civicsirsk

Hey everyone, I am wanting to start a N/A build on my EM1 SiR, my WHP goal is to eventually be from 225 to 250. I know that going F/I would get me to my goals faster and for cheaper but it just isn't the way I want to go. I want to be able to keep driving this thing 10years later. My car has 190,000km, cold air intake(unknown) and a exhaust muffler(unknown), everything else is pretty much stock.

Right now my plans are to buy:
S300 Hondata tune and computer
Fuel Pressure Regulator-adjustable and variable
Fuel Rail
300cc injectors
grounding kit
new cold air intake

What I am wanting to know is what brands to use, and what else to buy to achieve my goals. This car will most likely be staying with me for the rest of its life because it has always been one of my dream cars. Budget right now is 5k and under. Thanks in advance!

EsotericImage

iTrader: (8)

Well, most of the parts you listed arent going to a thing.

S300 Hondata tune and computer Useless on a stock engine
Fuel Pressure Regulator-adjustable and variable - useless
Fuel Rail - useless
300cc injectors- useless
grounding kit - OK. im sure grounds could be refreshed
new cold air intake - why change it from the one u already have?

IDK what youve been reading.. But 225-250WHP equals 275-290 at the crank. THis wont happen unless you get a turbo. Period.


Back to the drawing board.



This is the 3rd EM1 thread in 3 hours. Leave the car alone. It will be a collectors item and too many have been molested already.

civicsirsk

Thank you for your input, if you did not read what I said, that is what I'm going to start with, I'm not installing anything until everything is bought for my goal. I know 250whp on a b16 is a little crazy, but with time and money it can be done. And if you aren't going to be helping me, don't bother wasting your time telling me what I want is useless and telling me to go F/I. Why? Because I don't wanna spend around 4k just to run 8psi, because i know if I want more psi and more hp I'm going to have to rebuild at least the bottom end and spend more money on new injectors, turbo, throttle body, etc. Then I gotta worry about having the perfect tune and it not being much reliable. Sorry, but it just isn't for me, I would much rather stay N/A.

civicsirsk

220whp will now be the max for my goal, will look into S/C kits but would much rather stay N/A. What are some good S/C kits and what are the pros and cons about them

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Sit down. You're about to get a lesson.

Supercharging a 1.6L is stupid. Stop thinking about it. It's pretty obvious that you have absolutely no clue what it'll take to get to your goal. It's also extremely obvious that you don't know the first thing about F/I, or N/A builds.

First off, if you want 250 NA, you will absolutely have to rip into your motor - bolt-ons aren't going to get you there. At the very least, you'll need to completely rework your valvetrain to support higher revs and more airflow. There's $1200+ right there just for good cams, gears, valves, springs, and retainers, and that's not counting the new gaskets you'll HAVE to replace, the timing belt and components you SHOULD replace, the rod bolts you DEFINITELY SHOULD upgrade, head studs that are VERY NECESSARY, and the tune that would be ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to get you into higher RPMs. So, after all of that, assuming you do it correctly, you're now $2200+ in, just to increase your rev limit.

Now let's look at supporting mods. Putting two grand into the motor just to rev higher, when you have stock intake and exhaust manifolds, is quite frankly stupid. As much as I hate Junk2, everyone else seems to just forget their history and love them regardless (they are the Chris Brown of car parts), so we'll use them as an example. $700 for an intake manifold. $500 for an exhaust manifold. You already said you have a CAI and exhaust, but since you have no clue what they are, I'm going to assume they're shitty. I'll also give you the benefit of doubt and not count that in the prices. $150 for a high quality intake, $400 bare minimum for a quality exhaust, in case you were curious. You'll also need some better-flowing injectors to support your power goal. On the cheap side, you can go with RDX injectors that will flow well enough for your goals. $200. No, you don't need a fuel pump. No, you don't need a fuel rail. No, you don't need an FPR. No, you sure as **** don't need a grounding kit. Grand total on supporting mods, not counting exhaust and intake that aren't ****: $1400. $1900 if you count exhaust and intake.

That MIGHT get you to 250, if you're lucky. Realistically, you'll also need to bump your compression. That means new pistons and rods. Replacing your pistons and rods would also include new bottom end gaskets which are, once again, NECESSARY, main studs, which would be EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to upgrade if you actually want to rev the engine out to what we've already talked about making the head capable of, as well as bearings that you would, quite frankly, be ******* STUPID to not replace. $500 for pistons. $400 for rods. $150 for bearings. $100 for main studs. Grand total bottom end, $1100.

