0xenocron

As many of you may know, I am a long time Hondata Dealer and earlier this year I started making the move to do some more stuff with Haltech...to start on my own car which had some issues but recently I had the opportunity to do the perfect test on a totally stock Vehicle, a 2005 RSX Type S.

I was able to baseline the car on a stock ECU, then tune the car on a KPRO...and then tune the car again on a newer Haltech PRO Plugin ECU which is Plug and Play and Tune on these vehicles. They also have a Plug and Play unit now for the 2002-2004 RSX/EP3 available.

The process was the following, baseline the car with (3) pulls on the stock ECU. Then I installed the KPRO, and a new 02-04 Wideband...and I tuned the car to the fullest extent I could. I have a pretty decent set of maps to start with but I concentrated a lot on fine tuning this car with the KPRO. Once I felt I couldnt get any more power out of the vehicle, I swapped in the Haltech ECU, I literally COPY/PASTED the Cam Angle Tables into the Basemap provided...I set the timing maps to a conservative 26 degrees, and then I tuned the full throttle fuel MAPS using the VE Tables...it was so easy to tune the fueling using VE

I did one pull...and the Fuel and Timing Curves laid on top of each other. I was astonished...I added 1 degree of timing above 6000 rpms and it pulled out a few more HP then I could muster with the KPRO. So a total of two pulls and I was ahead of the game. I put the KPRO ECU back in for a back to back comparison and it laid on top of the old graph...the numbers you see here.

What I would say, is that if this is a Daily Driven Vehicle...because of the wideband O2 feedback, and the array of tuners comfortable with Hondata out there, and the fact most states need the stock ECU for emissions, I would say continue to go with the Hondata systems for these types of Vehicles. The Haltech can be setup using one of their wideband systems for full time O2 feedback as well, and part throttle driveability, starting, warmup and such can all be tuned the same as well so if you are a do-it-yourself type tuner...this is a fun system to learn. So many options...

I think a car that spends most of its time on the track would highly benefit from a standalone like this...with its advanced logging abilities, you can connect a Racepak Dash to these ECUs, and the fact you know you have full control over the engine. I still feel a lot of "Factory" ECUs have way too many things going on that still havent fully been reverse engineered to be bullet proof in this area.

Comments, criticism or questions on my testing process welcomed...no smoke and mirrors here. I think 99% of the people out there could get to the same end with either system, they are relatively priced the same...just another comparison that I was happy to be able to do and thought I would share!

DDTECH

Well, looking in depth, what other options does haltech provide vs kpro..

I mean people will say a tuning program is a tuning program.. but they fail to look under the lining, with coding, and how things are actually calulated..

I think haltech is a good thing coming up, infact, i've done 2 cars with haltech and i like it, it seems @ first its alittle hard to get used to, if your used to all these other programs but its nice.. i'd like to see motec's new stuff as well

Great test chris.

0xenocron

Features on this page for the plug in boxes:
http://www2.haltech.com.au/index.php...=135&Itemid=96

I did want to copy/paste because its long...

Here are the big ones VS KPRO:

- Real time programming, instant hesitation free adjustment while engine is running

Expansion I/O*:
• 2 x Analogue Voltage inputs
• 2 x Analogue Temperature inputs
• 4 x Digital pulsed outputs

The have a GENERIC Correction Table, user defined...think E85 with the "Flex Fuel" Sensor

And the ability for more logging using a Racepak Logger Dash...

The possibilities are endless with a standalone and since Haltech is in such a state of advancement right now, I think if you could come up with a compelling software idea, they would be able to implement something new fairly easily.

If you know me...you know I like options

El Verdugo

Spot on comparison, well done!
I try to push the Haltech to many clients and let them know that there are more options out there. I like the fact also that with the Haltech one does not have to send away the ECU to have the KPRO installed. For people that live in other countries this is a determining factor and great to have a system that is PnP for the vehicle.

EJ6_Hatch

Awesome!

