diyer

Ok, first things first, for the curious, why post twice? Well, I posted the questions before but I gave it the wrong post TITLE and wasn't able to edit the title.

First, a few background facts. My Mom is interested in buying a newer car. She currently owns a 1991, 740 Volvo, with 170k. The entire drivetrain is still strong and the engine has good compression (although it needs a head gasket) but I get tired of all the intermittent electrical problems that crop up at the worst times (I also own a Volvo and know about Volvo hell). I used to work on Volkswagens for a living years ago, so, I have a ton of Snap-On tools and work on my own vehicles.

Mom likes the former TL body style better than the latest one, so it will almost for sure be a used Acura she would buy, and since she can't really afford a new one anyway, it is just as well. There were some other vehicles we considered, like the 2006 Hyundai Sonata XL. The Sonata is rated by Consumer Reports as the most reliable vehicle for two years in a row now. What I really like is that the Sonata has a maintenance free timing chain. I have replaced the timing belts myself on other vehicles and it is an involved job, but doable. But the main thing I dislike about newer close tolerance engines with belts is that they are all interference engines and that means big trouble if the belt breaks. The Sonatas downside is that it has no plush, luxurious interior like the Acura, and Mom said she felt the whole ride in her butt.

We also considered the Lexus ES330 and I was wondering if anyone knows why a dealer certified 02 Lexus ES330 is $27k, but a dealer certified 03 Acura TL is $22-$24k? ... yet, if I price out a new Lexus it comes to $35.2k and a new Acura TL comes to $36k + when I try to make them equal on the options. I suppose Lexus just does not depreciate as fast as a Lexus. But this does not make sense to me, I always heard the Acura was the better value. The Lexus comes with everything but they force one option on you, and the Acura needs things added to make it equal in features to the Lexus. At any rate, we still lean toward the Acura TL. We also considered some other vehicles but they were not as reliable or too pricey. But Consumer Reports said the 99-03 TL is jittery at highway speeds, and does not do so good on emergency handling. Of course, Mom would not drive a TL like CR does in their slalom for testing, but I am curious to hear from 99 thru 03 owners about these two aspects?.

After doing some research I discovered that the final drive ratio of some of the 2006 TL's is 4:44. The official specs for TL fuel mileage look good, but I recently talked to a former owner of an 2003 TL and he said he got lousy mileage. So, I got curious and discovered the 4:44 ratio for the 06, and assumed that it might be the same for the 2003 and that would explain the high fuel consumption. Did Acura ever make a higher gear transaxle, say like a 3:33 or 3:54 ? Mom would rather have good mileage at the expense of performance - she does not need performance. This Katrina thing changed fuel costs forever. Sad to say, fuel is an unregulated industry, they look for any excuse to gouge people (one oil company boasted 600 billlion in record profits).

... So, anyone know which MY has the highest gear ratio (lowest in numbers) ?

Other questions are:
Can TL's use regular gas, 87 octane, without other problems besides lack of performance?
What brand ECM (referring to the Ignition and Fuel Injection electronic control modules, i.e., the main computers in the vehicle) does the TL use?
Is there one ECM? two? or more, like the BMW 700 series has and is always in the shops?
Does the V6 TL have 4 O2 sensors, two CATS, and three or four mufflers?

I see a big price difference between dealer certified cars, private sellers, and non-certified roadside small car dealer lots (the kind with a 30 day warranty). I am curious to know how a small car dealer can sell a TL for $8k less than an Acura dealer, even if there is no warranty. Some of these TL's look very tempting on paper. So, the question is, are those $8k less Acura's flawed? ... Lemons? ... Dealer tested, rejected, and sold at auction? ... Does the TL suffer a flaw that cannot be easily detected, like cylinder head damage - the kind that unscrupulous sellers add block sealers to?

Any other recommendations or things I need to know about TL's?

diyer

cannan

I'm selling my 2002 Acura TL Type-S for $19,500..are you the same person that responded to my post on Acura-TL?

Can TL's use regular gas, 87 octane, without other problems besides lack of performance?
Probably but I wouldn't do it. You can 89 but I wouldn't push the pedal to much

What brand ECM (referring to the Ignition and Fuel Injection electronic control modules, i.e., the main computers in the vehicle) does the TL use?
No Clue
Is there one ECM? two? or more, like the BMW 700 series has and is always in the shops?
No Clue

Does the V6 TL have 4 O2 sensors, two CATS, and three or four mufflers?
Believe so

I see a big price difference between dealer certified cars, private sellers, and non-certified roadside small car dealer lots (the kind with a 30 day warranty). I am curious to know how a small car dealer can sell a TL for $8k less than an Acura dealer, even if there is no warranty. Some of these TL's look very tempting on paper. So, the question is, are those $8k less Acura's flawed? ... Lemons? ... Dealer tested, rejected, and sold at auction? ... Does the TL suffer a flaw that cannot be easily detected, like cylinder head damage - the kind that unscrupulous sellers add block sealers to?