Now comes the part where I add it all up for you. $2200 for the valvetrain. $1400 supporting mods. $1100 for bottom end. $4700 for your power goals. Oh, and there's one big thing I left out. Machine work and supplies! Fluids alone (assembly lube, HondaBond, HondaLok, break-in oil, coolant) will run you another $200. Then there's the machine work. That varies by location entirely too much for me to give you a realistic number, but just to put it in perspective, I spent $150 on machine work, and I know people. I also didn't have any serious work done - just basic hone, and checking surfaces for flatness. You're looking at having your head completely re-worked, as well as your engine possibly bored out. There goes another $700.

At this point, your output is now HARD capped at 300 BHP (which will give you a hair over 250WHP), you've wasted over five thousand dollars, and you'll still be out-torqued by a baby in one of those red and yellow plastic cars. Stop thinking about NA. It's a waste of time and money. Get yourself an affordable cast log manifold, a GT28 Disco Potato, some DSM 440's, and a good tune, and enjoy your power with great response for MUCH cheaper than what I just listed off for you.

Considering how many times I've had to write out long-winded **** like this before, y'all are lucky I don't bill by the hour. ****. Put some ******* effort into your own damn build and stop begging for your hand to be held.

civicsirsk

I did not once beg for help hahaha, but considering how mad you got over this and complaining about spending under 6k for a n/a build, you're an American. We don't have a garbage economy, money isn't a problem for me. I said ' Right now my budget is 5k and under ' . I have no problem spending 10k for what I want, it will just take a month to save another 5k. I know I can achieve my goals with a turbo and a good tune for much cheaper, but this is my build, not yours, I don't want F/I. I also stated I want my whp to be from 225 to 250, I'll happily use my car at 225whp. After months of reading on H-T before joining all I have noticed is people will complain whether you're going n/a or f/i. It really put a smile on my face for how ignorant some people are, just because you don't want to spend 10k for just 250whp, doesn't mean I don't either. I asked for help, not your tears.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

You asked for something that is covered in our FAQ sticky. You're a lazy **** who, rather than just doing a MODICUM of searching on your own, came to us, palms out, expecting us to tell you what to do. Not only have I held your hand through exactly what you wanted, I told you exactly how to get there, and instead of saying "thank you", you have decided to get shitty with me. That's not how the world works.

Oh, you were talking Canadian dollars, too. Sorry, I thought you were talking about a currency that actually mattered. Easy to take potshots at another country's economy when your Parliament is getting shot up, isn't it? Thought so. Shut up, sit down, and learn some respect, or get off these forums.

B_Swapped93

K20/24 N/A.... stop messging with b-series engines and "N/A power"

also N/A wise you'd need at least 84x89mm R/S to get into that range of power. did it once... was fun pushed low 240whp/150tq with a 85x89mm 12:1/pro 1's set up(and all the small things mentioned).

civicsirsk

Hahaha yes our currency doesn't matter, just about as much as your guys' education. And yes it is easy to take those potshots, especially when your country thinks they can take over whatever land they want and force other countries to assimilate and take natural resources, do you even know what's going on in Africa? Red Cross is being kicked out of all these places because they are giving out ebola like no tomorrow, but guess what country already came out with a vaccine and is almost done human trials? Canada, and we don't even have a case in this country. But I do thank you for helping me and telling me how to get there, I really do appreciate it. But do not worry about the how much will be spent, this car will be with me for a long time like I said.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

How about this. Before you go making even more of a ******* joke out of yourself, go fall into the hole that is All Motor/Naturally Aspirated, and get lost. You're a waste of bandwidth.

civicsirsk

Can you tell me a little bit more about your old set up? And I have thought about doing a k20 swap, some people around here are selling their k20's for $2000 with wiring. What would be some good prices for the k20/24's?

purgat0ry

iTrader: (3)

Really dude?
Hows this stuff even necessary?

Troll thread is successful, now go home.

civicsirsk

It also wasn't nevessary to bring up the parliament being shot up or saying our current doesn't matter

purgat0ry

iTrader: (3)

Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone.
Calm down or quit it, either way, it's not necessary.

Tech wise: Your goals are dumb, but... do whatever you want.

civicsirsk

I'm sorry for being a snob, not the way I wanted to start out in the forum. But you have opened my eyes to look into f/I. Tell me more about it, what brands to use, what its like maintaining, what I can push for whp with stock internals( I've heard mixed and read mixed answers, from 220whp to 300whp ), and should I be looking at rebuilding my motor since it is at 190,000km?

