piston coatings questions
11-10-2004, 06:27 AM
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piston coatings questions
ok so im looking into some high CR CP pistons and i told them i want them ceramic coated and anti friction coated on the skirts, they told me its not a good idea, and it just rubs off and gets on / in with the rings . .
im thinking to my self HONDA put it on there itr and CTR pistons why the hell wont cp ??
i just want to know some info about these coatings like are they worth it and the like. and if there are any real draw-backs or is cp saying some crazy **** . .
thanks for the replies
im thinking to my self HONDA put it on there itr and CTR pistons why the hell wont cp ??
i just want to know some info about these coatings like are they worth it and the like. and if there are any real draw-backs or is cp saying some crazy **** . .
thanks for the replies
11-10-2004, 06:44 AM
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Re: piston coatings questions (hybrid_vtec)
yea ive been searching around more after i posted this and i read about about the coatings cracking and then having much worse problems with heat and detination . . .
11-10-2004, 07:19 AM
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Re: piston coatings questions (hybrid_vtec)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid_vtec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Contact Swan tech Coatings! Very good, used by many pros! </TD></TR></TABLE>
Got any contact information for them. I would like to have some pistions coated.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Got any contact information for them. I would like to have some pistions coated.
11-10-2004, 08:32 AM
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Re: piston coatings questions (jason bouchard)
The best coatings I've seen to date are from PolyDyn. They are located in TX. When I visited the shop, I saw several boxes going out to several 'pro' race teams.
http://www.polydyn.com
I also had them coat my crank to reduce the amount of oil that'll stick to it...
http://www.polydyn.com
I also had them coat my crank to reduce the amount of oil that'll stick to it...
11-10-2004, 10:11 AM
#7
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Re: piston coatings questions (jason bouchard)
Trending Topics
11-10-2004, 10:14 AM
#8
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Re: piston coatings questions (jdmcx)
http://www.swaintech.com/
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DavidR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The best coatings I've seen to date are from PolyDyn. They are located in TX. When I visited the shop, I saw several boxes going out to several 'pro' race teams.
http://www.polydyn.com
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Good company too
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DavidR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The best coatings I've seen to date are from PolyDyn. They are located in TX. When I visited the shop, I saw several boxes going out to several 'pro' race teams.
http://www.polydyn.com
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Good company too
11-10-2004, 10:19 AM
#9
Re: piston coatings questions (hybrid_vtec)
I am not a big fan of "coating" stuff for coating sake.
But if you guys want stuff coated by an expert, try Tbone.
Let's gets some sets of pistons together and send them to Tbone.
But if you guys want stuff coated by an expert, try Tbone.
Let's gets some sets of pistons together and send them to Tbone.
11-10-2004, 10:22 AM
#10
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Re: piston coatings questions (Rocket)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rocket »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am not a big fan of "coating" stuff for coating sake.
But if you guys want stuff coated by an expert, try Tbone.
Let's gets some sets of pistons together and send them to Tbone.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's a good thing to coat the Pistons, Valves, and combustion chambers if you are building a Nitrous motor! As far as all-motor goes, it is a waste of time and money!
But if you guys want stuff coated by an expert, try Tbone.
Let's gets some sets of pistons together and send them to Tbone.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's a good thing to coat the Pistons, Valves, and combustion chambers if you are building a Nitrous motor! As far as all-motor goes, it is a waste of time and money!
11-10-2004, 10:23 AM
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Re: piston coatings questions (hybrid_vtec)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid_vtec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It's a good thing to coat the Pistons, Valves, and combustion chambers if you are building a Nitrous motor! As far as all-motor goes, it is a waste of time and money!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Where is your proof it is a waste of time for all motor?
Reason I ask is, your statement is a pure fallacy.
The piston tops are coated to protect the top of the piston from heat. If you are running all motor, and on the leading edge of power, those chambers see quite a bit of heat. I'd rather coat the piston to be on the safe side.
The piston skirts are coated to protect the skirt as well as the cylinder wall from wear. This is more advantegous on higher RPM motors, as well as ones with longer strokes and shorter rods, but can aide in the reduction of friction on any motor!!
The crank is coated to keep oil from collecting on it too much. If you think Hondas do not have windage, you are mistaken. When the crank is rotating at several RPMs per minute, the oil gets 'stuck' to the crank, and the crank can grow by nearly 2x its normal size (with a thick layer of oil). With a crank scaper, or the coating, the oil is scraped off, or simply can't hang on as the surface is slippery. The oil is useless on the counterweights of the crank.
It's a good thing to coat the Pistons, Valves, and combustion chambers if you are building a Nitrous motor! As far as all-motor goes, it is a waste of time and money!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Where is your proof it is a waste of time for all motor?
Reason I ask is, your statement is a pure fallacy.