I personally believe that most used 02-03 TL's come through the Honda Re-Marketing program (lease) or dealer auctions if not trade in. The difference in price is because a big name dealer can charge $$ because people trust the name and don't always care about price. They think the dealership gets the best cars, etc., etc. Also dealerships buy the same cars as the "small guys" the difference is the dealership has access to cheap parts and labor so they fix and prep the cars alot better. New tires, good detailing, fix easy flaws, etc.. Remember dealerships usually make the most money on financing and the price of used cars. Ex.)They get a 03 TL-S with 50k for $16,500 at the auction, put $2,500 into fixing things and re-sell for 22,500 The "small" dealerships usually just wash and stick the car on the lot and sell it almost the same condition they got it from the auction. That is my personal perception and I'm sure others have their's as well. I bought mine from a small dealership with ties to the big dealership, if that makes any sense.

The only problem MAJOR is the transmission but its covered 7 years/100,00 miles. So if you are looking to buy a 00-03 TL you already know about the transmission and you can't really worry about it. There is really nothing you can do.

cannan

Also if your mom is looking for gas mileage over peformance why even think about a TL. I get about 19 city and really good highway never clocked it though. The TL isn't a gas saver by any means, should look for a 4 door Civic or Toyota Corolla for saving gas. No V-6 car is going to be that great on gas. You mention the Hyundai Sonata but I don't see that in a class with the TL. The Sonata is a A-B type car with a little more power. The TL has style, class, power and other things.

diyer

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda-tech is fading &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I'm selling my 2002 Acura TL Type-S for $19,500..are you the same person that responded to my post on Acura-TL? ...

NO.

[QUOTE=Honda-Tech Is Fading] Also if your Mom is looking for gas mileage over performance why even think about a TL?</TD></TR></TABLE>...

Well, I started my research from a "reliability" perspective first and foremost, and then 2nd, 3rd, etc., other issues, for my Mom, not for me or anyone else, keep that in mind. So, that's is where the TL came in. The best I can explain is like this. My Mom is under the illusion that she can get everything she wants in a car and buy it for $5-$7 thousand, like forty years ago. When she was young, in her world the top car was the Cadillac. She is also ignorant of certain present laws of physics and engineering principles. For example, what she wants for $5k is a big heavy car to protect her in a crash, be leather-plushy and comfy like a Cadillac, Lexus, Acura, etc., as well as get great fuel economy, be totally reliable and never suffer any intermittent electrical problems like her Volvo has, and also last forever. Its called living in the past. The one thing I do relate to is that vehicles are more of a consumable then anything. Vehicles are the only thing I know of that you pay a great deal of money for and end up being worth nothing, all the while costing you a fortune to use it.

Having said that, we looked at about ten different mfrs. vehicles and the only vehicle that came close to filling the bill was the Acura. After I found out about the premium fuel thing I told her to keep what she has, and I will find an older nicer Volvo and restore it for her.

A Harley (60 mpg) is out of the question for her but not for me. This whole premium thing would not be an issue if it were not for the deliberate Gouging by George's friends.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda-Tech Is Fading &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I get about 19 city and really good highway never clocked it though. The TL isn't a gas saver by any means, should look for a 4 door Civic or Toyota Corolla for saving gas. No V-6 car is going to be that great on gas. You mention the Hyundai Sonata but I don't see that in a class with the TL. The Sonata is a A-B type car with a little more power. The TL has style, class, power and other things.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, she currently gets 17 city, so that is certainly not any worse. Her Volvo is a big bore four, and that may be why. Possible final drive ratios issues also. Civics and Corollas - you got to be kidding! - nix that! I believe that the extra power a V6 provides can push a 3,500 lb car easier than a 4 cyl can. A 4 cyl has to work harder, therefore more fuel is needed - at least uphills. Have you ever been in the 2006 Sonata? It offers lots of car for the money. Car and Driver did a great review of that car, as well as, CR. They are praising it for many reasons. If Hyundai offered the interior of a Acura in that Sonata, I would tell Mom to buy it in a heartbeat. Not having to ever change a Timing Belt, getting good mileage, and having the #1 reliable vehicle, and the best warranty in the industry, and on and on, well Acura better start paying attention too. The only ""Sonata" issue for me is whether they will get the longevity of a European vehicle - hmmm?