Spent

All else may be true but you still left out one of the most important differences. For finding maximum power (especially with after market cams), Kpro is more efficient and way less time consuming to program due to due multiple cam angle maps that Kpro offers but Haltech, along with other standalones don't offer this. They simply offer a generic cam angle map that applies to both the low and high cam instead of breaking it down like kpro does by providing a separate fuel and ignition table for every 10 degrees of cam angle change on the low and high cam. To do cam angle tuning to reach the same results as kpro will more than likely take several extra hours on other platforms. Why because you would have to set the cam angle in Haltech to 0 degrees, then tune the fuel, then copy and paste those files into an excel spread sheet. Do the same thing for 10,20,30,40,50 degrees of cam anle. Then you look at the dyno runs and see which cam angles created the most power at what rpm range. Then you set those cam angles in the cam angle map in Haltech. Then one has to either take the data/fuel values from the excel spread sheet and copy over those values for each little section/rpm range that applies to the corresponding cam angle until finished, or retune the fuel curve once again with the new optimized cam angles.....................VERY TIME CONSUMING!!!!! How many tuners out there do you really think will take the time to do it correctly if many hardly ever take the time to cam angle tune on kpro which is far more efficiently done to begin with?

Don't misread what I'm saying. Truth be known I'm a big fan of standalone ECU's like Haltech and the great things they bring to the table but for k series motors where cam angles come into play, it's simply not the best option for the vast majority of setups.

mar778c

iTrader: (1)

Spent did you read the post. Chris did tuned kpro 1st then tuned the haltech by copying and pasting the maps. Unless you are doubting his fealty, your premise is wrong. I've seen the difference in going from a S300 to a AEM on a race motor.

Spent

And he scaled the rpm range and load break points the same way? No disrespect but if a/f ratios, ignition values, and cam angles are exactly the same, then there should be no difference at that low of a power level. It may not hurt to show a/f ratios when posting these sort of threads.

I can see a slight difference when dealing with elevated HP Levels, especially on distrubutor type setups where standalones are usually able to provide a stronger spark (usually through dwell,spark angle, etc. tunuing) but on a K, I doubt it.

d00mlol

ive messed around with kpro, and i love how its soooo user friendly.

jtperf

good info xenocron, i used the platinum1000 on rwd cars and it's awsome, glad to see good results on the k's

DDTECH

You know im inclined to agree. In all aspects , and i'll use a freeware software.. if all aspects are the same, timing, afr, gear settings etc etc.. crome vs hondata.. there really shouldn't be any "big" difference... a tuning program is a tuning program. They all do the same ****, just some tools are better coded.. like boost controls .. or something of that nature..

but i'm inclined to see both sides. And it makes me wonder if people are coding their dwell ign differently then stock or others.. and for those who dont know, dwell ign is where the ecu / program actually compensates as you increase rpms, it increases timing.

0xenocron

Yes, of course I scaled the RPM break points the same, and for load...I was at full throttle, so that load point was the same, I wasnt concentrating on part throttle for this test.

And check out the graph again...AFRs were on the second graph. They were slightly richer on the Haltech than the KPRO, but I can PROMISE you a .5 change in AFR will not gain/lose you power in SOME spots and not other. If the motor really is happier at "X" it will change everywhere...it didnt in this case.

I had a nice conversation about some of these things with Doug @ Hondata the other day, and when I get a chance to again, I'll be trying at some of his ideas and testing some of the questions he brought up...

But thats the thing, ARE THEY THE SAME? With the few billion lines of programming in stock CODE...how many of those lines have actually been figured out by Crome, Neptune, eCtune, Hondata...Uberdata? They havent...there is a LOT going on in the background, and if you look back when all of this started, they werent even close in comparison. There are a lot of things going on for emissions and other purposes...and we certainly dont have access to them all and none of these ROM Editors can claim they know what is going on at all times.

This year, stock code Rom Editors have found bugs, released new code with access to different maps, able to disable certain routines, etc...they are STILL LEARNING and with the new Flash Based stuff, there is even more to figure out. (and to be scared of)

Listen, I LOVE a Honda ECU on a Honda for a street car...but put an NA car at 26 degrees at full throttle on each of the softwares out there and hold a timing light to the crank pulley and tell me how different each of them is when you do a pull at identical conditions

The fact that I can "disable ignition adjustments" in eCtune and Neptune but I cant in Hondata leads me to wonder things.

