unified112

Alright, I just assembled an lsvtec motor.. '94 b18b bottom end with a '99 B16 head, GSR water pump, Type-R oil pump, Skunk2 Pro-Series adjustable cam gears. I just installed the timing belt and got everything aligned.. And I remember reading that LSVtecs are always going to be off half of a tooth due to the deck-height difference, etc etc etc.

I lined up the cam gears, got the block to TDC and installed the belt. Spun the engine about 5-6 revolutions, and everything lined up correctly, except the cam-gears are off half a tooth. Now, as I said.. I do have adjustable cam gears.. So, how would I go about adjusting it to make everything proper? I

want to do my valve adjustment, but am not sure how to go about it. I can line up the cam-gears, but the block wont be at exact TDC. Im not sure if I just line up the cam gear marks in the middle, then loosen the adjustment bolts, and turn the block that half-tooth to TDC, or what. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks HondaTech members!

00b18b

I'm in the same process as you setting up the timing belt. Just wondering did your pro series cam gears line up exactly with the dots pointing at 12 o'clock and the white marks at 3 and 9 o'clock?

unified112

When you have the white marks pointing at 3 and 9 o'clock, the dots were more at about 11:30. It had me curious for a while, but after looking in the service manual, it looks to me as if they arent supposed to point EXACTLY at 12 o'clock.



Now, I couldnt tell if it was just the angle of the engine since it was on an engine stand, or what.. But no, when the white-marks were lined up, the dots weren't at True 12 o'clock.

*edit*
Here's exactly how mine are positioned right now. As I said, the white marks are off by about half a tooth, and the dots aren't at true 12 o'clock. And if you turn the cams more, so that the white marks are dead on, the dots are even more off of the 12 o'clock position.



Modified by unified112 at 8:25 PM 5/10/2008

00b18b

yeah thats exactly how mine look also once the white line are dead even (horizontal) the intake gear is at 11:30.

I'm thinking it's something to do with the tension of the belt. Possibly using two 14mm wrenches, turning the exhaust gear counter clockwise and the intake gear clockwise. This way its stretches the slack in between the gears.

how does your crank gear look?


Modified by 00b18b at 11:45 PM 5/10/2008

Combustion Contraption

Dont worry about the dots pointing perfectly upward, that really doesnt matter. The "hash marks" on the gears lining up is what is important.

unified112

Ok.. Then my question is.. How do I get the hash marks to line up perfectly, while keeping the bottom end Dead-On Top-Dead-Center?

Combustion Contraption

Patience, diligence and a willingness to learn. Or experience.

unified112

... ¿Que?

I'm definitely patient and willing to learn.. Though I'm NOT willing to 'experience' my engine detonating due to faulty timing. Which is why I'm attempting to reach out to people who have built lsvtecs before and know how to adjust the gears/block so that they properly line up.

Combustion Contraption

Some things are very difficult to explain through words on the internet. If you have some basic mechanical skills, keep trying, maybe using different methods until you can get them to line up. Its not a manufacturing defect, its not the fact that its a LS/Vtec, its the fact that you havent figured out how to finesse them into lining up perfectly yet. Not trying to be an *******, but it will be quite difficult for someone to come on here and give you a magic answer as to how to do it. Sometimes , when things like belt tension and moving parts are involved, it gets a bit tricky. Same thing as trying to explain how to port to people over the internet. It doesnt work.

unified112

So it actually will line up correctly without adjusting the cam gears? I could have sworn in one of the builds I read that no matter what (When using oem vtec cam gears) that your timing will be off half-a-tooth due to the differences in head/block height and using a vtec timing belt.

But if you think everything should line up, i'll definitely give it a few more goes tomorrow and see what I can do. Thanks for the input if you are indeed correct.

Combustion Contraption

Ive built enough engines to know that it will line up fine if you know what youre doing.

unified112

Sweet.. One other question then. Do you recommend using the oem sequence for putting on the timing belt? Crank-gear, tensioner, water pump, intake cam then exhaust cam? Or starting on the cam gears, then water pump then tensioner then crank gear? I've heard of both ways, which do you prefer?

Thrizzle

Has your head been resurfaced at all? that would be a contribution to it being slightly off.

But like CC said.. if you know what you're doing, you'll know how to get them to line up and dealing w/ belt tension and all that jazz.

Coat hanger trick, exh cam trick.. every has their own method that you learn w/ experience.

unified112

I bought the head from a local machine shop, and i could tell it had been resurfaced, though I wasn't told that it was milled or anything so I thought all would be well.

After spending about 2 hours today, with a buddy who has rebuilt quite a few B18b's and some toyota engines (He mainly does domestics), neither of us could get it dead-on. I'm about fed up, to say the least.

Combustion Contraption

Some mechanics use a tool that locks the camshafts in place so they cannot move. Perhaps you should pick one up and give it a shot.

