Header Test - K20 - SMSP vs DTR/SSR
07-20-2007, 04:09 PM
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Header Test - K20 - SMSP vs DTR/SSR
I finally, finally got around to testing my latest K swap header. A big 
goes to BolivianFuego for the use of his car and B&T Motorsports in Lorton, VA.
The engine is a JDM Type R K20 with a RBC IM and K Pro. BolivianFuego has a 4-2-1 DTR/SSR stainless header on the car with a 2-1/2" outlet going into a 3" exhaust. The car was tuned by Brian Fisher at Inline Pro using K Pro so we know it has a good tune.
For this comparison the 3" exhaust was dropped and both headers were run open, since we weren't going to fab something up to bolt to the B pipe. We made 5 runs with the DTR/SSR and then installed the SMSP header. We only did 2 runs with the SMSP header. For the life of me I don't know why we didn't make more runs until we saw a power loss, but we didn't.
The red line is the best of 5 tuned runs with the DTR/SSR. The yellow is the best of the 2 untuned runs with the SMSP. The second graph shows the AFR and torque curve of the untuned SMSP. It's obvious that the low and mid range of the SMSP header could be significantly improved with tuning. I believe VTEC xover could even be moved down close to 3000 rpm.
All in all, I'm happy with the improvements in torque from 5000-5700 and the peak gain of 4.5 whp over the DTR/SSR header with absolutely no tuning.
goes to BolivianFuego for the use of his car and B&T Motorsports in Lorton, VA.The engine is a JDM Type R K20 with a RBC IM and K Pro. BolivianFuego has a 4-2-1 DTR/SSR stainless header on the car with a 2-1/2" outlet going into a 3" exhaust. The car was tuned by Brian Fisher at Inline Pro using K Pro so we know it has a good tune.
For this comparison the 3" exhaust was dropped and both headers were run open, since we weren't going to fab something up to bolt to the B pipe. We made 5 runs with the DTR/SSR and then installed the SMSP header. We only did 2 runs with the SMSP header. For the life of me I don't know why we didn't make more runs until we saw a power loss, but we didn't.
The red line is the best of 5 tuned runs with the DTR/SSR. The yellow is the best of the 2 untuned runs with the SMSP. The second graph shows the AFR and torque curve of the untuned SMSP. It's obvious that the low and mid range of the SMSP header could be significantly improved with tuning. I believe VTEC xover could even be moved down close to 3000 rpm.
All in all, I'm happy with the improvements in torque from 5000-5700 and the peak gain of 4.5 whp over the DTR/SSR header with absolutely no tuning.
07-20-2007, 06:04 PM
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Re: (George Knighton)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is the SMSP header also a 4-2-1 ?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes
Yes
07-20-2007, 06:22 PM
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Re: (Natural Aspirations)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Natural Aspirations »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I do not understand NOT tuning the second header??? What is the point of this? </TD></TR></TABLE>
To show potential.
To show potential.
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07-20-2007, 09:54 PM
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Re: (SMSP)
Another unbiased (pffft) header comparison.And Yeah why would you even post an untuned pull and say (In my dorkiest voice)"And thats untuned,Can you imagine if it was tuned? Dur!!!
07-21-2007, 05:15 AM
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Re: (RMF Headers)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RMF Headers »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... why would you even post an untuned pull ....Dur!!!</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm guessing that it was because nobody had the time and money to fiddle with returning Bolivian Fuego's car back to the DTR tune after the testing.
I think that most of us would agree with you that it would have been much more helpful to the general readership if they had tuned and then tuned again. I know that it would have been time consuming and expensive, but most of us would want to know for sure that the dip in torque in the street driving range could be tuned out.
I'm guessing that it was because nobody had the time and money to fiddle with returning Bolivian Fuego's car back to the DTR tune after the testing.
I think that most of us would agree with you that it would have been much more helpful to the general readership if they had tuned and then tuned again. I know that it would have been time consuming and expensive, but most of us would want to know for sure that the dip in torque in the street driving range could be tuned out.
07-21-2007, 05:50 AM
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Re: (George Knighton)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm guessing that it was because nobody had the time and money to fiddle with returning Bolivian Fuego's car back to the DTR tune after the testing.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
they would have saved his DTR tune on the hard drive of the laptop. Just changing to the smsp isnt going to throw off the tune enough anyway for them to make anymore than a few passes to get it tuned again.
just my opinion.
I'm guessing that it was because nobody had the time and money to fiddle with returning Bolivian Fuego's car back to the DTR tune after the testing.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
they would have saved his DTR tune on the hard drive of the laptop. Just changing to the smsp isnt going to throw off the tune enough anyway for them to make anymore than a few passes to get it tuned again.
just my opinion.
07-21-2007, 05:55 AM
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Re: (98vtec)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98vtec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">they would have saved his DTR tune on the hard drive of the laptop. Just changing to the smsp isnt going to throw off the tune enough anyway for them to make anymore than a few passes to get it tuned again.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, then we're back to wondering why it wasn't tuned.
Stringing us along for marketing reasons?
Well, then we're back to wondering why it wasn't tuned.
Stringing us along for marketing reasons?
07-21-2007, 06:22 AM
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Re: Header Test - K20 - SMSP vs DTR/SSR (SMSP)
Come on guys, dont bite his head off just becasue he didnt get it fully tuned.
The fact is, when it was done neither i or dave, nor anyone at that shop was qualified to mess with hondata. I'm just a novice lol i suck, and im sure dave's in the same boat.