The fact that a few certain KPRO cars I have tuned this year (non VTC, giant lobe, etc) were having issues not following timing in the maps leads me to wonder.

When I put a standalone at 26 degrees...I expect to see 26 degrees at the crank.

I just tuned my stock S2000 on Haltech yesterday, I still have more things to iron out...but I'll post those graphs as well, they were promising as a start.

Spent

Big fail on my part for missing the a/f ratios on the second chart. Regardless, fuel values were obviously not equal. I can see your statement in regards to such a small change in a/f ratios and I presume that you were referring strictly to all motor applications. However, it's not always the case and small changes in fuel can have more adverse affects as ignition values increase, hence why a/f ratios get leaner as timing increases and vice versa without ever changing the fuel values in the tune. As timing increases more of the combustion takes place inside the combustion chamber, hence the a/f ratios reading leaner, and as timing decreases less of the combustion happens in the combustion chamber and all the fuel may not be ignited thus causing the a/f ratios to read richer. Cam profiles come into play as well but not as much on vtec/ivtec motors. Again, I appreciate Haltech and all that it offers but for the K, it's just not right for most people like you mentioned, even tracked K series setups. If anything, the average person who takes either units to a dyno shop will more than likely get shorted on power with a Haltech unit. Not because it's inferior, but because the majority of tuners will not spend the extra hours on cam angle tuning of aftermarket cams because it's a more tedious task. Also because kpro offers it's own distinct cam angle map for the low cam and the high cam, you have optimum throttle response with more power under all driving conditions. With haltech, one will have to sacrifice depending on the application of the car which will generally dictate the rpm range in which the car will spend most of it's time because the low cam will generally use different cam angles for maximum power than what the high cam uses at the same rpm.

To those out there who are considering purchasing a haltech or any other standalone unit because your tuner pushes you towards it for any good reason, ask him if he is going to spend the extra 2 or 3 hours worth of cam angle tuning with the standalone over kpro and if he will do it for the same price....

In regards to timing, because 40 (just a random number) degrees gave maximum power, doesn't mean that 38 or 42 will not give you the same power. With dyno tuning, one can add timing up to maximum power is reach. Often times even 2 degrees of timing can be added (regardless of tuning platform) and the power curve will stay exactly the same. As we all know, if you add slightly more timing you can actually loose power and add some more and the engine will encounter detonation. Different engines naturally behave different but this is generally a rule of thumb for most. Obviously 26 is indeed conservative you like said and thus hiding power. I would of enjoyed seeing what it would made with optimized ignition values and thanks for sharing. By the way, this info is intended for those who may not understand as much as you do in regards to tuning.

DDTECH

Chris, thx for the explanation.

0xenocron

If your tuner was more comfortable with Haltech vs KPRO...dont you think he would be able to extract the same power in a more timely fashion rather than using a software/hardware platform he wasnt comfortable or had used before?

But what if all of the fuel is ignited? Near or at MBT this is not going to happen in my experience.

If MBT is 26 degrees and you are firing the spark plug at 10 degrees...sure. But if MBT is 26 and you fire the plug at 24 degrees...I dont agree.

There is a very LARGE window of AFRs to choose from when tuning All Motor, Turbo...etc which will net you no more than a very small amount of change also depending on what fuel you are using that window changes. On pump...its pretty wide. You could run this car from 11.5 to 14.0 and I bet you wouldnt see more than a 3% change in power from one end to the other. Go past either of those values and power will drop SIGNIFICANTLY or engine damage can occur...but dont think that a difference of 12.5 - 13.0 on an all motor car is going to net you much of a change on pump on the dyno.

This is why you tune fuel first and then move on to timing...unless your base timing values were off significantly you will not have to go back and retune fuel

When I get my car back together, I'll do a similar test...I just got my 02-04 RSX/EP3 plug and play box this week. And I'll do some runs at 11.5, 12.5 and 13.5 AFRS on both KPRO and Haltech for you

Spent

There is no way on earth it's faster to tune cam angles on haltech than on kpro. Some tuners charge a flat rate which is great and others charge by the hour so at that point, it becomes about price as well. To me it's not what the tuner is comfortable with. It's what tuning program/hardware is best for the application, then finding a tuner who is familiar with the program/hardware and not the other way around. Granted, I'm a tuner myself. Plus who feels comfortable tuning on Haltech that doesn't feel comfortable tuning on Kpro as long as it's been out already.

