creizlein

I have a N/A B16a2 with the following bolt-on mods already on: 421 header+2.5 catback, 70mm TB and Sk2 Pro Intake manifold, Powerchamber intake
So far the Engine was doing great, it did 186hp on the Dyno, and i was running a STOCK ECU

I installed Sk2 Tuner Series Stage 1 cams with new cam gears as well, everything runs flawesly, despite the fact i wasnt able to properly degree the cams due the fact that i am not able to lock vtec with my AirCompressor for more than 20-30 seconds, just because its not powerfull enough.
Nevertheless I checked everything twice, set the valve lash to .007" and .008" as Sk2 spec and it ran smootly, STILL with the Stock ECU

Now the problem i am facing is that on the Dyno it did a peak of 189hp but across the powerband there is no gain but a loss of 3-7hp all around, until 7500rpm , then it goes up just like the old cams.
So basically i made a downgrade instead of an upgrade.

Question is, could this be due the fact i just need a new ECU for this specific setup (too many mods already)
Or is it for the fact that the cams might not be perfectly degreed?
Because I understand that with a proper new ecu map i might gain more, that is reasonable, but I am wondering if i should see this power-loss or not.

Also keep in mind that both of the cam gears are at 0° , i did not move them to see if i get any gain

Any feedback?
Thanks.

2LEM1

iTrader: (1)

Tune the car.

Adding more air requires more fuel, and if you stay with your stock ECU you'll be running lean, and that's how you detonate and blow up motors.

Tune the car ASAP.

1999 Civic Si

I agree with 2LEM1, need to get some form of a tunable ecu, Hondata, Neptune, etc... and get it tuned. I personally have a b16a2 build with similar specs to what you listed, including the same camshafts (which I have had degreed at 0 exhaust and +1 intake, this could change once I get it on a dyno). I am waiting for my tuner to be free to retune my car for the new camshafts and I am currently rocking the stock ecu until then. I haven't taken it over 4k rpms yet because I am on the stock ecu, even just putting around (only drive it every so often) on the stock ecu my wideband is all over the place. I can only imagine how bad it is up around factory redline.

creizlein

Agreed that the next step is going to be 101% a new ecu, hondata most likely, but i am just concerned by the fact it dropped its numbers?
But well, as you mentioned, it could be the fact that i just added too much air? I have be told that the issue was the car running rich not lean, at least that was what the dyno wideband was showing
(i currently do not have the wideband fixed to double check on a daily run)

1999 Civic Si

Well driving around just babying it in my car the wideband hits around 15-16 (which isn't necessarily bad, I can compare numbers once my car is tuned) around 4k rpms on the stock ecu, I would imagine it would only get worse if I went above that. While cruising at say 45mph in 5th it is around 14.

But I do see the wideband go more to the lean side most of the time I am on the throttle. Which wasn't quite the case on my old cam set up and tune. I am not a tuner, I only log data from time to time and pay attention to my wideband. I am sure someone with more knowledge on this could be more helpful on the power numbers you made.

creizlein

I will need to see what the wideband says on normal driving/WOT operations, its a good check, time to stop avoiding it and buy one.
I guess my fear (and frustration) comes due the fact I wasnt able to proper degree the cams, and cant accept the fact that even if I would have degree them the result would have been the same, or that a Tuner Stage1 dont even need to adjust the cam gears (on a stock engine). I guess thats what Im looking for... Just to lazy to remove the whole rockerarms to lock vtec and double check just to find out that i dont even have to move 1 mark the gears...

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I've never had a wideband for any of this. These are a drop-in camshaft that don't need to be degreed like the Pro1 series,, but do require something outside of a stock ECU. You're looking at the effect of running lean, not the cause of it. The stock ECU is used to running on certain valve timing events. When you change that camshaft and do nothing to compensate for the change in ignition timing with better fuel trim, you're going to run lean. Having a wideband without tuning anything won't do you any good; just looking at a pretty number. 2LEM1 is correct. check your install and for goodness sake, get rid of the stock ECU as it sits or you will eventually damage the car..

Save the wideband money and go to the tuner WHO ALREADY HAS ONE!

ontariorider

I would get the car tuned asap, no sense in modding a motor when you arnt going to try and pull all the potential out of it.

