chris2000

This is on a road race B16A 12:1 engine seeing consistent 9200-9500rpm.

My mech were asking if it could be possible to permantly lock vtec after degreeing the cams and run the cams permenantly locked so it will always be on the vtec lobe only since it is road race engine and tuned with Hondata S300.

Cams will be the S2 Pro2 with all S2 Pro valvetrain.

Please chipped in on any advantage you had or any dis-advantage you had encountered when locking vtec permantly.

Thanks.

chris2000

bump for more info on pro and cons.

Thanks

Godspeed07

i don't know too much about this topic however heres a few things i thought about when hearing your question. You'd be running radical cams with vtec locked, loopy idle etc....i think it would be very similar to running the vtec killer cams, however youd have all of that extra weight in the valve train with all of the non vtec components...which is the only downside i can see besides driveability in the low rpms. Just a suggestion...why not just run the cams like they are supposed to, once your in the higher rpms it wouldn't really matter....maybe lower the vtec engagement point to stay in a more agressive powerband ealier on....don't know if i helped out any. Good luck

Aquafina

iTrader: (3)

If he has VTEC locked, he can grind away the primaries. If his gearing is set up correctly, the only time he will need any lowend is from a standing start, or if he gets it sideways and corrects bogging it down.

If it was me, I'd sell the Skunks and change over to roller rockers. No point in not having VTEC if you still have all the weight and friction.

Godspeed07

i was under the impression that the vtec killer cams were more of a drag cam then a road race though....however i agree with Aquafina, may as well sell the skunk 2's and switch to roller rockers and vtec killer cams......less valvetrain weight...although im sure is only minimal, the overall gains might be worth your trouble. I don't have any experience with this though, it is purely theoretical.

Jay_Sensing

As far as I know, vtec killers were created specifically for road racing where a single cam profile is all that is allowed.

Aquafina

iTrader: (3)

Toda builds road racing cars...

With the roller cams, you save the weight of the secondary lobe, rocker, and LMA.

Don't know about the Cranes, but the Toda's are hollow.

lohatch

i locked mine using OEM rockers with solid pins through them. i was able to get them from 266 grams per set to 200-202 grams per set. i dont have a lot of time on the engine but it has a lopey idle at 2000 rpm, seems to have a rough time running between 3-4000 at cruise(might be able to clean up with more tuning) and goes like hell when you are on the gas

JDogg

look into the phantom grip rocker arms

MightyMouseTech

The TODA cams are probably the easiest way to do it. I have a set waiting to go into my new motor. My racing rules give a weight penalty for running VTEC, so we were looking for a way to get rid of it, and maybe even gain a few WHP at the same time.

b19coupe

I ran the Pro 2's with the Phantom Grip rocker arms. Below 4,000 RPM motor was not great. I would recommend running the Pro 2's with VTEC-they give a solid bottom end and kick *** in VTEC.

chris2000

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">look into the phantom grip rocker arms</TD></TR></TABLE>

Any website link to it? And what does this do?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b19coupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I ran the Pro 2's with the Phantom Grip rocker arms. Below 4,000 RPM motor was not great. I would recommend running the Pro 2's with VTEC-they give a solid bottom end and kick *** in VTEC.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So below 4000rpm is no good, but did the respond and power/torque above 4k better than if it had vtec?

We are just looking at the possibility of getting as much power and transient respond as possible in a road race B16A which sees only high rev and nothing below 6krpm during race.

During last weekend my friends JDM EK finish the race weekend 2nd position with a tough fight from start to finish and from the in board video we can see that it only lost to the 1st position EK on 5th gear at the final rev of 7500-9500.

b19coupe

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chris2000 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So below 4000rpm is no good, but did the respond and power/torque above 4k better than if it had vtec?
B16A which sees only high rev and nothing below 6krpm during race.</TD></TR></TABLE>
In that case, they just might work. Mine are for sale

chris2000

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b19coupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
In that case, they just might work. Mine are for sale </TD></TR></TABLE>

But do they actually have benifit in high rpm with locking them?

b19coupe

Theoretically the much lighter valve train allows the engine to rev more freely and frees up a few HP. I did not do back to back testing, so I can not vouch for these rockers.

Chris Tune

why the hell lock them if u are using a FULL vtec cam... vtec killers are made for this... and i have never locked the rockers but i highly doubt you will see any difference from locked to regular... other than exposing the valves springs cams and timing belt between many others in more stress than what they see normally with vtec and dont say it wont because its road racing and 6k plus etc etc, yeah and the car will NEVER have to idle at least for 20 secs.

you want it locked or cant use dual cam profiles, theres cams for that and will get more benefits than just locking stock ones...

chris2000

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris Tune &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why the hell lock them if u are using a FULL vtec cam... vtec killers are made for this... and i have never locked the rockers but i highly doubt you will see any difference from locked to regular... other than exposing the valves springs cams and timing belt between many others in more stress than what they see normally with vtec and dont say it wont because its road racing and 6k plus etc etc, yeah and the car will NEVER have to idle at least for 20 secs.

you want it locked or cant use dual cam profiles, theres cams for that and will get more benefits than just locking stock ones...</TD></TR></TABLE>

We were toying around the idea of locking the cams if there a specific gains or advantage doing it. We do not have the budget to buy Killer cams like Toda at the moment and thought toying around this idea to see if we gain any advantage in the high end for road racing.

I was worried with the lower revs and idle when vtec is locked as there might not be enough oil pressure to lube the head and valvtrain.

So were just hoping someone who might have tried this to advise.

JDogg

the PG rockers are much lighter and will help you make a little more power. they will also allow the motor to carry its power a few hundred rpms further (which would be a good thing for you)

Aquafina

iTrader: (3)

IIRC Brad (RLZ) got 400 more RPM to the powerband from the PG's.

Rocket

Just add your right foot to the "idle control" circuit and you'll be fine.

Don't expect to go from 2.5K to 5K smoothly, you won't like the "transition" into "VTEC". Clutch, Rev, Feather with left foot and Go!!

Aquafina

iTrader: (3)

I thought that was a normal driving technique...

Rocket

Clutch, rev to 7K, feather and go....

chris2000

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the PG rockers are much lighter and will help you make a little more power. they will also allow the motor to carry its power a few hundred rpms further (which would be a good thing for you)</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Aquafina &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IIRC Brad (RLZ) got 400 more RPM to the powerband from the PG's.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry if it is a noob question. What is PG??

AllMtrRex

They are talking about the Phantom Grip Rockers mentioned earlier by JDOGG...PG=phatom grip

mgags7

So your question here is "Will i gain power up top by locking the car in vtec with the same cams?"

am I correct?

If so I think the answer is apparent, no. Honda designed vtec as the perfect answer for a car like yours, a good idle and a very aggressive top end. Get some cams better suited to your powerband and keep vtec for driveability's sake, whether it be in and out of the pits or whatever, you'll be happy you did.

Look into skunk2's pro series cams if you're going to change the cams out, they're great.