Like I said earlier, I'm a big fan of Haltech but I wouldn't even think twice about going with kpro on a k series over any standalone, even on drag applications. Been running it on my 600whp (93 octane) RSX-S for 4 years now and love it. Based on the cam angles that my cams like, I know for a fact I would have had to sacrifice power in the mid range to make it work with Haltech due to Haltech having only one composite cam angle map that applies to both the low and high cam. Any other motor, Haltech along with most other standalones get a big thumbs up.

I have to agree with you to a certain extend when it comes to all motor cars and a/f ratios. Usually maximum power (for both domestics and imports) on mild cam setups is between 13.3-13.6. Supercharger is 12.2-12.6 (depending on boost) and turbo is 11.5-12. Pass that range and power is generally negatively affected or unsafe. When dealing with all motor cars, 3% is a huge in my book. Not to mention that running a/f rations in the 10's or lower can wash out the piston rings over time, contaminate the oil and wear the internals over time. I see it on base maps all the time and even factory calibrations.

I simply can't see one system delivering more power than the other when a/f ratios are the same and ignition values are the same, unless dwell settings are more aggressive on the other and I doubt Haltech uses the same dwell settings from the base map than Hondata does. It shouldn't even be a debate. I appreciate the a/f comparison but I think it's fair to say I've seen my share of dyno charts to know how a/f ratios and ignition values affect power.

JDogg

I am going to have to disagree that kpro is faster.. kpro takes wayyyy to long to get perfectly dialed in. Tuning each cam angle map takes too many pulls and too much time.

for most setups its pretty easy to build a "close" cam angle map and go from there. I can tune a k-series car with aem in 1/2 the time I can with kpro.. I havent used the haltech in a k-series car, but I imagine its pretty close to the same process as with aem.

and from my experience a car with aem will make more power and go faster than a car with hondata.

but for 90% of street cars the most accessible ecu is the one to go with.. you never know when you'll be out of town or move and suddenly be very far from a good tuner b/c you went with an obscure ecu.

Spent

So let me get this straight.... "Close enough" is good enough for you and your customers??? No wonder it's only "half the time". Trust me, if I didn't cam angle tune, it will be way less time consuming. Then again, if cam angle tuning is not part of your tuning fee on a K motor then I can understand perfectly.

Everything that we tune (imports and domestics) is posted online (customer willing) with a dyno chart as you are probably well aware of. It does put every tune up for scrutiny or appreciation publicly. We do this for several reasons and it is exactly why we leave no room for error and extract all available power, therefore we have no second thoughts about dedicating the time do things right, and by "right" we don't mean good enough, we mean as efficiently tuned as it gets.

Tuning cams angles PERFECTLY (which is what I'm referring to) is faster on Kpro than other standalones. Yes, it can be a tedious task but still considerably less time-consuming than a standalone when tuning cam angles for PERFECTION. Even if tuning cam angles perfectly is not your thing (which defeats the purpose of having i-vtec), all you have to do is check off the box on kpro so that the changes apply to all the cam angle maps which will ultimately be similar in function to having one composite cam angle map like Haltech and other standalones. Don't forget to also copy and paste all the fuel values from preferably the 30 degree map to all the other cam angle maps before you start tuning with this method or you will have a really awkward looking 2D-3D chart. Again, what's the point of having adjustable cam angles if you are not going to take advantage of tuning it the right way.

JDogg

no, you misunderdstand..

my base is close enough to where i dont NEED to have every cam angle tuned for every situation.. why spend time tuning for cam angles are arent using? I never said close enough is "good" enough, but in the world of tuning and building cars very rarely is it ever even possible for it to be perfect. you are kidding yourself if you think it is. there is ALWAYS a compromise, ALWAYS.

once you are within a few degrees of where its needs to be the fuel/ign isnt going to change much in the process of dialing in the cam angles.

and there is no such thing as PERFECTION when it comes to cam angles, it takes the system a set amount of time to move the cam angle on a fast car the system doesnt have enough time to react in the lower gears, do you compensate for that, but sacrifice some in the higher gears?