JRCivic1

How is it that this car isn't already really LEAN under wide open throttle conditions ??? The factory ECU is programmed to run an engine that makes 160 flywheel HP... and you are claiming nearly 30 MORE than this and you haven't specified if your quoted HP number is at the flywheel or at the tires, so if it is the latter, the car should be even more lean. The OE ECU has no ability to compensate for the bolt-on products you have already installed... let alone a set of camshafts that completely change how the engine breathes. There must be some other type of global fuel compensation such as an adjustable fuel pressure regulator... otherwise, the dyno tuner should have stopped the pull when he saw how lean the car was.

As everyone else has said here... get it tuned before you break it.

creizlein

As said before, we ran a dyno test with the wideband and it was not lean at all, it dropped to 12.7/12.8 on the top rpms, around 13.3/13.5 on the mid range if I recall correctly, (that isnt too lean at all, is it?)
But again this was NOT with the Stage1 cams, it was prior it, I did not run the wideband on the later dyno run.

Agreed that a proper Tune with ecu will be the way to go, but as i also mentioned early my concer was related to the way i wasnt able to degree the cams (and not sure if I would have done i would have found any need to change the cam gears degree) and the fact that after Stage1 cams the car did less power. Despite the fact that i full understand the need of a proper new fuel map.

Nevertheless thanks everyone for the good feedback, Bottom line is to get a new ecu cappable ot being re-programmed (mine isnt) but the internal doubt of knowing how much difference the Stage1 cams have made or not will always be there.

creizlein

Oh yeah, totally agree with you there, I ment that use a wideband just to know exactly how much lean i am running, and then act accordly, ie, with a new ecu and proper tune

You are making a lot of asumptions there, you would be schocked to know how much that differ in another small countries were there is little to none knowledge to this... dont always asume that

wunfstgsr

No need to degree them get a hondata ems and retune the motor and adjust the cam gears or use those preset tings someone shared.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Even then... You can't do anything but scare yourself and shut the car off when you don't know what the numbers mean at a particular point in time.



You've given us no choice but to presume. You don't have a country of origin or location in the screenname in the left corner (*Hint*). And there are other ways to calculate by way of a tuned "sniffer". Older school method, but even my tuner still uses one, and he's spot on. (located several hours away from me and worth every dollar. )

If the people you're working with don't have the correct equipment, then it may be time for you to learn.

creizlein

Can you provide more details on "those preset things" you mention?
The idea is to adjust the cam gears on dyno, but yet thats something to learn and play with, so any feedback is welcome.

That is the Idea, learn and then try to do it myself, thats why I am looking for feedback and comments on my situation and see how I can improve. Hondata is on the way so that will be another chapter. Thanks !

creizlein

I have been watching the narrowband O2 signal for the last few days and on idle it oscilates properly (from 0 to 1v) and during WOT its definitevely always rich,
I know narrowband will never tell much except lean/reach endpoints, and not anything near a proper AFR, but if the car was so lean as everyone is saying wouldnt the O2 sensor detect that?
Just ciruous...

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Not really. It would either throw a code or simply add fuel on its own to correct it quickly as much as it can.

The car is running lean for what it's making with that camshaft. It's not necessarily immediately destructive , but it's not a good idea to keep it like that without proper tuning, as you won't reap any benefit from the Camshaft's profile. For that, you might as well put OEM GS-Rs back in and call it a day.

B20VtecVillain

No one is saying your car is running 15:1 lean at WOT but it could very well be 13.8:1-14:1 which is still bad for your engine and overall performance. You can't determine anything for your WOT based on a narrowband O2 sensor. All that component is meant to do is adjust cruise AFR under low load for fuel economy purposes. As soon as you go WOT under load with a stock ecu it switches to preset fuel and timing tables which are developed for stock P30 components. You not longer have many of the stock P30 components, most importantly the stock P30 cam profile which is essentially the mechanical brain to your ecu's electronic brain. How you would expect a stock ecu to run your car properly/ideally with bolt ons let alone a camshaft upgrade is beyond me. Anytime you add something as "simple" as just a header you should be tuning to take advantage of it. Air/fuel is only one small part of the equation, not the be all end all. Not trying to be a dick, but You posted here obviously to ask for advice so we're giving it to you, what you need to do is tune the car. Skunk2 Tuner cams like a good bit of overlap, but that's mainly for the Tuner 2&3 profile. Dyno numbers aren't the be all end all either, but I would like to know what correction factor was used as well as see the dyno graph of this 186whp run also. Not only would it be helpful to see what your curve was doing with the cams, it also seems that you are near maxing out your stock fuel system if you are making a true 189whp. That is great power for a bolt on TUNED B16 and almost unheard of for a stock ecu bolt on B16, if the dyno is correcting and configured appropriately. Do your engine a favor and stay off the loud pedal until you can tune the car. I really don't want to see your next post be entitled "B16 shortblock needed" If you aren't financially able to afford Hondata or Neptune, even a tune with free software like Crome would benefit you greatly at this point. If there aren't any tuners in your part of the world, there are plenty of E tuners that can help you out with a setup that simple through mail/email. Hell if you get yourself a $50 EPROM burner, a $20 pack of SST chips and a wideband I would be more than happy to help you tune it by email, plus you could tune yourself for the rest of the cars life.