Anyway, thank you tremendously for the tranny tip. So, what Acura-MY is better in your opinion?

Diyer

hypnosisracing

1.) Prepare to enter the world of the Acura transmission woes. You WILL experience them sooner or later, so become friends with the local service center and their employees, because once the problems start, you'll be seeing alot of them.

2.) You can run whatever gas you want in that car...but it asks for premium, and my logic on it is this...if you're going to buy a premium car, dont skimp on the gas just to save $5-$7...its not worth it, you lose performance, but you also risk damage if you drive the car the same at higher rpms...not so much on the TL as it is with the S2000, NSX or other higher reving motors...but regardless, again, if you're going to buy a premium car, dont skimp on the gas, spend the extra few bucks and dont worry about it.

3.) The TL does not have the system that makes the Bimmer 7series so unreliable...so in that respect, no...you do not have to worry about it. The 7series was bimmers way of saying "Hey folks, heres a luxury car with every possible option you could think of packed into a single car as cheaply as possible..." and is one reason the 7series is not as popular as BMW once thought it should be.

...my advice...dont get pre-2004 TL, simply because the car is going to give you a major headache when the tranny does go bad...i know from experience, having owned a 2001 CL-S before my 325Ci...whcih had 4 tranny's during my ownership. In the next year i would say the TSX and TL will come down alot, putting the TSX in the high teens and TL in the lower $20k's...id wait for that.

cannan

Yea at this point the only people I see buying older TL's are the ones that know about the tranny problem and don't care about dealing with it, such as myself. However I'm sure after a few times of replacement anyone would get sick of it. I also am not a fan of the new TL body style that is the biggest reason I went with the 3rd gen.

Anyway...good luck on your search!

diyer

I just got finished looking up the reliability history of the 2001 and 2002 Acura TL and Cl models, in Consumer Reports (CR). Indeed, the transmission problem(s) was listed right there - but take note, the tranny problem listed was only for the 01 and 02, and not for the 03, certainly one of my reasons for settling on the 2003 or pre 2001. The 01 and 02 TL, and the 02 CL, had "poor" trannies, but the 01 Cl tranny was listed as "bad" ... Eeeeks, I guess that's the one you had. Too bad CR reliability reporting is only hindsight capable and not more of a prognostication device.

Well, I still like the [other MY] Acuras. And if CR is reliable (someone ought to do a reliability report about CR's reliability reports - he he he), I may get one someday, but for now there are other issues coming to light that do not sit well with me.

For one thing, just trying to get to the bottom of any issue that crops up is becoming sheer drudgery, and in that sense, in all fairness to Acura, that is not unique - that's how it is with anything, the truth is a hard thing to find.

But the annoying part of it is that, for example, I wanted to know how many CATS, Mufflers, Resonators, Oxygen sensors, the TL had on it, and so the Acura Ardmore, PA dealership told me four CATS and two O2 sensors (quite an insane answer to my logic), and the Metro Acura, Philadelphia, Pa dealer told me one cat, two O2 sensors, and two mufflers. Excuse me, but if this is there Acura's representatives' presales answers, I hate to think what I will be told when I really have a problem, and then attempt to deal with it based on misinformation.

Btw, I'm sure these answers would horrify an Acura engineer, but engineers don't sell cars. Salesmen and service departments are sickeningly incompetent.

Thanks for this site, at least.

diyer

PS. "Vehicles are not a commodity or an investment - they are a consumable, that takes your money while you have them, and when you finally get them working properly, they are no longer worth anything."

GQ_22

Does the 99 TL have the same tranny problem? Mine had the tranny replaced at 50,000 miles, and now I'm buying it with 78000 miles on it.

hypnosisracing

I dont think the 1999 model was included...

But take note...the 2003 and some early 2004's were most certainly part of that recall, and experience the same transmission woes. The reason people have the 2003 as a better rating is because they havent had issues with their's yet, and because the CL-S came with a 6speed manual...therefore nobody complains about the tranny because most of them who bought the CL-S got the 6speed which has no issues, unfortunately...i dont think the TL came with the same 6speed transmission, thus remaining in the same boat as the previous years.

Let me say it again in bold...