IMHO kpro works but it is FAR from the best. There are to many variables you cant control and cant tune for.

Spent

It's actually more straight forward than most people are aware of. It's something I usually keep to myself but I'll let you in and all others on a little secret for cam angle tuning. Set the ignition values the same for all cam angles in kpro. Then copy and paste the fuel values from say "30 degrees", to the rest of the cam angles. 30 degrees is usually a good cam angle to start with. Do a run with the cam angles locked a 0, 10,20,30,40,and 50*. Check with cam manufacturer to make sure that 50 degrees is safe first since some cams will run into clearance issues. Don't do anything else timing or fuel related till the end. Look where the a/f ratios get leaner in the chart and completely ignore the power curve for the time being. The leaner it gets the more air is flowing on the intake side. Take the leanest areas, see what cam angles they used and set the cam angle table accordingly. Then check the box that makes changes to all the cam angle maps so that any fuel and ignition changes apply to all the cam angles and then tune accordingly. You just cut what most tuners take 4 extra hours to tune and turned it into a 30-60 minute process by eliminating the need to tune cam angles which the car will not need all while having maximum power throughout the rev range. Don't forget this applies to both low and high cam since kpro has 2 cam angle maps. Once done, uncheck the box that applies changes to all cam angles, set the cam angle map to 0 degrees and tune it by itself since this is the cam angle that the car will run in limp mode. Revert back to the proper cam angle map after tuning the 0 degree angle tables and done!

You are absolutely right in that tuning is indeed a compromise. Hence why I also said as efficiently tuned as possible. With any other system than kpro, there is a bigger compromise for reasons stated earlier (kpro has 2 cam angle maps, others have only 1). I can't stress enough the important of having 2 cam angle maps.

FYI, it only takes .1 second for every 10 degrees of cam angle change. Cam angle changes are always linear, therefore not an issue when tuned correctly when it comes to the sprockets ability to keep up with rpm. I have seen base maps where there is a 30 degree jump between low cam and high cam but that's corrected through proper tuning to eliminate this lag.

crx=si

damn it dude!! why'd you let my secret out like this??? lol. Just kidding, I actually do exactly the samething and cut down the tune time tremendously. I actually stumbled over this method while tuning out a bunch of evo 9 with mivec, same thing. On the evo 9 it goes even further by having 6 separate ig maps so copy and paste is your friend


On the other note, I totally agree with the AF was not the same on the 2 diff managements, tune it out the same AF and I'm sure the hp will be the same. I hate it when people trying to promote new engine management by how much more power it can make over the other, in the end you're controlling combustion events so the outcomes should be the same if you hit the same amount of timing and AF. Although timing from one engine management to the next might be differ in values, but that's why you practice pulling plugs. The only time when one engine management better than the others is when consider things like extra options/outputs/inputs/logging/onboard/traction control/etc...

Spent

^ lol... You're a smart man.... Just so you know, there are a total of 10 fuel and 10 ignition maps with kpro since there are 5 for the low cam and 5 for the high cam, then 2 for the 0 degrees cam angle maps (a.k.a limp mode cam angle) which the car will hopefully never see. Yep, copy and paste is our friend.

crx=si

yeah I know kpro = 22 maps including the 2 cam angle tables
evo9 = 9 maps = 2 fuel maps (low/high octane in event of knock), 6 ign maps (3 low, 3 high octane ign map), 1 cam angle table.
Yup, def copy and paste is your friend, lol

0xenocron

26 maps on the kpro

6 fuel low cam
6 fuel high cam
6 ign low cam
6 ign high cam
2 composite maps

Spent

Nice, usually when I encounter low octane/high octane or knock maps, I copy the high values over the low values, subtract 2 degrees of timing from the low octane/knock map depending on the sensitivity of the knock sensor since not all knock sensors are created equal, and add 5-10% more fuel on average on the low octane/knock map. Keeps it simple, done in less than 5 minutes and gets the job done. It's mainly Nissan, Ford, Dodge and GM vehicles that's I've seen with these kind of tunable tables though. Glad to know Evo's have their version of it as well.