brokenojoke

****Updated 7-8-08 Goto 2'nd page, 37'th post for updated dyno charts.****

This is after a local tuner tuned it on dyno with 91 octane. I'm at 5,250 elevation.

B16a w/ CTR cams/pistons
mugen head gasket
neither, head or deck has been milled
ITR intake mani with 65mm STR T/B
hytech knock off header
2.5 inch exhaust (no cat) with single stage flow master
P&P head
Flat Face REV valves with their titanium retainers and dual springs
MSD 6a and MSD coil
Cam Gears are set to zero




There is something very wrong with this motor, but I can't figure it out.

Compression test blows 230, 230, 230 232 and leakdown is perfect on all 4


Look how rough it gets up top, and that's with smoothing. It looks like it wants to jump up to 165ish-175ish when vtec first opens, then just drops off. I figured this motor would make 180 at least with some good tuning.

I ditched the MSD ignition and went back to stock just after this dyno session. Going back next week to see if we can see if that helped. Sure feels better according to the butt dyno, but I think I'm just being optimistic.

Modified by brokenojoke at 2:26 AM 7/8/2008


Modified by brokenojoke at 2:39 AM 7/8/2008

2LEM1

iTrader: (1)

yuk, I really don't know what to point at. I would blame the IM and TB but 65mm and an ITR mani should flow better than that. So then I would blame the exhaust, but 2.5" with no cat and a hytech replica would support WAY more power than you are making. You certainly aren't over-cammed since vtec doesn't dip, the drop off after 6300 makes me think flow.. but you are nowhere near maxing out the stock head. I'm actually stumped myself. The ignition is to blame for the spikey graph I think but your power is choking off somewhere. GL man.

4g hatch

ditching the msd could clean it up. i would think around 165-170whp with those cams. you may pick up a few more with adj. cam gears. also usually vtec likes to be around 4800-5000 on ''r'' cams,that may smooth out that hump. also is the header a big tube or standard?

Hybrid96EK

Could also have something to do with the rediculously high compression and 91 octane fuel. You do know your CORRECT compression with those pistons, right? I wouldn't be surprised one bit if you were seeing some detonation up top.

Good move on ditching the MSD however. There is nothing wrong with the stock Honda ignition system. Its been shown to support 500+whp many times. Why mess with it?

Phil M

Who ported the head? If someone did the typical port-hog job then you will lose torque everywhere on that b16. Looks like all of your mods support power but the ports might be suspect....
Also, were the cams dialed in?

acydphryck

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2LEM1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

yuk, I really don't know what to point at. I would blame the IM and TB but 65mm and an ITR mani should flow better than that. So then I would blame the exhaust, but 2.5" with no cat and a hytech replica would support WAY more power than you are making. You certainly aren't over-cammed since vtec doesn't dip, the drop off after 6300 makes me think flow.. but you are nowhere near maxing out the stock head. I'm actually stumped myself. The ignition is to blame for the spikey graph I think but your power is choking off somewhere. GL man.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 4g hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ditching the msd could clean it up. i would think around 165-170whp with those cams. you may pick up a few more with adj. cam gears. also usually vtec likes to be around 4800-5000 on ''r'' cams,that may smooth out that hump. also is the header a big tube or standard? </TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid96EK &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Could also have something to do with the rediculously high compression and 91 octane fuel. You do know your CORRECT compression with those pistons, right? I wouldn't be surprised one bit if you were seeing some detonation up top.

Good move on ditching the MSD however. There is nothing wrong with the stock Honda ignition system. Its been shown to support 500+whp many times. Why mess with it?</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Phil M &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Who ported the head? If someone did the typical port-hog job then you will lose torque everywhere on that b16. Looks like all of your mods support power but the ports might be suspect....
Also, were the cams dialed in? </TD></TR></TABLE>

wow...4 responses...all useless. not once did they ever ask what kind of engine management program you're using. do you even have an after market fuel pump? fuel pressure regulator and fuel pressure gauge? you know you're static compression ratio is about 12.3:1 with those CTR pistons right?? kinda useless to post up a dyno sheet without letting us know what kind of engine management your'e using (if any at all)...that would help instead of just letting us know about the MSD ignition, elevation level, bolt-ons, machine work...etc.,

do you know if your ECU is chipped?? if you don't have an engine management system, i suggest getting either hondata or crome...hope that helps out.