PyroProblem

Get yourself a dial indicator setup to measure TRUE TDC.
Then line your cams up with the horizontal marks.Not the Vertical ones. Put your belt on and tension. Rotate slowly a few times reworking the tensioner to get all the belt slack out.
You have just set your BASIC timing...
Now its time to degree the cams and PRECISELY time the cams to the crank...

Since milling heads,decking blocks,aftermarket headgaskets,cams,and cam gears are all just a little bit different engine to engine, I doubt youll ever have an engine that times up perfectly unless its 100% stock...
Search on how to "degree your cams" and you should be good to go!

92integraVTECgsr

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Combustion Contraption &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Some things are very difficult to explain through words on the internet. If you have some basic mechanical skills, keep trying, maybe using different methods until you can get them to line up. Its not a manufacturing defect, its not the fact that its a LS/Vtec, its the fact that you havent figured out how to finesse them into lining up perfectly yet. Not trying to be an *******, but it will be quite difficult for someone to come on here and give you a magic answer as to how to do it. Sometimes , when things like belt tension and moving parts are involved, it gets a bit tricky. Same thing as trying to explain how to port to people over the internet. It doesnt work.</TD></TR></TABLE>


Exactly. It will line up. Take your time and follow the HONDA specific way to install the timing belt. The bottom gear will try to keep moving, but you have to stop it. You might need a 2nd person to keep an eye on it. It will go on.

Hybrid96EK

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by unified112 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I bought the head from a local machine shop, and i could tell it had been resurfaced, though I wasn't told that it was milled or anything so I thought all would be well.

After spending about 2 hours today, with a buddy who has rebuilt quite a few B18b's and some toyota engines (He mainly does domestics), neither of us could get it dead-on. I'm about fed up, to say the least.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If the block has been decked and the head milled then they will NEVER LINE UP DEAD ON no matter how "jedi like" CC might want you to think you need to be.

unified112

The crank gear moving with the slight pressure it takes to slide a timing belt over it? Unlikely. Its a freshly rebuild motor, and tight clearances. It takes a bit more force than sliding a belt over the crank-gear to get the bottom end to turn. Same with the cam-gears.

As far as the block, it has been rebuilt once before, but wasn't decked. And the machine shop I took the block to, said there was 'no measurable amount of warp-age' so the deck/block should be stock. Though the head had been resurfaced.

Thanks PyroProblem and Hybrid96EK for the more specific information. And thanks to all who replied.. But I think I'm just going to pick up a Cam-Degree Kit and line everything up dead-on-***** instead of believing in the cam/crank marks.

93-lsvtec-eh2

depending on the cams you have they should have a shallow hole in them. and when lined up correctly you can place a allen wrech or something around the same size in the hole in the top of the cam rails to hold them in place. but some cams do not have these

Teamdiesel

my cam gears look the exact same, beign off by half a tooth. My block has been decked .007 though.

unified112

They're stock '96 GSR cams.. I believe I know what you're talkin about. I saw a few holes in the cam rail/plates and I think they line up with holes in the camshaft. I have another buddy coming over tomorrow who just timed his B17, so hopefully he can help me out. But if not, that's three people who are unable to get my motor to line up perfectly. I highly doubt three people are doing it wrong. So, worst case scenario, I'm just getting the degree-kit and making SURE they're all aligned. Good lookin out, 93-lsvtec-eh2.

92integraVTECgsr

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by unified112 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The crank gear moving with the slight pressure it takes to slide a timing belt over it? Unlikely. Its a freshly rebuild motor, and tight clearances. It takes a bit more force than sliding a belt over the crank-gear to get the bottom end to turn. Same with the cam-gears.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You'd be very surprised. I've done numerous timing belts and yes, if you watch carefully and follow HONDA's method to put the belt on (crank, tensioner, water pump intake cam, exhaust cam) by the time you get to the cams, you will be able to move the crank. Trust me. I've seen it. It has happened to me and happens to everyone.

Like stated earlier, you can buy a tool that locks the camshafts that way you only have to worry about the crank pulley moving, but either way, the cams have to be lined up and the crank has to line up after the belt is on. If it does not, then something moved, if it wasn't the cams, then I promise you, it was the crank.

pootie.teng

i say live with the imperfection. i've never gotten mine to line up no matter how many times i've tired and no matter how many brains been at it. went through the helm's, haynes, etc manual and still haven't gotten mine aligned. i too have an lsvtec. i say just live with it. i gave up after like a million tries on mine. but good luck on yours. if you do ever get it to line up. please pm me the secret...

ef92b

mine's just a little bit off though. was doing this while the cyl. head was simply placed on top the block with hand tightened ARP head bolts and 3 layer OEM HG.

B18B buttom
B16 head(not sure which year it was), both unmilled
new OEM P72 H2O/oil pump/ tensioner bearing
TODA cam gears and timing belt
Bisimoto/Web cams





it should be aligned perfectly once i get to torque the head bolts properly. haven't got time to do so till date.