The piston tops are coated to protect the top of the piston from heat. If you are running all motor, and on the leading edge of power, those chambers see quite a bit of heat. I'd rather coat the piston to be on the safe side.
The piston skirts are coated to protect the skirt as well as the cylinder wall from wear. This is more advantegous on higher RPM motors, as well as ones with longer strokes and shorter rods, but can aide in the reduction of friction on any motor!!
The crank is coated to keep oil from collecting on it too much. If you think Hondas do not have windage, you are mistaken. When the crank is rotating at several RPMs per minute, the oil gets 'stuck' to the crank, and the crank can grow by nearly 2x its normal size (with a thick layer of oil). With a crank scaper, or the coating, the oil is scraped off, or simply can't hang on as the surface is slippery. The oil is useless on the counterweights of the crank.
11-10-2004, 10:38 AM
#12
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Re: piston coatings questions (DavidR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DavidR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Where is your proof it is a waste of time for all motor?
Reason I ask is, your statement is a pure fallacy.
The piston tops are coated to protect the top of the piston from heat. If you are running all motor, and on the leading edge of power, those chambers see quite a bit of heat. I'd rather coat the piston to be on the safe side.
The piston skirts are coated to protect the skirt as well as the cylinder wall from wear. This is more advantegous on higher RPM motors, as well as ones with longer strokes and shorter rods, but can aide in the reduction of friction on any motor!! </TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats just my opinion! Most ppl drive their cars everyday and it isnt a good idea to put excessive miles on pistons with this coating b/c yes there have been incidences that the coating has come off before! Im not saying it is a bad idea to use on an allmotor car, but its not a good idea to put this on a daily driven car!
*THIS JUST MY OPINION, BASED OFF MY EXPERIENCES! INTERPRET HOW YOU YOU LIKE*
Where is your proof it is a waste of time for all motor?
Reason I ask is, your statement is a pure fallacy.
The piston tops are coated to protect the top of the piston from heat. If you are running all motor, and on the leading edge of power, those chambers see quite a bit of heat. I'd rather coat the piston to be on the safe side.
The piston skirts are coated to protect the skirt as well as the cylinder wall from wear. This is more advantegous on higher RPM motors, as well as ones with longer strokes and shorter rods, but can aide in the reduction of friction on any motor!! </TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats just my opinion! Most ppl drive their cars everyday and it isnt a good idea to put excessive miles on pistons with this coating b/c yes there have been incidences that the coating has come off before! Im not saying it is a bad idea to use on an allmotor car, but its not a good idea to put this on a daily driven car!
*THIS JUST MY OPINION, BASED OFF MY EXPERIENCES! INTERPRET HOW YOU YOU LIKE*
11-10-2004, 09:47 PM
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Re: piston coatings questions (743power)
No, I don't think they can get them that thin! You should have you pistons coated, THEN bore/hone the cylinders!
I would at least coat the skirts of the pistons, that can do NO harm what-so-ever! And the coatings most places use are WAY better than the cheap coatings found on 'stock' pistons (yes, even the Honda coating which is SUPER thin and doesn't stick well).
I would at least coat the skirts of the pistons, that can do NO harm what-so-ever! And the coatings most places use are WAY better than the cheap coatings found on 'stock' pistons (yes, even the Honda coating which is SUPER thin and doesn't stick well).
11-10-2004, 10:25 PM
#15
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Re: piston coatings questions (DavidR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DavidR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No, I don't think they can get them that thin! You should have you pistons coated, THEN bore/hone the cylinders!
I would at least coat the skirts of the pistons, that can do NO harm what-so-ever! And the coatings most places use are WAY better than the cheap coatings found on 'stock' pistons (yes, even the Honda coating which is SUPER thin and doesn't stick well).
</TD></TR></TABLE>
ya then the coating on the skirts rubs off from moving up and down and throws your piston to wall clearance off.
I would at least coat the skirts of the pistons, that can do NO harm what-so-ever! And the coatings most places use are WAY better than the cheap coatings found on 'stock' pistons (yes, even the Honda coating which is SUPER thin and doesn't stick well).
</TD></TR></TABLE>
ya then the coating on the skirts rubs off from moving up and down and throws your piston to wall clearance off.
11-10-2004, 10:57 PM
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Re: piston coatings questions (OnePointSicks)
im wondering how long these expensive coatings last. It would be a shame if they last a couple hundred miles.
Race engines are constantly being rebuilt.
Race engines are constantly being rebuilt.
11-11-2004, 01:45 PM
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Re: piston coatings questions (jason bouchard)
Time to clear some stuff up..
#1 theres no harm in coating an allmotor piston in a daily driven enviroment.
Ever look at an ITR piston guys.
#2 for all you that are going to say it wears off.
