gringotegra

How to make your FWD car HOOK better. I've come to realize so many people out there are still behind the times at getting their car to stick. here are the key points I have learned over the years. Most of these are geared towards street cars but applies to Drag cars too. Feel free to add any info.


1. ALIGNMENT. Kind of a big deal. If you're cambered out, low and have 2" of tire touching the ground ***** not gonna hook.


2. TIRE COMPOUND. I have tried a few tires over the years. Currently I am a huge fan of the R888. I ran the NeoGens before and loved them too. I have also tried some M&H Bias Ply radials and hated them for a few reasons

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3. TIRE SIZE. Obviously a "bigger and taller" tire should do better than a smaller one. I believe this to an extent. You CAN go to big and in turn mess with your gear ratio. For example: 235/60/15 is almost a 26" tall tire...if you are a 60 roll kind of racer then this will more than likely put you at too low of an rpm in 3rd gear and you'd have to do 2nd gear runs at that mph. If you were to gear the Trans right, sure you can make it work. 23-24"" tall tires seem to a good median. I run 225/50/16's which are a 24.8" tall tire and I can hook all 800 in 4th on the street. (I don't know K series ratios very well so don't quote me on that mph and gear ratio for them lol)


4. WASTEGATE PRESSURE. So if you're lowest boost is 22psi...and your car makes say 600whp there...then you have no use of 1st/2nd at all. You want to get the spring as low as possible while in turn still be able to run high boost. I run a 6psi spring and still get 40+psi using a 4-port boost controller.


5. BOOST CURVE. Ideally at the track on slicks you want as big of a powerband as you can get, so you ramp the boost in as soon as as hard as it can. On the street having 500ftlbs at 5500rpm is not going to help you at all in a fwd car! Light switch boost isn't going to help either. I like to think a linear boost curve is the way to go on the street unless you have ridiculous traction already.


6. BOOST BY GEAR. Here is a big one. Having the ability to have different power levels in each gear is going to be help you a **** ton. Having your car at 34psi in every gear, isn't helping you at all at the track or on the street. My car on the street is setup like: 1st-6psi, 2nd-12psi, 3rd-27psi, 4th/5th 35psi+.


7. CORNER BALANCING!! This is one 95% of the people out there don't do and it's probably one of the biggest advantages. Basically in a fwd drag/street car you want BOTH front tires to weigh the same WITH you in the car or however you race it. My car weighs 2540 with me in it, have exactly 840lbs on each front tire. This was a game changer for my car about 4 years ago. Every time you change from street tires to slicks you NEED to re-corner balance it. As soon as ride height changes everything changes!


8. TRACTION CONTROL. People think traction control is the answer to everything traction related. WRONG, everything I say above NEEDS to be done first to have the best chance of getting it to hook. Traction control is simply there to act as a safety net so you can run the power right up to the max leaving nothing on the table, hopefully preventing tire spin and wasting a run by blowing off the tires. TC can be quicker not because cutting engine power is making a faster car but because IN THEORY the car is always putting down all it can! Boost by gear NEEDS to be done in conjunction with TC. If your car can hook 700 in X gear it doesn't help to throw 900 at it in the same gear and let TC take over lol.


Those are the KEY points I have learned over the years. There are more, like adding weight to the front of the car and aero chances that will all help. But these are the KEY things our cars need to help them hook!

rudebwoy

iTrader: (1)

Great information

Pullig

Do you have any specific alignment settings or just stock? Im running 225/45/16 Toyo R1R on my ek 500whp able to run max power in 3rd and 4th

h2.4

Thank you for sharing Gringo!!!

Bently_Coop

Thanks for information. Sticky?

Bushings or bearings or a combination?

drmix

Good info! Decent set of motor mounts also help too

Caoboy

What about suspension spring rates?