brokenojoke

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Phil M &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Who ported the head? If someone did the typical port-hog job then you will lose torque everywhere on that b16. Looks like all of your mods support power but the ports might be suspect....
Also, were the cams dialed in? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Head was purchased already built, but with no miles. It was sent to portflo according to seller.... this was three years ago though. The intake side looked to be ported a lot compared to other portflo heads I've seen for B16.

The Cams were not dialed in. Tuner moved em around in small incraments, but it didn't seem to make a difference according to him, so he left them at zero.

Looks like I may be getting a new head soon and save this one for a turbo setup. I'll have it flo-benched after this season and see what's up.

[QUOTE= also is the header a big tube or standard? [/QUOTE]

standard

Phil M

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by acydphryck &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
wow...4 responses...all useless. not once did they ever ask what kind of engine management program you're using. do you even have an after market fuel pump? fuel pressure regulator and fuel pressure gauge? you know you're static compression ratio is about 12.3:1 with those CTR pistons right?? kinda useless to post up a dyno sheet without letting us know what kind of engine management your'e using (if any at all)...that would help instead of just letting us know about the MSD ignition, elevation level, bolt-ons, machine work...etc.,

do you know if your ECU is chipped?? if you don't have an engine management system, i suggest getting either hondata or crome...hope that helps out.</TD></TR></TABLE>

How are all of our responses useless oh "king of over-hyped over-pimped-dyno chart queen?" Huh? We will assume that since he paid for tuning that the fuel was dialed in since he didn't give us an a-f chart. He also said it was TUNED not just run off of a chip. The engine management program has dick to do with the final outcome since most software gets the job done by tuning a/f and ignition. Telling us about his bolt ons ect tells us a whole hell of a lot along with his compression test results. Go blow your useless hot air else-where.

brokenojoke

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by acydphryck &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


wow...4 responses...all useless. not once did they ever ask what kind of engine management program you're using. do you even have an after market fuel pump? fuel pressure regulator and fuel pressure gauge? you know you're static compression ratio is about 12.3:1 with those CTR pistons right?? kinda useless to post up a dyno sheet without letting us know what kind of engine management your'e using (if any at all)...that would help instead of just letting us know about the MSD ignition, elevation level, bolt-ons, machine work...etc.,

do you know if your ECU is chipped?? if you don't have an engine management
system, i suggest getting either hondata or crome...hope that helps out.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hondata S300 with PLX wideband for street tuning.

I hear so many different opinions about my Compression. According to some it's 10.8 with the pistons, and 11.0 with the headgasket figured in. Now you're saying 12.3...... Becasue I'm at altitute, doesn't that lower compression?

Fuel pump and filter are stock. I have STR fuel rail and AEM adjustable regulator. Pressure is set to 38. I do have fuel pressure gauge. I set fuel pressure according to hondatas site and did it while car is not running. Just kept priming fuel system untill she was stuck at 38. Stock 240cc injectors.

4g hatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by acydphryck &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

wow...4 responses...all useless. not once did they ever ask what kind of engine management program you're using. do you even have an after market fuel pump? fuel pressure regulator and fuel pressure gauge? you know you're static compression ratio is about 12.3:1 with those CTR pistons right?? kinda useless to post up a dyno sheet without letting us know what kind of engine management your'e using (if any at all)...that would help instead of just letting us know about the MSD ignition, elevation level, bolt-ons, machine work...etc.,

do you know if your ECU is chipped?? if you don't have an engine management system, i suggest getting either hondata or crome...hope that helps out.</TD></TR></TABLE>

why the hell would you need a aftermarket fuel pump for a mild b16. also why the hell would you need a adj.fuel pressure regulator when at that level his injectors arent maxed out and you can adjust fuel in the tuning software,which also makes the gauge useless.
also we've seen your dyno for a year or more,but we've never seen a timeslip

goforbroke

Why did you only rev the motor to 7600-7700rpm, thats where stock b16 cams stop making power, not CTR's.

brokenojoke

If the TDC mark on the crank is even with the mark on timing belt cover, is this how the cams should look?