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

On a stock B16A2, properly tuned, you could easily and safely see 300 whp with a basic cast manifold, a GT2860RS, some DSM 440's, and a basic Neptune tune. The manifold would cost you ~$200, the turbo would cost anywhere from $500 to $1500, have a downpipe fabbed by a local exhaust shop for $100-$150, or pay $200 for one pre-made, and the injectors can be had for $150. Intercooler piping and intercooler can be had for <$200.

$1700 for your basic turbo kit, with room to grow if you want to. More power, and a LOT less work, for a lot less money. If you want more power later, put some forged internals in (the block work I mentioned earlier) and you can push it to 400, once again with a good tune. You're still within the range of not needing aftermarket sleeves, but WELL beyond what an N/A B16 could possibly do while still being streetable.

The only other things you'd need, you would need regardless of power source. Clutch will cost ~$300. Resurface your stock flywheel for $50, instead of spending $150 on a new one like you would with an NA build, so save $100 there. Tuning varies by location, but there are three extremely capable tuners within a 2 1/2 hour drive of me that all do a combination (street and dyno) tune for ~$500 on Neptune.

Something else to keep in mind is your transmission - yes, you have short gears that are great for acceleration, but assuming you have the stock transmission, you also have an open differential. Get rid of that garbage, and get yourself an LSD/ATB. ~$1k for a Quaife aftermarket, $700 for a Synchrotech unit, plus install costs for either of those, or ~$1200-$1500 for an OEM ITR/CTR transmission in good shape (if you can find one). Power is useless if you're still a one-wheel-wonder.

190kkm is a drop in the bucket. As long as you don't have any leaks or burns, I wouldn't even begin to think about a rebuild yet.

civicsirsk

Basic turbo is what I think I'm going to do for now, see how I like the power. I'm not looking to build the fastest car, just a bit more power than what I have. I already found a lsd tranny from a type R, 180,000km, can pick it up for $275. So will that, plus lighter flywheel, injectors, turbo, downpipe, manifold, intercooler, intercooler piping and a hondata plus a good tune be enough?

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Of course, just as I start talking you into turbo, some mod moves this to AM/NA

Yep. Well, minus the light flywheel. You won't need that. Other than that, you have the basic gist of it. You should also check out the FAQ sticky in the F/I section - it'll cover all of this stuff for you. It's very basic information.

civicsirsk

Is there any brands I should be looking at in general? I will go to my local shop to get the piping and wastegate done. Should be picking up the lsd tranny this weekend, is $250 a good price for the tranny with 180kkm? And how is the Neptune tune? I think I will have to use Hondata as the only place that tunes and dynos within 2 hours of home only tune Hondata's, I will call and ask if they can do Neptune if you recommend it. Sorry for all these noob questions but this will be my first ever F/I build,really excited to join the world of boost. Hopefully it stays reliable!

93egSLEEPER

That escalated quickly. OP you need to get a plan and some goals. You have jumped on the bandwagon for 3 totally different builds

civicsirsk

Decided to go with the turbo setup. My goals are to be able to be from 275 to 300whp. I know I jumped on the bandwagon, my mind changes like the weather :S. But after doing some research, f/i is the route I will be taking, just worried about getting a good tune and what brands to use. I've read the FAQs about the basic turbo info and now I've got the other info I needed on what I need. I will be sure to have my goals set for sure in my future posts

93egSLEEPER

You should ask to have this moved to the FI forum if you are set on boost. MUCH more help will come from there. If you would like it moved feel free to hit the triangle w/ the exclamation point in it on my post to catch the eye of a moderator who can move it.
Good luck

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

If your local tuners are more comfortable with Hondata, stick with that. My guys are more comfortable with Neptune, so that's what I go with. Just let your tuner do their work on whatever they're best on.

Reliability is all in parts quality, maintenance, and a solid tune. You can have a reliable high compression motor, or an equally reliable F/I motor, as long as you spend the right money in the right places. Obviously you wouldn't skimp on your turbo, but there's nothing wrong with saving money by buying cheap intercooler piping, or spending $130 on a cast log manifold instead of $900 of a fancy ramhorn.

DC_Legacy

Goes without saying that NotARacist is right when it comes to the time/money milking 250 whp out of a B16 with no power adder....**** Omniman had a hell of a time getting 200 WHP from a B16 ....

Not to anger any of the NA'ers because I started out here years back when I had a high comp LS/VTEC... but the reality for many is that for a power goal that high in the sub 2.0L range is merely an expensive way to go slow in the Honda world and can still be pricey for those running B20's, F20B's, H22/23's.....prob easiest achieved by the K series crowd when the manifold see's nothing but vacuum