SSBP-GSR

I built this engine for auto x and its been running great for two seasons with this build on this tune for the graph shown. I was never disappointed by the numbers especially here in Denver a mile high but have been wanting more torque. When i first built it, i tuned it with a dented big tube tri y header. the one they say is for engines over 2 liters etc. I always thought swapping a normal tube header would improve the numbers all around. So i bought a toda rep and installed it and just fired it up open header even to just heat the header up and get it golden and I noticed on my af gauge it was running a little richer than usual. This means its flowing less and has more gas in the mix right? I swapped to this header because I thought it might give me more torque than the (imo) overly sized big tube tri Y. I know it doesnt mean anything before I get it tuned but I guess just wondering what yall think I should do?

Engine-
b18c
velocity stack
3 inch intake
larger(i forget size) throttle body
port matched blox intake manifold
rdx injectors
aem high flow fuel rail w/ gauge
larger fuel pump walbro forget size
Supertech flat faced race valves intake and exhaust
supertech titanium retainers
supertech turbo dual valve springs
GSC power divison Stage 2 camshafts
82mm PR3 b16a pistons - IIRC ~ 11.4:1 compression ratio
manley rods
acl race bearings
ported high flow race oil pump
fluid dampner
Big tube tri y for dyno
new toda rep installed
3 inch dump pipe
4.9 final drive

<img src="http://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-tech.com-vbulletin/580x435/80-cci07112014_dd1c3fcf71ff4d6a3cb9df7b93789cd71af991 f0.jpg"></img>

The original tuner never once touched my fuel pressure, cam gear settings (still at 0,0) or could wrangle in my idle very well. I asked him about all this and got bs answers. Im getting a retune by a different tuner. I guess best answer is to take both headers into tuner and see what he can do.


OK i went to a new tuner and now im pretty happy with the setup. We fixed the idle, and made more power IMO.
<img src ="http://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-tech.com-vbulletin/2000x2000/80-ccf03102016_8e9fcc25dd6e09801afd14b56e631b235f4fb3 6f.jpg"></img>
Blue is the baseline, and red is where we ended up. We adjusted the cam gears,but for some reason it was only gaining torque and losing little bits of HP, so we ended up where we are at with +3Ex, +1 intake. Fuel pressure stayed the same. Just swapped from tri y to toda rep. I wish i would have dynoed the tri y before i swapped to the toda rep, but with the tri y tune and toda rep installed, it put down 179 whp on this dyno ( a different one). I cant help but wonder what the tri y would have done in this dyno(old setup dyno is above at 193) ,but it appears this dyno reads lower than the first one i was on as i cant see losing 14 hp from swapping header on the original tune. That being said, we gained 20+ hp and 10 + tq from basically 7K rpm onward from my baseline pull which im freakin stoked about. Also the lower end has many gains which overall makes it feel like a different car! We couldnt get that little midrange dip smoothed out more which is frustrating...any ideas? Comments welcome. Thanks!! also keep in mind here in denver colorado we always dyno low because we have no oxygen lol


Thanks

PyroProblem

I'd try hooking up your exhaust again and seeing if the a/f ratios change. Im assuming you have an exhaust system.
No other changes (outside temperature for example causing your IAT to change and possibly causing your fuel trims to change)?

DC-2uned

If you're asking what to change on that list for more torque:
-See you said "b18c", if you have the 87 crank, go 89 from an LS
-Add about a point of compression so you're in the 12.5-13:1 range
-Cams are pretty mild, similar to a Tuner 2, go Pro 2 or similar
-Think about upgrading intake manifold to something like SK2's Ultra
-Figure out what TB you have and size, so we're sure that's not bottlenecking you

SSBP-GSR

I run a two foot, three inch stainless pipe to a turndown muffler. IF anything wouldnt an exhaust cause more restriction and richer #'s? The biggest change from the tune to now is I just put a new smaller header on.



If you're asking what to change on that list for more torque:

-See you said "b18c", if you have the 87 crank, go 89 from an LS- not gonna take it down to the crank until it needs rebuilt again

-Add about a point of compression so you're in the 12.5-13:1 range- didnt build this high originally because of fuel concerns

-Cams are pretty mild, similar to a Tuner 2, go Pro 2 or similar- I disagree- here are the specs, not mild -

GSC POWER DIVISION N2
High lobe (IN/EX)
296/288 Duration
266/258@1mm Duration
12mm/11.5mm Peak valve lift
102/104 Center line

SKUNK 2 Pro 2
intake Duration / Lift: 260° / 12.65mm
Exhaust Duration / Lift: 272° / 11.90mm

unless im crazy these cams are pretty aggressive?

-Think about upgrading intake manifold to something like SK2's Ultra- have been thinking about that- necessary you think? Ive seen my manifold support more power than I have.


-Figure out what TB you have and size, so we're sure that's not bottlenecking you - doubt its a bottleneck as its much larger than stock and port matched.

I appreciate yalls opinions and I am leaning towards a new intake manifold as well but not really sure a larger one will help. Im gonna take this to the tuner and see what he says as well... Thanks!

