98vtec

Ok so this topic has been bugging me ALOT the past couple days do to this post
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1671032&page=1

I have talked to Frank from PocketRockets and I know he knows what he is talking about. But I havent heard of other people running into valve guide to retainer issues with Type S and higher lift cams. The maximum lift the stock guides can take is .490"

If you are running a cam of that size or smaller, please post if you have had trouble with your rocker arms wearing out.

Here's the post by Frank:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PocketRockets Racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I install crower components all the time, especially H22's......and I actually happen to know what I am doing .

the Crower titanium retainers are designed to sit +0.060" higher up the valve stem.....This allows high lift cams to be used without changing the valve guides....
Honda installs type S cams in Japan of ocurse, but the head is different, the valve guides are installed deeper in the head......type S cams have 0.471" lift, I have some here and I also have a 2001 Type S here.....I have my own flow bench so I am quite involved in heads/engines....

installing high lift cams such as the factory Type S head or any brand, without changing the guides/retainer installed height means the retainers hits the valve seal/guide....a stock H22 head has the retainer hit the guide at 0.490 of lift...

back to Crower.....so crower does it correctly, as the factory rockers vary in forgings, some and most interfere with this newly raised retainer, so they have the be slightly "clearanced", its quite as easy modification to do once you know whats going on and are set up to do it.

I change the valve guides in every head that comes in this shop, the guides material is upgraded to manganese bronze and they are "honed" to fit to each individual valve.....nice accurate tolerances get even more critical as we seek to extract more HP from engines.

I am into all kinds of stuff, I have Crower make a stage 4 cams for the street for me that still retains a non-vtec idle lobe that is acceptable.

anyways thats the low down.........anyone who says the Type S cams fit a regualar h22 are full of crap, they do "install" but the rest of the system is not designed to accept them.....they have no idea whats going on.....thats why they don't get much more power as should be had or they run into valvetrain problems, dropping valves and simply screwing up engines....


Frank
Pocketrockets Racing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The main reason i am asking for input on this is because i am gonna be running Rockets H24x cam which he tells me can be installed without doing any modifications to the head.

the cam profile is:

12.7mm Intake lift
12mm Exhaust lift

262 intake duration @ .050
260 exhaust duration @ .050

It's really worrying me that Rocket tells me i can install these with no problems and then Frank, who knows anything and everything about the H22 motor, says it cant be done without modifying the rockers to run a retainer that has a higher installed height.

The other thing i am wonder is that maybe Rockets valvetrain is setup to where he took the valve guide situation into consideration during the design of the valvetrain being the reason i wouldnt run into any problems.


I'm really worried right now. If i have to modify some things to make it work, i dont mind. I just want to know the right thing to do.

hopefully i can get some final answers here.

DonF

Listen to Frank. Then do your own measurements, and you will know. Minimum ret.to seal is 1mm. If Frank says check it, then check it.

98vtec

i'd really like to know why Rocket said i could do it. I sent him an email a few days ago, but havent gotten another reply yet.

could there be something special about his valvetrain that allows for him to run such a high lift (12.7mm - .500") without modifying the rockers or valve seals. I trust Frank, but i would like to know why Rocket is telling me something that Frank is telling me is not going to work.

i'm sure you understand my concerns here..........

98vtec

where are all the Tech guys

MAX_CFM

If using a Rocket retainer GEN1 style it will gain retainer to seal ..

I have run almost 570 lift in h22 with rocket Retainer

MAX_CFM

oops I forgot it also Sits in factory INstall HT

So no retainer to rocker problems ..

98vtec

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MAX_CFM &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If using a Rocket retainer GEN1 style it will gain retainer to seal ..

I have run almost 570 lift in h22 with rocket Retainer</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thank you Brad.

Well that clears my problem up

so tell me this. If i werent going to be running RM valvetrain, say i was going to be running portflow valvetrain. What all would i need to do in order to fix the clearance issue?


Modified by 98vtec at 11:09 PM 6/27/2006

MAX_CFM

Spot face the top the valve guide .075 to .125 shorter ..

There will still be one rib to hold the seal on the guide .......

98vtec

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MAX_CFM &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Spot face the top the valve guide .075 to .125 shorter ..

There will still be one rib to hold the seal on the guide .......</TD></TR></TABLE>

thats what i thought (not the measurements, just the idea ) Then in order to run the Crower raised retainers, you would need to grind/balance the rocker arms to gain more clearance correct?........

machine4321

yea i thikn thats all there is to it , i think they call for .030 on the under side of the primary rockers

RMF

Hey kid I have the cutter you need.You can't use it ...I just wanted to let you know I had one.hehe

98vtec

thanks Randy

ojasia

What did you end up doing. I was checking mine today. I set up mike belben dial indicator I rotated each cam one at a time to max lift then set dial to 0 then pulled bottom of valve till retainer hit guide. EX is .180" and IN .145" VTEC is locked, lash at 0 and these measurements are without the seal and checking the seal out and stuff my EX side should cut it but IN is way to close. (platform H22 pro1's with full S2 pro series valvetrain) Wondering what you ended up doing? S2 says nothing about needing new guides or lowering them, so I'm confused cause going through service manual they are within spec.