I have to advance my distributor all the way to max to get the S300 "set timing" feature to show I'm at 16*. Here is how the cams are situated. Looks correct to me, but you guys check my work please.

brokenojoke

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by goforbroke &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why did you only rev the motor to 7600-7700rpm, thats where stock b16 cams stop making power, not CTR's.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It was breaking up so bad I didn't want to risk it. I figured something had to be wrong so I wanted some more tinker time before I take it any higher.

Phil M

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 4g hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

why the hell would you need a aftermarket fuel pump for a mild b16. also why the hell would you need a adj.fuel pressure regulator when at that level his injectors arent maxed out and you can adjust fuel in the tuning software,which also makes the gauge useless.
also we've seen your dyno for a year or more,but we've never seen a timeslip </TD></TR></TABLE>

Because his dyno graph is over-hyped BULLSHIT.

4dooritr

it all looks ok, little choppy from the ignition.. but your over 5k elevation.. live with it

has anyone ever drove their car upto the mountains and it felt like you lost 20-30 hp?

UncleD

iTrader: (2)

I would be VERY curious to see what kind of improvements your motor would make with a Toda header, or even a JG/2.5 collector. Why the long-tube for a 1-6??

Hybrid96EK

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by brokenojoke &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I hear so many different opinions about my Compression. According to some it's 10.8 with the pistons, and 11.0 with the headgasket figured in. Now you're saying 12.3...... Becasue I'm at altitute, doesn't that lower compression? </TD></TR></TABLE>

You hear so many options because people input wrong figures into these online compression calculators and therefore get wrong "answers" from them. The R pistons actually come OUT OF THE HOLE on a B16/B17. This changes the stock piston to deck height. Most of the calculators will not figure this in. Try c-speed... It leaves it at the stock -.030, at least it used to, and this is not correct. This prompted a friend of mine to come up with his own calculator which actually takes this into account.

http://www.zealautowerks.com

This will account for the change in compression height. Use the two layer option for the Mugen headgasket since I belive that is all they are and you will see your actual compression ratio. Its quite a bit higher then 10.8:1.

brokenojoke

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clean rice &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would be VERY curious to see what kind of improvements your motor would make with a Toda header, or even a JG/2.5 collector. Why the long-tube for a 1-6??</TD></TR></TABLE>

It was a vast improvement over usdm 5zigen with 2 inch collector. Price was right. Made about 5 more from 4,500 up. If I knew the fit was this bad for my application though(EF chassis, used for road racing), I would have just saved the money and put it toward the Toda right away. I'll be getting the Toda over the winter.

I'll bring this thread back to life when I do and post up another dyno chart.

UncleD

iTrader: (2)

Anything is gonna make power over a 5Zigen. I guess what I'm sayin is, when you buy stuff because "price was right," don't complain about the results. As with anything else, you get what you pay for.

555auto

nice

koczeka

rev higher and listen to clean rice regarding to the header

FST GSR 1

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 4dooritr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it all looks ok, little choppy from the ignition.</TD></TR></TABLE>The MSD ignition has absolutely nothing to do with that graph looking like that. I don't disagree there is no need for an MSD box on that, I'd keep the MSD coil though.

.CUBISH.

small tube or big tube header?

MikeySpec

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by brokenojoke &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It was breaking up so bad I didn't want to risk it. I figured something had to be wrong so I wanted some more tinker time before I take it any higher.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FST GSR 1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The MSD ignition has absolutely nothing to do with that graph looking like that. I don't disagree there is no need for an MSD box on that, I'd keep the MSD coil though. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Even if he says he hears it breaking up in the high rpm's? I've dealt with quite a few cases where faulty msd boxes and components have caused erratic ignition output. Try an all oem distributor and look over your plugs to figure out your misfire issue first before moving forward on anything else.

brokenojoke

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .CUBISH. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">small tube or big tube header?</TD></TR></TABLE>

small