95eggsr66

good info.
keep front end solid, i have a good set of mounts and the avid torque mounts and it did wonders.

limited slip diff is also very necessary

but #1 should deff be tire compound

Sway5000

I'd like to thank Gringo for getting this started, but if anyone has any specifics on the topics he touched on such as corner weighing specifics/baseline (front to back/side to side/cross splits) as well as suspension alignment specs/baseline. That would be greatly appreciated. Of course every set up is different, and will respond differently to inputs, but a starting baseline would be great for those who dont know where to begin.

Dark_Teg

I used to wonder why my car wouldn't hook. Even on slicks I was pulling 2.0 60ft's. Then one day I went to a good track that was well prepped and all of the sudden I could pull 1.6 60ft's all day long.

One thing I learned is that the proper clutch can make a huge difference in getting 1st and 2nd gear to hook. If you are running an un-sprung 4 puck clutch that is like an on off switch then you have no control over shocking the tires and creating wheel spin. Once your wheels start spinning from initial shock they tend to keep spinning through the gear. Being able to slip the clutch a little bit helped me a lot.

gringotegra

I honestly don't know how spring rates come into play.

I can tell you that back when i was running 10.1's with a bit less power, i was cutting the same exact 60ft's as i am now. The only difference in suspension is now i have Full body coilovers with 850/950 rates.. The car rides a **** ton better, but i dont know if i can say in a straight line they "helped" me so to say. All i had before was a set of coilovers and some KYB shocks! It was also corner balanced.




Adding to above, i was on all stock mounts except for the rear Trans mount, i had the Energy Suspension insert. Don't think the mounts "helped me" at all.

BUT i do run both from Torque mounts still.

weedburner

After the engine is sorted out, 1st chassis adjustment for any manual trans car should be matching the clutch to the engine's output...basically dialing in the hit. Much smoother power application to the rest of the drivetrain (less broken parts), also makes it easier to hook up without resorting to extreme settings that would generally make the car less efficient.

rudebwoy

iTrader: (1)

I've had really horrible driving skills in the past, I had everything to run low 10's but my fastest 1/4 mile time was 11.9 I did this time in a 99 hatch with 626whp, same in a gutted hatch with 570whp on 24.5 slicks both un-prepared track, did this same time last year on 662whp del sol on 25.6 DOT tires I realized that I am dumping the power off the line extreme wheel spin, no traction. next year 800+ full interior coupe hoping for 9's but have to change my driving habit, and use boost by gear.

the moral of the story is driving habit play a major role too

joe b

I too have been fighting this issue . I made 738whp and over 500wtq and can only muster up 10.1@146mph . This is with horrible 1.70 60ft times . Power management is key and i don't have much of that at the moment . I have to say that boost by gear seems like the best correction for this issue . So next year i will be running boost by gear and maybe just maybe will become a member of the 9 second club .

weedburner

I'll expand on what i said earlier, 1st thing to do is adjust the hit of the clutch. If you don't, any adjustments you make to your chassis or boost profile will be made while dancing around the issue of having a torque spike on launch. Your tires will only hook so much with the weight you have on them. Weight transfer isn't your friend with FWD, so make the best of the situation at hand...don't let the clutch shock the tires loose on the hit!

How do you know if you have a torque spike on launch?..you can get that answer by just looking at your tach. Does your engine loose rpm when you launch? If it does, there's room for improvement.

In every car, there's a maximum amount of torque that can be applied to the transmission's input shaft in each gear before bad things happen. Beyond that limit, either some drivetrain component is going to break or the tires are going to spin. 1st gear is generally the most critical, as that's the gear where torque at the input shaft is multiplied the most. Your job as a racer is to maximize the quantity of power delivered to the tires during a run, without stepping across the line.

Let's say that line in 1st gear is 450ft/lbs to the input shaft. After the torque spike dissipates, total ft/lbs at the input shaft actually drops off, leaving room under the torque limit to add engine power. The goal should not be to simply avoid exceeding that 450ft/lb threshold during the first .5 second of the run while the engine is losing rpm, but that's how most racers actually go about tuning their car by excessively limiting boost in 1st gear or lowering launch rpm. The goal should be to maximize your acceleration rate by delivering a full 450ft/lbs to the input shaft AT EVERY POSSIBLE MOMENT, eliminating that initial torque spike allows bumping engine power right up to the edge of that 450ft/lb limit.