IT"S supposed too on the skirts, the proper way to run these coatings is to actually buff it down to the point on non visibilty, Coatings facilitys wont do this because the customer wont think the coating was done if they cant see it. After a few hundred miles most Moly coatings will visually wear off a piston and you wont see it anymore. The coating is bonded with the metal so even if you cant see it, it's still their doing its job.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DavidR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No, I don't think they can get them that thin! You should have you pistons coated, THEN bore/hone the cylinders!
I would at least coat the skirts of the pistons, that can do NO harm what-so-ever! And the coatings most places use are WAY better than the cheap coatings found on 'stock' pistons (yes, even the Honda coating which is SUPER thin and doesn't stick well).
</TD></TR></TABLE>
That statment is incorrect . Because the coating is only ..001-.0015 when applied and burnishes down, no tolerance change is needed.
Also if you have the tops thermal coated you will less thermal expansion of the piston and you can run closer piston to wall clearance. If you honed bigger and the piston expands less and the coating buffs down, your piston to wall just got alot larger than needed.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 743power »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Can you get the coating on the skirts like .0001" or less thick? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats about where it ends up after it burnishes, but we cant apply it that thin.. so no not initially.<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid_vtec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Thats just my opinion! Most ppl drive their cars everyday and it isnt a good idea to put excessive miles on pistons with this coating b/c yes there have been incidences that the coating has come off before! Im not saying it is a bad idea to use on an allmotor car, but its not a good idea to put this on a daily driven car!
*THIS JUST MY OPINION, BASED OFF MY EXPERIENCES! INTERPRET HOW YOU YOU LIKE*</TD></TR></TABLE>
What negative affect would there be if the so called coatings came off in a daily driven car?
#1 theres no harm in coating an allmotor piston in a daily driven enviroment.
Ever look at an ITR piston guys.
#2 for all you that are going to say it wears off.
IT"S supposed too on the skirts, the proper way to run these coatings is to actually buff it down to the point on non visibilty, Coatings facilitys wont do this because the customer wont think the coating was done if they cant see it. After a few hundred miles most Moly coatings will visually wear off a piston and you wont see it anymore. The coating is bonded with the metal so even if you cant see it, it's still their doing its job.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DavidR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No, I don't think they can get them that thin! You should have you pistons coated, THEN bore/hone the cylinders!
I would at least coat the skirts of the pistons, that can do NO harm what-so-ever! And the coatings most places use are WAY better than the cheap coatings found on 'stock' pistons (yes, even the Honda coating which is SUPER thin and doesn't stick well).
</TD></TR></TABLE>
That statment is incorrect . Because the coating is only ..001-.0015 when applied and burnishes down, no tolerance change is needed.
Also if you have the tops thermal coated you will less thermal expansion of the piston and you can run closer piston to wall clearance. If you honed bigger and the piston expands less and the coating buffs down, your piston to wall just got alot larger than needed.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 743power »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Can you get the coating on the skirts like .0001" or less thick? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats about where it ends up after it burnishes, but we cant apply it that thin.. so no not initially.<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid_vtec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Thats just my opinion! Most ppl drive their cars everyday and it isnt a good idea to put excessive miles on pistons with this coating b/c yes there have been incidences that the coating has come off before! Im not saying it is a bad idea to use on an allmotor car, but its not a good idea to put this on a daily driven car!
*THIS JUST MY OPINION, BASED OFF MY EXPERIENCES! INTERPRET HOW YOU YOU LIKE*</TD></TR></TABLE>
What negative affect would there be if the so called coatings came off in a daily driven car?
11-11-2004, 01:48 PM
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Re: piston coatings questions (Tbone)
I just got an IM saying that the coating could crack a ring if it came off..NO MOLY coating is going crack any steel part people. Most coatings are Waterbased beleive it or not.
Heres the most recent set I did as well as some other stuff.
Mine in my current motor 1 year strong with over 250 dyno pulls 8000 miles and 3 track days.
Heres some other stuff.
http://www.we-todd-did-racing....x.jpg
http://www.we-todd-did-racing....D.jpg
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.....wtdr
Modified by Tbone at 6:02 PM 11/11/2004
Heres the most recent set I did as well as some other stuff.
Mine in my current motor 1 year strong with over 250 dyno pulls 8000 miles and 3 track days.
Heres some other stuff.
http://www.we-todd-did-racing....x.jpg
http://www.we-todd-did-racing....D.jpg
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.....wtdr
Modified by Tbone at 6:02 PM 11/11/2004
11-11-2004, 03:13 PM
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Re: piston coatings questions (91sihatch)
The manifold coating reflects heat. The header coating holds it in and also slows down the rusting process.. I have my header wrapped as well as coated and you can grab onto my primaries when the car is running.. Dont wrap unless you plan on recoating often, it holds in moisture.