B20VtecVillain

Also, your car may well be running rich and not lean as well. Changing camshafts on a stock ecu is liable to mix all sorts of signals, so it may not be an unsafe lean condition, but could in fact be too rich and therefore performance is also suffering and your risk ring damage from fuel washdown ad other troubles. Lean is not the only condition that can cause issues, bottom line any car that gets modified should be tuned, but one where cams are changed is just a no brainer my friend. Good luck, and I'm serious about being more than happy to help you tune it by email if you get the necessary components. We could have it running 10 times better in a few hours.

creizlein

Thanks for your feedback guys ! , it really help me understand much of the doubts i had, and yes, indeed, thats the whole point of the thread, to get some feedback so no worries about being a dick, you are not
Hondata is on the way tbh, I made the purchase, but again i am just trying to understand all the myths and reactions of the stock ecu (its a P2T, not P30, but i got the point).
I will also install the wideband and measure the proper AFR before even changing the ECU and see exactly how lean (or not) the car is running right now, I also think that will help me a lot to tune it afterwards.

Will post some updates in 2/3 weeks when get it installed.

wunfstgsr

If i would have known you were gonna get a EMS system i would of sold you my hondata s100 obd1 ecu and that would be all you neaded because im boosted now so i will upgrade to S300. But anyway now you can set the car on the dyno and tune the fuel maps and timing and adjust the cams to where the engine makes the most effiecient power. I advise using a well trusted tuner anytime. Some have done 0-ex and +2in or 0-ex and +1in as a start point they like slight overlap with tuner series cams.

creizlein

Here are some updates, and strange ones, or at least not was I was expecting.
I finally got my p28+s300 ecu, and a PLX wideband, this weekend I went ahead and connected the wideband for good, I did not plug nor even try to use the new ecu just yet, but I got surprised with the wideband readings.

During idle, when cold it’s around 13.5-13.8 and when fully warmed it sticks are 14.5-14.6
During cruising and normal driving conditions (no WOT) it’s always moving between 14.2 and 14.8, you never read a 13 or a 15 , it always stay in the 14 range
When in WOT, it usually start at 13 and then start to decrease up to 12.2-12.3, you can see that when vtec kicks in for instance it goes from 12.3 to 13 for a moment and then it decrease back to 12.3-12.2 and stays there

So, correct me if wrong, but aren’t those readings like somewhat perfect or what we are really looking for?
Based on the assumption that the car was running super lean, that doesn’t seem to be right, is it? I would expected to read 14+ all the time

Thoughts?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I take it this was tuned, now that you have the newer hardware, correct?

creizlein

Excuse me? what you mean?
As I stated I did NOT change the ECU or anything, I just plugged the wideband to measure the current, 100% stock P2T ecu.

1999 Civic Si

Honestly those numbers are surprising, considering my set up is very similar and mine gets leaner the higher my rpms are (still waiting for my tuner to be free). One thing I don't recall reading is what injectors are you currently running & what fuel pressure?

Regardless that set up needs to be tuned for optimal power and reliability over the life of the engine. Where did you locate the wideband on the exhaust?

creizlein

That’s exactly my thought, surprising numbers, it would be more encouraging if the reading were leaner, so I could improve it with the s300, but as it is now I am really wondering how much of an improvement would make switching to it.

Injectors are bone stock, 240cc, I only changed gasket kit when swapped the intake manifold, and pressure is stock as well (no way to change it), the fuel regulator and rail are stock, I only added a Grams Fuel Pressure Gauge next to the filter (to measure) and it sits at around 32psi on idle.
The car has a testpipe in replace of the cat, and the wideband is located there, a bit more down of the current narrow band (it wasn’t remove, so it currently have both) and the position is somewhat between 15 and 20deg, so I made sure that the position is correct, or tend to be.