again, hope I did not add too much drama to your day.

94 Civic Si

I talked with my machinist who surfaced and rebuilt the head about these exploits and he said I certainly could try oiling and re-torquing the bolts.

His suggestions were to pull only one bolt at a time, re-oil, then replace bolt and torque to spec (63 ft-lbs) in one step.

So I tried it.

First test was running engine to temp @ 2000 RPM with burp funnel. Area of block previously photographed stayed dry - nice!

Next test - radiator cap on, run engine to temp @ 2000 RPM - block stays dry - better!

Next test - drive her! She felt okay, not great, but I had just thrown the distributor in the middle of the adjustment range and did not set timing.

I drove her with varied throttle - on and then off and then on in order to give the rings the best break-in possible.

Then I stopped at a gas station to put some fresh fuel in and popped the hood...

The splatters you see are just above the block coolant drain. I think they are oil. Before I fired her up again a drenched the wet spot on the block with brake-clean, followed by compressed air. When I started her and the header got hot, it smelled like burning oil. No smell of antifreeze in the exhaust.

Can anyone confirm that the ribs on either side of this area are oil return passages?

Next steps are to run some oil dye and then black-light the area.

Disappointing!

94 Civic Si

I do not know why this picture loads sideways. The left side is the top, where you can see the header bolt.

So I did not get lucky.

I saw on this build thread where they like to put Hindabond around the oil return passages in the head gasket: The Old One - Energy Dynamics

Not sure if that is just b/c they are mating a VTEC head to a B20 block?

They also mention shortening the dowels that align the head and block by any amount removed from the head? I did not know the height was that specific?

I need to ask my machinist if he shortened the dowels when he surfaced my head. Of course, if he did not, and they are interfering, that likely means I have a warped head now, eh?

DumpdEJ6

Possibly. I didn't shorten mine when I did my LS-VTEC, but then again I did use the specific dowel pins that Golden Eagle supplied with their kit, not sure if those are shortened from the factory. I have heard about the Hondabond/sealant around the oil return holes, although I didn't use it myself. I had a small leak around the area under the distributor/vtec solenoid, I just folded up a shop towel and wedged it tight under the head overhang, lol. No issues to this day. (3 years, 5k miles...yeah I don't daily it lol)

My input probably isn't that helpful, but mostly I just wanted to encourage you. I thought I had bad head gasket when I first started up my engine (lots of coolant in the oil) then took the head off and put a new gasket on, only to find out that I routed a coolant line into my crankcase thinking it was a vacuum line. We all have setbacks, sometimes you have to go 2 steps back to get one step forward, but in the end when it all works, it's worth it.

TomCat39

Curious here, was this done with or without loosening the head bolts after you discovered the corner leak?

94 Civic Si

Thank you! Encouragement is exactly what I need right now. It can be disappointing when it seems like everything you touch goes back 2 steps...

Right now I had to move on to some maintenance items on other cars, so the Civic has to wait until I can get back to her, which will probably give me more patience!

Thanks again.

Mach1n1st

Is the picture of the block deck surface the actual block in question? If so there are spots of concern on it that more than likely are leading to your issue.

94 Civic Si

Yes, that is my deck block.

What do you see?

The machinist told me to sand the deck with some 1000 grit. I wrapped some wet/dry 1000 grit around a block of wood and went length-wise before putting the head on.

PyroProblem

Im sorry but I think this is bad advice. If the block was decked/machined properly, why would you need to finish it off with a 1000 grit?
I think you need a quality straight edge and check the deck of the block. There is a procedure outlined in the FSM.

If the block and head are still assembled, you could try a pressure test on the cooling system and then inspect the area for leaks.
If you suspect the area is an oil return (i think its an oil return passage in the area you show), you could plug off the PCV system and block off the crankcase, then very gently add air pressure. I wouldnt go past 5 psi MAX as this will force oil seals to leak...

Good luck.

PyroProblem

Actually...After looking at the pic some more, Is it possible the oil is coming out of your exhaust ports and tracing down to were you see it leaking?
Assuming its burning a little oil due to rings being broke in...Id pull the exhaust manifold and see if the ports are covered in oil...
Just a thought...

94 Civic Si

Thank you for that thought! The machinist, and another friend/mechanic took a look and thought I had old header funk coming out at the header flange. This picture was from after I had dyed the oil, but it definitely looks like it is from the flange, not from the head gasket. I did not clean the inside of the header while it is off...

PyroProblem

Being the oil is black/dark and assuming the oil is clean (fresh low mileage) on the dipstick, this could also indicate oil is being burnt and expelled through the exhaust.

94 Civic Si

I agree. After I installed each piston/rod assembly I added some oil to the top of each piston so the top ring would spread oil on the cylinder wall while I was turning over the engine. This probably resulted in more oil than normal in the combustion chamber for the initial light off.

bks84

iTrader: (9)

have you removed the header to see if this is coming out of the exhaust ports? both new traces are right under the ports of the header...

94 Civic Si

That is what I suspect - coming out of the header. There is not a lot of clearance to get that header off, so I torqued it down and shot the underside of the head with brake clean. I will check it again next weekend.