THE 2003 DOES HAVE THE TRANNY ISSUES...AS DOES THE EARY 2004's!

diyer

Thanks much for that heads up in the TL tranny thing. Now that last detail as to why the problem was not yet reported made the difference. I was wondering if one bought an 03 TL and did not know about the tranny, if/or when it went sour, does Acura replace it or dance around the issue with pointing the finger at the duped consumer, since may of the 03'are still under warranty.

I got to say that what disturbs me even much more about this tranny thing, is that it is the kind of thing you hear about on cheap crap cars, or US made cars that are known for this problem. But Acura! ... Well, I thought they were the kind of car you buy and "never" have to worry about something of that magnitude - thought they suffered mostly maintenance issues at worst - pads, rotors eventually, fluids, tires, etc? ... Lexus and Infinity must be have a field day on this issue.

diyer

hypnosisracing

You and i were in the same boat when i first bought my CL-S and then found out too late about the tranny woes...i got into the car thinking "Damn, all this, for $20,000...and its a honda too!" and then i started reading...and reading and reading and reading...a few months later, im at Acura working out a rental car because my tranny ripped itself apart. I didnt mind at first...because ANY of them are covered to 100,000k...regardless of where you bought them...but then after bringing it back 3 times for the same problem, and having a rental all 3 times, i just said **** it, and traded it in (and took a little loss) to get my 325Ci, which i have been 110% happy with thus far...no problems at all.

Acura will no give you any problems about the warranty repairs...they are so used to it you simply go there and say "Hey, i have transmission problems..." and they have everything pretty much ready to go...just sucks because you're usually stuck in some lowly TSX (which i wasnt impressed with at all) or some POS enterprise rental (i got an F150, Grand Prix and Saab convertible during my sessions, all of which sucked *****)...

As far as the owners not knowing...Acura offers what is called "Manufacturers Buy Back" program, but many people just stuck it out and have passed the statute of limitations for that offer...it does not apply to used cars, unless of course you buy it and the tranny issues or any kind of mention of those things is told to you, in which case you can probobly file for a lemon law claim...but that may get a little bit nasty...and ive heard can take up to a year to even process, which is why i didnt even bother. That and on mine...the CarFax said manufacturers buyback, which is where i made my mistake because i assumed i knew what i meant instead of asking, then found out too late what it meant...

And let me tell you...these cars are IMPOSSIBLE to sell for a good profit...because once they are in for warranty work, CarFax reports it...and then people ask about it, and it scares them away, even with Acuras warranty...so it sucks.

DaiJekBok

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hypnosisracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And let me tell you...these cars are IMPOSSIBLE to sell for a good profit...because once they are in for warranty work, CarFax reports it...and then people ask about it, and it scares them away, even with Acuras warranty...so it sucks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Since when does Carfax report warranty work?

hypnosisracing

In events of recalls...if the work is done as a result of a recall, that information can be obtained on CarFax...when i tried to sell my CL-S, not only did it read back about the manufacturers buyback situation...but it also showed the repairs done to the car as something generic...i cant remember what the wording was.

If i still had my VIN# for that car i would give it to you...you could see if you had access to CarFax.

DaiJekBok

Oh so it reports recall-related repair information, not necessarily warranty repairs. I was starting to wonder if they were collecting data on every niggling problem someone might take their car back for, though I don't imagine they could work that out anyway.

hypnosisracing

Oh no...i dont think CarFax reports warranty work...just if its recall related (like this tranny thing)...and really, the report i had on my CL-S didnt specifically say "RECALL WARRANTY WORK" it just said it was in for service...under a MRP (manufacturers recall post)...but people see that, and then they're like "What does that mean?" and you could always be shady, but im not that kind of guy, so i tell them the truth...and they walk. Its all good though, i didnt lose much on it, and i have what is a nicer car now in my opinion.

foshizllmynizl

What is warrenty coverage like on 100000+ miles, need to know because may have an oppertunity on a good deal TL from a trusted seller.

hadboosttroy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hypnosisracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

3.) The TL does not have the system that makes the Bimmer 7series so unreliable...so in that respect, no...you do not have to worry about it. The 7series was bimmers way of saying "Hey folks, heres a luxury car with every possible option you could think of packed into a single car as cheaply as possible..." and is one reason the 7series is not as popular as BMW once thought it should be.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

base on a no-option 750li is 75,800. thats cheap?

hypnosisracing

There is no warranty coverage after 100k.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">base on a no-option 750li is 75,800. thats cheap?</TD></TR></TABLE>

You missed the point...never said car was cheap, said the problems are numerous because BMW slapped tons of features into a car as cheaply as possible...so there wasnt enough put into "reliability" in the creature comforts.