11-11-2004, 04:30 PM
#22
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Re: piston coatings questions (Tbone)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tbone »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What negative affect would there be if the so called coatings came off in a daily driven car?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I read your post and you make a good point, however I commenting on the Piston tops and combustion chambers being coated, not the piston skirts! However I did run into a problem once when one of my buddies had his pistons, combustion chambers and valves coated b/c he was spraying N2O! When we changed his header we found what looked like paint chips/flakes in the catalytic convertor! Now I could be wrong because of what you said about it buffing off, but how would it buff off the pistons tops and valves? Anyway we tore the head off and the coating seemed to no be there on the piston in cylinder # 2! while you could definitely tell the difference between the #2 and the rest of the pistons!
Also if I am right and the coating did come off:
1. Could it have been due to a possiblity to a flaw in the process that piston went through when it was coated?
2. B/C of excessive use of the engine from driving it everyday?
3. Could that coating eventually clog up the catalytic converter?(If I was correct and the flakes/chips were the coating)
Im not saying Im right or wrong, however the avg person drives their car everyday to and from work, store, etc. and most ppl dont do bottom end work or build extreme enough to use this coating IMO! It would be beneficial, however I would think more so on a FI engine or a sprayed motor; or even a motor in the 12.0:1 + range on compression, but not 10.5:1 to 11.0:1! But like I said I could be wrong, and if I am please explain! Thanx!
Modified by hybrid_vtec at 7:49 PM 11/11/2004
What negative affect would there be if the so called coatings came off in a daily driven car?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I read your post and you make a good point, however I commenting on the Piston tops and combustion chambers being coated, not the piston skirts! However I did run into a problem once when one of my buddies had his pistons, combustion chambers and valves coated b/c he was spraying N2O! When we changed his header we found what looked like paint chips/flakes in the catalytic convertor! Now I could be wrong because of what you said about it buffing off, but how would it buff off the pistons tops and valves? Anyway we tore the head off and the coating seemed to no be there on the piston in cylinder # 2! while you could definitely tell the difference between the #2 and the rest of the pistons!
Also if I am right and the coating did come off:
1. Could it have been due to a possiblity to a flaw in the process that piston went through when it was coated?
2. B/C of excessive use of the engine from driving it everyday?
3. Could that coating eventually clog up the catalytic converter?(If I was correct and the flakes/chips were the coating)
Im not saying Im right or wrong, however the avg person drives their car everyday to and from work, store, etc. and most ppl dont do bottom end work or build extreme enough to use this coating IMO! It would be beneficial, however I would think more so on a FI engine or a sprayed motor; or even a motor in the 12.0:1 + range on compression, but not 10.5:1 to 11.0:1! But like I said I could be wrong, and if I am please explain! Thanx!
Modified by hybrid_vtec at 7:49 PM 11/11/2004
11-11-2004, 05:27 PM
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Re: (MugenRacerX)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MugenRacerX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I belive this falls in the catagory of stepping over the dollars to pick up the pennys. If im wrong plz correct me.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I beleive you were corrected before you posted...
Less thermal expansion= no scrubbed walls= better ring seal=HP=longevity
Engine runs cooler=longer=less wear= longevity
Combustion heat is distbibuted evenly arcoss the tops of the pistons to help eliminate HOT spots
Ability to run closer tolerances because of less thermal expansion=longevity
Ability to run more timming without detonation=more low end tq and hp
I beleive you were corrected before you posted...
Less thermal expansion= no scrubbed walls= better ring seal=HP=longevity
Engine runs cooler=longer=less wear= longevity
Combustion heat is distbibuted evenly arcoss the tops of the pistons to help eliminate HOT spots
Ability to run closer tolerances because of less thermal expansion=longevity
Ability to run more timming without detonation=more low end tq and hp
11-11-2004, 06:49 PM
#25
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Re: (Tbone)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tbone »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I beleive you were corrected before you posted...
Less thermal expansion= no scrubbed walls= better ring seal=HP=longevity
Engine runs cooler=longer=less wear= longevity
Combustion heat is distbibuted evenly arcoss the tops of the pistons to help eliminate HOT spots
Ability to run closer tolerances because of less thermal expansion=longevity
Ability to run more timming without detonation=more low end tq and hp</TD></TR></TABLE>
Forgot about that! Good point!
What about my situation? Did you read my post? Any comments?
I beleive you were corrected before you posted...
Less thermal expansion= no scrubbed walls= better ring seal=HP=longevity
Engine runs cooler=longer=less wear= longevity
Combustion heat is distbibuted evenly arcoss the tops of the pistons to help eliminate HOT spots
Ability to run closer tolerances because of less thermal expansion=longevity
Ability to run more timming without detonation=more low end tq and hp</TD></TR></TABLE>
Forgot about that! Good point!
What about my situation? Did you read my post? Any comments?