PyroProblem

Ive heard of people both gaining and losing power with an exhaust on.
On one hand, the extra exhaust piping length can aid in exhaust evacuation by exhaust scavenging where exhaust pulses can be timed and spaced just right that actually help cylinder filling during the intake stroke.
On the other hand, the extra exhaust piping could be a restriction and not hinder flow on the exhaust, which will not help get the exhaust out and the intake charge in.
Every engine is different and many factors can influence it (cam timing, header size, etc) and also at different rpms, it may be more or less affected.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

No replacement for displacement when it comes to finding additional lower end torque. Unless its forced induction. Considering your type of racing and your location. Supercharging seems to be a more viable option than anything else, especially since you have no desire to tear the engine down, and a camshaft change from a GSC N2 to a Skunk2 Tuner 2 won't change your torque level. if anything, you LOSE lower end torque changing to that camshaft due to the smaller primary vs. the GSC N2.

(And yes, superchargers are reliable to use). It just might put you in a different class in autoX you might not want to be in.

Going to the LS crank adds about 60ft/lbs of torque, but that's the overall powerband, not in the lower rpm. You have to change bore AND stroke to see significant changes.

So, you don't leave a lot of choice, based upon your criteria

DC-2uned

Look at the GSC duration numbers for 1mm, that's the numbers you are showing for the Pro2s. So the Pros are slightly more aggressive than the GSC, at least on the exhaust side. Plus look at the lift differences. I also THINK the Pro primaries are larger giving you more power pre-vtec.
I would never replace what you have with Tuner2 but would consider the Pro2s as I said. Really your best bet would be to talk to DDTech and see what he recommends. If he doesn't have a shelf cam to suit your build, you can get a custom grind for like $100 more.

As far as compression I ran 12.2:1 with pump 93 all day, no issues. I also have a few friends who did CTR piston builds in the 12.8-13:1 range, and they had to be careful with the timing but still run 93.

Your intake manifold is capable of supporting more than you're making but that doesn't mean that there isn't better out there.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

^^ I can co-sign to that. Pro2 vs. Tuner2 if deciding for high power levels. Torque.. well, where he needs it in autoX, neither one may be helpful.

SSBP-GSR

OK that makes sense i wasnt anticipating that. I always thought open header = more power. Im running a short 3 inch exhaust with a turn down muffler. It will be installed when tuning. Hopefully its sufficient. Ive seen different length intakes move power band, does exhaust do the same?

SSBP-GSR

I always wanted to supercharge. I was looking at the latest kits from kraftwerks and it seemed to me its all the fuss of turbo but not as good, id like to stay NA. I remember i went with the GSC mainly because of their larger non vtec lobes in hope of some torque. Would changing the cam gear settings off of 0,0 gain me power and torque on a dyno? Im almost certain it would. Im super bummer my first tuner didnt touch those settings. I didnt know swapping the crank is so beneficial. is there more involved getting a ls crank into a gsr block? Seems like it would cause clearance issues?

Its looking like from here im gonna retune, on the TODA header, with the shorrty exhaust, and everthing else the same. have him address the cam gears and get the cams dialed in more and see how it does. Its not bad now with the 4.9 final drive i spend a lot of time at redline

SSBP-GSR

I would really like to use these camshafts i think they are capable of much more power than im putting down. Unfortunately I built this as my first build and am already thirsty for more power. I was looking at the skunk2 ultra series intake manifold and it says its for "3.5 liter= High Horsepower N/A and Forced Induction applications up to 600hp" do you think i would benefit from this manifold over a blox type r copy basically? Like worth the extra 333 dollars over my existing one? ***apparently there are two new manifolds from skunk, an ultra street and ultra race. The street is 333, but the race is 1k with a throttle body. Would my setup merit such an intake? Either one?

Thanks!!

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Actually, No.. If you're autoXing (not road racing or circuit racing), you won't benefit from these things. Your powerband in the AutoX needs to be broad, and your torque level needs to be very high, as most of the time you're not over 5000-6000rpms for any length of time to be of any use with such an aggressive camshaft, intake manifold, or anything of the like. These tools are meant for much higher rpm and powerband levels that you'll be able to use on any parking lot..

AutoX isn't about POWER. AutoX is about torqueband and broad powerband

PyroProblem

A nicely built and cammed b20 non vtec might be a good setup to consider.
As Shodan stated, theres no replacement for displacement NA and upgrading all those parts are gonna most likely give you top end power at the sacrifice of midrange/lower rpms.
It gets to a point where $750 worth of modding the 1.8 liter isn't worth it anymore, and that $750 could go towards a healthy 2 liter bottom end which means more power where your wanting it.

SSBP-GSR

Ok thanks for all yalls opinions. I realize the b18c makes all its power up top, and i try and keep the revs high with a 4.9 fd and aftermarket gears. As soon as i was done building, i knew i should have gone with a b20 block bored to like 84mm with a larger crank. Oh well lesson learned. I was thinking manifolds and such might add power, but not where i need it at least and not worth it for the cash.

Just a few more questions then:

1. Ive seen formulas that help determine optimum manifold runner length, plenum size etc based off of other specs. Can anyone advise?