Beyond the launch, boost by gear is a great way to compensate for changes in torque multiplication vs torque applied to the tires. A little clutch slippage on the gear changes will minimize torque spikes during gear changes as well, only reason not to take advantage is if you are running out of clutch capacity.

crx2nr822

First off, great thread gringo because I think a lot of people don't consider these things when setting up a car and wonder why their high horsepower setup is running 12's when it should be running 10's or whatever.

I recently saw this video and thought that it sounds like a great idea but I've never really heard of any Honda guys using this type of product. I don't know if a lot of guys do use it and I'm just not in the loop, but any thoughts guys? I, in particular, liked the Magnus one because you could control the solenoid to work with one gear instead all the gears like the Clutchmaster piece.

crazes

if your two step and tire pressure is setup, you shouldn't have the type of wheel spin your showing. Play with the tire pressure and two step and go from there. I have seen around 6.5 to 7psi work well. Just then it becomes varying the two step until your numbers begin to get better.

weedburner

Power management can help get a car launched, but it's the last thing you should resort to. Relying on boost by gear during launch could leave a lot on the table.

Your car spins on launch now, but does your car spin when launching from a 1st gear full boost roll?
...if it doesn't, there's something to be gained from optimizing your clutch.
...if it does, there's something to be gained with taller gears (deliver less torque to the tires).

The basic difference between launching from a dig and launching from a roll, is that from a dig the rotating assy's inertia can come into play. If you are losing rpm on launch, that lost inertia exiting the rotating assy is creating a torque spike that WILL be seen at the tires. If that exiting inertia adds enough torque to break the tires loose, it's easy for the situation to deteriorate into something that's tough for the tires to recover from. The clutch is a key component that can completely eliminate a torque spike during launch. What happens if you limit boost in 1st gear to accommodate a torque spike? after that torque spike is gone and you are gaining rpm again, there will be a gap between the amount of power you are making and the amount of power that the track will take.

Same situation occurs during gear changes. The only difference is that some rpm loss must occur due to the ratio change, or the clutch simply would not live. The answer is to have some clutch slip on the gear changes as well, which reduces the intensity of those torque spikes. This, in turn, allows running more boost in that gear than you could without any clutch slip.

hardcore97

what didnt you like about the m&h bias ply? just curious as most of the reviews ive seen of them are positive. i have a a set i havent tried yet, just curious to hear what you experienced

joe b

The first two gears are usually up in smoke . 1st gear is 16 psi and second around 20 . slicks are 24.5 with 7 psi . The car is a hefty 2730 odd pounds of Integra . Not light but i think can go 9's . More seat time at this power level will help but i think boost by gear will do wonders if i can get the boost level down to the single digits in 1st .

nonvtecallmotor

The heavier the car the harder it is to make hook.

Our Prelude started out at over 3000lbs and we ran a 15" wheel with a 24.5" tire.. Went 1.61 at that weight on that tire.

The key is to make it hook when you release the clutch. If it spins at the hit it will NEVER recover.

IMO must people dont have the basics down. (Burnout, 2step, and launch boost)

joe b

It really doesn't spin all that bad when i let the clutch up . It goes ape **** when the turbo spools . I can usually limit my 2nd gear spin unless the track goes to ***** . I usually run consistent 1.7x 60ft times . Limiting power in that gear is going to help . I do agree that many people don't have the basics down .

nonvtecallmotor

IMO 1.7 60' are crap. If you are not leaving on enough power it will spin when the boost does come on..

16psi in 1st gear isnt a lot.

joe b

I agree ! Those 60ft times are killing me !

LightningTeg

Tires are important in this discussion. There is a difference between hooking on the street and hooking at the track. And whether or not you are on slicks or a radial.

You cant launch on radials bouncing off the 2 step aggressively because the car will wheel hop like a ****. As me how I know lol. It has to be more of a smooth onset like slipping the clutch out while holding steady RPM. At least thats how Gringo did it on his R888's IIRC