This was just used to see what it would make if we slapped it on. Im sure you could clean up the 3000-4000 area a tad with some tuning, and messing around with vtec. But i really dont think we'd see that much of a drastic change then this. Truth is, the SMSP made a little more power than my SSR, in most of the RPM band. With tuning, im sure you could straighten up the tq curve too. Did anyone see that? Its pretty sick. From 5k-redline, its got DTR's number in the tq dept.
The fact is, when it was done neither i or dave, nor anyone at that shop was qualified to mess with hondata. I'm just a novice lol i suck, and im sure dave's in the same boat.
This was just used to see what it would make if we slapped it on. Im sure you could clean up the 3000-4000 area a tad with some tuning, and messing around with vtec. But i really dont think we'd see that much of a drastic change then this. Truth is, the SMSP made a little more power than my SSR, in most of the RPM band. With tuning, im sure you could straighten up the tq curve too. Did anyone see that? Its pretty sick. From 5k-redline, its got DTR's number in the tq dept.
07-21-2007, 06:23 AM
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Finding gains just by bolting the header on is impressive. A complete tune from scratch, including cam angles, would truly show the potential of this header. I would love to try
07-21-2007, 06:37 AM
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Re: (BolivianFuego)
Also this dynapack in comparison reads low to a dynojet, here are the dynojet numbers with my SSR/DTR-Fab.
Here's a pic of her on the dynapack. My lady.
Modified by BolivianFuego at 10:50 AM 7/21/2007
Here's a pic of her on the dynapack. My lady.
Modified by BolivianFuego at 10:50 AM 7/21/2007
07-21-2007, 06:39 AM
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Re: (RMF Headers)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RMF Headers »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Another unbiased (pffft) header comparison.And Yeah why would you even post an untuned pull and say (In my dorkiest voice)"And thats untuned,Can you imagine if it was tuned? Dur!!!</TD></TR></TABLE>
....
FYI- Tom (The tech at B&T) was the guy who worked on the car. The only thing that I did the whole day was help him guide the DTR/SSR and my header (from the top) when he was installing them. This was only the second time that I was at this shop. I usually test at ProMotion's Dynojet which is near my shop but they were booked. Yesterday I paid $250 for the Dynapack time and even paid extra for the removal and installation of the headers. At ProMotion I do that myself.
Based on the AFR for my header, I confidently feel that the curve can be cleaned up. Some of you may not and you are entitled to your opinions. But I made the decision not to tune my header further. BolivianFuego should be posting info on his tuning session at Inline Pro. I have not seen any of it yet, I just know that Brian Fisher is a top notch tuner in our area.
If someone feels the DTR/SSR is a better header then by all means go buy their header. There is plently of work out there for all of us.
BTW, Derek (dfoxengr) is working at B&T for the summer and he was there also. He can vouch that nothing funny was going on during the testing.
Modified by SMSP at 11:09 AM 7/21/2007
....
FYI- Tom (The tech at B&T) was the guy who worked on the car. The only thing that I did the whole day was help him guide the DTR/SSR and my header (from the top) when he was installing them. This was only the second time that I was at this shop. I usually test at ProMotion's Dynojet which is near my shop but they were booked. Yesterday I paid $250 for the Dynapack time and even paid extra for the removal and installation of the headers. At ProMotion I do that myself.
Based on the AFR for my header, I confidently feel that the curve can be cleaned up. Some of you may not and you are entitled to your opinions. But I made the decision not to tune my header further. BolivianFuego should be posting info on his tuning session at Inline Pro. I have not seen any of it yet, I just know that Brian Fisher is a top notch tuner in our area.
If someone feels the DTR/SSR is a better header then by all means go buy their header. There is plently of work out there for all of us.
BTW, Derek (dfoxengr) is working at B&T for the summer and he was there also. He can vouch that nothing funny was going on during the testing.
Modified by SMSP at 11:09 AM 7/21/2007
07-21-2007, 06:46 AM
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Re: (b19coupe)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b19coupe »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Finding gains just by bolting the header on is impressive. A complete tune from scratch, including cam angles, would truly show the potential of this header. I would love to try </TD></TR></TABLE>
You already had one of my header to tune this month.
</TD></TR></TABLE>You already had one of my header to tune this month.
07-21-2007, 06:50 AM
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Re: (SMSP)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SMSP »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">....
Based on the AFR for my header, I confidently feel that the curve can be cleaned up. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I wish you had been able to show it to us today, but I understand that it's hard to get one owner with one car in one place at one time to trade headers and tune all day long.
It would have been great because if you are right about the tuning, you'd have been able to take the Hondata Crown recommendation away from DTR in the right here and now.
Based on the AFR for my header, I confidently feel that the curve can be cleaned up. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I wish you had been able to show it to us today, but I understand that it's hard to get one owner with one car in one place at one time to trade headers and tune all day long.
It would have been great because if you are right about the tuning, you'd have been able to take the Hondata Crown recommendation away from DTR in the right here and now.
07-21-2007, 06:51 AM
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Re: (SMSP)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SMSP »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You already had one of my headers to tune this month.</TD></TR></TABLE>
True, but KPro is so much more fun to tune than an S300
True, but KPro is so much more fun to tune than an S300
07-21-2007, 09:35 AM
#23
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Re: (George Knighton)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It would have been great because if you are right about the tuning, you'd have been able to take the Hondata Crown recommendation away from DTR in the right here and now.</TD></TR></TABLE>
thats what i'm saying....but apparently he is wanting to keep the critics around
It would have been great because if you are right about the tuning, you'd have been able to take the Hondata Crown recommendation away from DTR in the right here and now.
</TD></TR></TABLE>thats what i'm saying....but apparently he is wanting to keep the critics around