2. I have a balanced block, forged internals, and supertech turbo valvesprings. My tuner only tuned it to 8400 and it looks like it wants to make more power. Would it be ok to take it to 9400 rpm as long as its making power? probably about once a lap i hit the rev limiter, like at the finish. This would help me in two ways, making more power and extending my usable power band.

3. If my new tuner is able to make more power, adjust the cam gears, fuel, and get it idleing better, would i be out of line asking my old tuner for my 500 dollars back? he left me unsatisfied and with lame answers as to why these things werent done.

Ill keep yall updated as to how my new tune goes...

Thanks!!

PyroProblem

My opinion is that intake length tuning has a much more profound effect on power than exhaust tuning does. Although there is some power to be found with different length primaries and diameters in the header. I think that on most NA cars, the exhaust pulses have lost all there energy and become wasted space shortly after the collector. After the collector (or in about that area), the exhaust pulses have slowed enough and are no longer assisting the engine in making HP. They now have to be pushed out (wasted energy), by the exhaust pulses that fired after it. I picture a slinky effect of exhaust gasses pushing and pulling each other along until at a specific rpm and exhaust flow rate, they all move together in unison at high speed.

DC-2uned

I don't know if the street is worth $333 over your current Mani, but it's looking like one of the few things you are willing to upgrade. Just about everything we've mentioned to help increase torque, you don't want to do because it consists of changing internals. Like the crank, pistons, cams, etc which are the main places to make a changes. I understand why you wouldn't want to tear apart and rebuild/replace things but that is where these increases would be found.
Maybe you'd be better off building at least a 2nd block to try out, then you'd have a backup in case one blows racing. A cool, cheap block to build would be:
1-Buy a B20($3-400) and disassemble it while cleaning and inspecting everything
2-Have it bored/honed for 84 (or 84.5mm if necessary)
3-Grab ARP hardware for the stock rods(or just grab eagles with ARP's for $300)
4-Get some ITR spec pistons in 84 or 84.5mm size with rings for $300 from RS machine on eBay(you can get 12.5:1 coated supertechs for $450-500 on eBay through IPG parts all day if you want forged )
5-Grab some ARP headstuds
6-Get the basic maintenance parts for replacement like water pump, oil pump, headgasket, oil pan gasket, etc
7-Assemble everything, double checking clearances and and torques(and you'll have a built B20 block for

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

No. because by way of a contract he already performed the service. If you weren't satisfied at the time of completion or during the tune, you should have brought those issues up at that time before leaving. But if you remained quiet, and didn't see any issues then, you can't go back and ask for the money.

If "satisfaction" was based upon whether or not you reached your power goal as a specific dyno number, then you REALLY have nothing to stand on, as power numbers based upon tuning isn't a condition of payment for services. If it were, NO dyno tuner would be in business, and everyone would be in line to get money.

If you were unhappy for other reasons, then it's on your head to either find someone else, or start learning how to tune on your own.

ChrisCoupe1

If your looking for some good Denver area tuners then definitely you should look up Colorado Race Fab....I think they mainly specialize in boosted Honda's but I really don't hear anyone come more highly recommend then they do.

93egSLEEPER

He can check out my build thread for ideas as well. I did a "budget" build, but didn't cut corners on it. Worked out pretty well for me. I know my car would be a kick in the *** to drive auto-x. So much mid and pulls coming out of the corners available.

SSBP-GSR

Ill hafta check my phone but I think thats where my autox friend told me to go, and I was planning on it.


I guess I should rephrase that. I took my car in to be tuned and gave him the clearance specs for my valves based on cam gear settings. I took the time to make the chart of safe cam gear settings when assembling my head and engine, and gave it to him. When i came to pick up the car i was happy to have it running, but questioned a few of the things he did. Mainly not moving the cam gears at all and having it idle at around 1,600 + rpm. I mentioned these things to him, and his responses seemed to me like bullshit but what am i supposed to do just say to this guys face you are lying and dont know how to tune well? I mean cmon. I was happy he got it running and it put down good numbers, but still not 100% what i paid for i feel like. His answers were plausible as to why. he said my "cams were so large and we are at such an altitude" basically that it would never idle well which i disagree with but until i get another tuner to fix i cant prove him wrong. Same deal with the cam gears- "they are good at 0,0" , well ive read a lot that says otherwise but youre the guy who owns a freakin dyno! I guess i wont ask for my money back but if i do manage to get the idle corrected and moving the cam gears make substantial power i will go back and discuss his "reasons" for not doing these things as requested on the first tune just to see what he says. I wish i knew how to tune, im probably being lazy and overly scared of blowing my motor. I have a wideband and a hondata and a laptop no excuse really.

SSBP-GSR

I dont wanna tear this down with the season coming up soon and i built it on the desk in my bedroom as well. Your idea sounds like a good one, satisfying my urge to build and wrench, while keeping a functional engine in the race car, and upgrading at the same time.

SSBP-GSR

Bump- check out the original post i got retuned

93egSLEEPER

Different tuner or what did u change?

SSBP-GSR

different tuner and swapped headers from tri y to toda rep. The blue line is a baseline after i swapped headers but before tuning.