Civic 1.8

I have a friend who builds a lot of these engines and 3 of them have dropped valves btween the 3-4 shift at the track to date. Iknow that he doesnt set up his own heads but he does clay the engines. Each engine was broken in on the dyno with no issues. All 3 cars have made several passes at the track after the dyno, but a coupel weeks later they poped. All have done the same thing. this has been over time and not an all of a sudden issue, so I am not trying to blame the guy. Is this an engine build issue or is this the chance you take racing the cars? What else can cause this issue to happen? all 3 heads had aftermarket valves, springs and retainers.

thanks for the help

Civic 1.8

oh yeah, they all wer different drivers who did not missshift.

DonF

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Civic 1.8 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">oh yeah, they all wer different drivers who did not missshift.</TD></TR></TABLE> How do you know that, did you look at the DataAc.

Civic 1.8

well i saw videos of each pass. you can clearly hear the gear changes and in 2 of the cases the engine just decelerates at the top of the track. Talking to the drivers they all said the shift between 3-4 was smooth, then the car just died. the 3 rd car stopped on the track check for oil and restarted driving off on 3 cylinders.

All I can ask is for a reasonable explanation. Donf are you suggesting that miss shift is the only way to drop valves?

DA_JDM

my motor did the same...dyno break in...all good...3 weekend of racing all good...3 week after my last drag racing weekend i dropped some valve at the end of 3rd gear

DonF

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Civic 1.8 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well i saw videos of each pass. you can clearly hear the gear changes and in 2 of the cases the engine just decelerates at the top of the track. Talking to the drivers they all said the shift between 3-4 was smooth, then the car just died. the 3 rd car stopped on the track check for oil and restarted driving off on 3 cylinders.

All I can ask is for a reasonable explanation. Donf are you suggesting that miss shift is the only way to drop valves?</TD></TR></TABLE> No, if the valve to valve or valve to piston is to close they will hit. Over-reving will do it also. The wrong spring for the cam will do it also.

b19coupe

One or two motors drop a valve and I would take a closer look at my engine builder. Three motors is a long shot for coincidence.

Civic 1.8

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b19coupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One or two motors drop a valve and I would take a closer look at my engine builder. Three motors is a long shot for coincidence.</TD></TR></TABLE>

well he is an exceptional engine builder, and has built way more engines and only 3 have failed this way so I dont want to accuse him yet. I was wondering more about possible causes. I have searched and see that it is very common, just no explanation. appreciate the help.

Civic 1.8

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DonF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> No, if the valve to valve or valve to piston is to close they will hit. Over-reving will do it also. The wrong spring for the cam will do it also. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thankyou. I figured the measurements would be a factor, but I am concerned that it didn't happen on any dyno or previous passes. Wouldnt somethng like this show up right away?

Civic 1.8

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DA_JDM &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">my motor did the same...dyno break in...all good...3 weekend of racing all good...3 week after my last drag racing weekend i dropped some valve at the end of 3rd gear </TD></TR></TABLE>

Did you determine a cause?

DA_JDM

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Civic 1.8 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Did you determine a cause?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Up to now its been 3 months and no i didnt find an answer...my builder said my motor didnt failed on the dyno so its not his falt...and its all part of racing...but i know i had my valve adjust 1 week before all this...did you determine a possible cause???

Civic 1.8

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DA_JDM &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Up to now its been 3 months and no i didnt find an answer...my builder said my motor didnt failed on the dyno so its not his falt...and its all part of racing...but i know i had my valve adjust 1 week before all this...did you determine a possible cause???</TD></TR></TABLE>

the cars were not mine, but like I said this has happened to 3 cars over a period of a year, so not sure what to think yet. The reason why I am concerend is on of the guys is my good friend and has no money to spend rebuilding. If it was an egine build issue, I know the builder will be held accountable. I dont know all of the specifics on the builds, just trying to get an explanation of what could be a cause.

BeniRacing

Well possible reasons are over-rev and lack of oil to the head. If head gets hot it will cause the retainers to get brittle over time and will crack. Then you know what happens next.

Chris Tune

the usual cause is a moron behind the wrenches... but parts failure its kinda uncommon.

HEAD

using stock valvelocks with a ti retainer is the leading cause from what we have seen...the valve will pull through the retainer, piston hits the valve and depending on manufacture the valve will break and destroy what ever is in it's path. Certain manufactures are more prone to the issue then others because a few actually sell a lock..careful parts selection with a experienced engine builder can go a long way.

when in doubt we use a Manley valvelock in anything other then Ferrea retainers(Ferrea has there own design of lock and retainer that will not work with anything else) Because the Manley lock is so close to the stock lock.

Remember that the stock lock is a stamped steel piece and put that in your prescision made ti retainer can cause issues..buy a prescision made keeper as well.

Civic 1.8

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris Tune &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the usual cause is a moron behind the wrenches... but parts failure its kinda uncommon.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would like a specific explanation. Why would it be a builder's fault? I mean why didn't an issue show up sooner if it was a build screw-up?

AccordSleeperZzZ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HEAD &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">using stock valvelocks with a ti retainer is the leading cause from what we have seen...the valve will pull through the retainer, piston hits the valve and depending on manufacture the valve will break and destroy what ever is in it's path. Certain manufactures are more prone to the issue then others because a few actually sell a lock..careful parts selection with a experienced engine builder can go a long way.

when in doubt we use a Manley valvelock in anything other then Ferrea retainers(Ferrea has there own design of lock and retainer that will not work with anything else) Because the Manley lock is so close to the stock lock.

Remember that the stock lock is a stamped steel piece and put that in your prescision made ti retainer can cause issues..buy a prescision made keeper as well.</TD></TR></TABLE>

good info

i was looking through manley's website. thats some good stuff! my question is this. if one was say running those notorious titanium retainers and looking to upgrade the valve locks - so as not to suffer the same, most unfortunate fate of the OP's friend - would you look at the machined titanium ones or would the steel ones do?

if that was indeed a thread-jack, i apologize. i thought it was a relavent question to ask considering the thread's topic.

HEAD

they do not make a ti lock..only steel. So you only have one choice.

Chris Tune

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HEAD &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">careful parts selection with a experienced engine builder can go a long way.

</TD></TR></TABLE><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris Tune &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the usual cause is a moron behind the wrenches...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

a REAL experienced engine builder should call you on bad component selection

AccordSleeperZzZ

odd...



not saying you're wrong. just that perhaps i misunderstand. do they just mean these are for use with titanium retainers? or there's just not an application for honda engines?

on meif i'm just plain retarded, and don't understand.

Furyof4

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AccordSleeperZzZ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">odd...



not saying you're wrong. just that perhaps i misunderstand. do they just mean these are for use with titanium retainers? or there's just not an application for honda engines?

on meif i'm just plain retarded, and don't understand.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Bvtec's use 5.5mm valve stems, those are for 7mm+.

AccordSleeperZzZ

ahh.

thanks for enlightening me.

BIGTUNA

Stock valves and dual valveprings in those 3 motors?