tlfrustration

I am having a driveability issue with my 02 TL and am out of Ideas of what it could be. I bought the car at 60k and for the most part it has driven great until about 79-80k

Progressively, When driving, the car feels like it is hesitating/iradically shaking at crusing idles regardless of speed.

It gives you the feeling similar to that of when the tires are out of balance, but it is not that because it is not a consistent feeling of vibration at say 60 miles an hour; you feel at 20, 40, 70 and it is not a constant repetitive vibration, it jumps all over the place and it feels like the car is jerking and shaking. It used to come and go but now it is becoming an all the time occurence at all different intensities. Just recently got new tires(1500 miles ago) and have had them balanced (3) times and have had a front end alignment.

You dont notice it as much when your quickly accelerating, its more when you back off to cruising RPM's, even though I am beginning to notice it more during acceleration. At Idle, when reving up the RPM's say to 3k, and eventually dropping back down to 750, at 1500-2000 it gives a very quick stall shake followed by a slight bounce up in the RPM's before it settles at the Idle RPM of 750-900.

In the morning, when it is cold the vibration is constant and consistent with that of of a the wheels being out of balance, but it transforms into the problem one paragraph above, after about 10-15 minutes as it warms up-Another thing too, the vibration is not felt in the steering wheel, you feel the shake in your body. To be sure it wasn't the rear tires out of balance, I move them to the front to see if I would feel it more in the steering wheel, and I didn't.

It is good to note, that I have not seen to much of a decline in MPG's-I usually float between 24-30 mpg with the driving I do.

Things I have done to try and fix it-prefaced by saying it has been to the dealer many times with no solutions.

1) Had the trans recently replaced by Acura Refirbed one.

2) Replaced the plugs with NGK Iridium(No Improvement)

3) Replaced Airfilter w/ K&N(No Improvement)

4) Replaced the EGR valve(No Improvement)

5) Have had back to back fill-ups with octane and fuel injector cleaner added(thought there may be some water in my tank or got some tainted gas)

6) Had front rotors and pads replaced(dealer thought that this was the cause of the problem by the caliper hanging up on the rotors that were slightly warped) NOT IT AT ALL!

7) Both Motor Mounts have been replaced. Now that I think about it, it seems like the problem has become more noticeable since I had them replaced-(One of the mounts was torn) But who knows!

Ideas of what it could be In order of what I have found through my research-

1) O2 Sensors gone/getting bad, but I have had no Check Engine light come on and dealer has said that they have not gotten any code from the computer. I have heard this is an issue to the point where the sensor has not failed, because if it failed it would trigger the Check Engine light

2) Transmission-Bad installtion? Bad Torque converter? Refirbed transmission was not really fixed? Transmission mount bad? Don't know!

3) Ignition coils going bad-again dealer has said that they have not gotten any code from the computer.

4) Clogged Injectors-I am thinking with debris because of the recent gas shortage in the South East-During that time, because premium wasnt available and gas tanks at pretty much all the stations were low. Also got my gas a CostCo and their gas contains ethanol, but recently, last 6-9 fill ups have been at BP with Premium and problem has progressively gotten worse during that time.

5) Clogged Fuel Filter-Is there a fuel filter on the 2002 TL?

6) Some misc Sensor in trans or throttle or whatever or whereever sensor has gone bad?

As you can see, I am out of Ideas and I have already thrown alot of money in parts and dealer diagnostics-Any help or feedback will be most appreciated!!!

tlfrustration

I am starting to notice a decrease in gas mileage too...

rajca

seafoam the car. do it in the intake, gas tank, and the oil. might be a plugged or sticking injector.
go over to acuazine.com and search for the DIY Seafoam thread. it will show u how to do it.

kulrevon

was the vibration there before the transmission swap?

This is just another idea. What about axles?

dtapia

if you have taken the car to the dealer theyshould be able to take a data list snap shot from the hds and that will provide a direction to look in.i would contact your service adviser that helped you and see if they will do that for you since you have spent a few dollars with them trying to correct this problem.When and if they do this please post your data list back here so i can see whats going on.

tlfrustration

It was also before the trans swap.

I thought it might be the axles but the vibration and hesitation is not there during high RPM acceleration; its seems like I still have most of my HP and the vibration and hesitation is only at slow and easy accelerations and cruising at variable speeds. If it is the axles shouldnt I feel it all the time?

tlfrustration

Good point! The service adviser has been pretty helpful and the techs are baffled by it to. But they are not willing to do anything unless they get paid for it, like checking the o2 sensors for voltage readings, or opening up the trans to see if every thing is ok.

Question: What about MAP sensor or Idle sensor, or any of the other little sensors at throttle and at the trans, could they be causing this issue? Does the o2 sensor when its not operating correctly, should it make the check engine come on or is that only during a o2 sensor failure?

tlfrustration

The seafoam idea is interesting but is also somewhat scary to where like an engine flush, it could cause alot of things to get clogged. What has been your experience in using it on a somewhat newer car like mine?

YeuEmMaiMai

my milage started dropping off when my trans started taking a crap. new trans better milage and I am at 74K on a 02 CLS

dtapia

the short and long term fuel trims will tell a lot also the map voltage. most advanced scanners will show that detail and will be able to get a good direction to go in.

YeuEmMaiMai

change to winter gas will result in a drop of milage.

model x

When they did the EGR did they clean the passages in the intake plenum?

tlfrustration

Yes they took care of that about 10k ago and recently I replaced the EGR valve.

I almost wondering if I need to have the valves adjusted, I shouldn't have to do it until 105k but you never know.

tlfrustration

Problem is fixed.....

Kumho Tires suck!...took them back to the store and got them replaced with goodyear eagle tires with a "v" speed rating, the Kumho's have an "H" rating.

Simple fix that was way to complicated and way to expensive! I guess what threw me off was the variability and occurence of the vibration, it changed constantly and was a different severities. oh well, its fixed

Still, valves probably need adjusting and eventually I will change the ignition coils just because the engine skipping a bit, but all in all the major problem has been taken care of.

Thanks for the ideas!

tlfrustration

Ok, Problem is steadily coming back.

Car is running a little rough sometimes and a little more rough other times. I have not noticed it affecting acceleration at all, but still in cruising speeds, its has sputtering hesitation to it. When you accelerate at say 50 to 60 and then let off the gas so that it can cruise or slow down you get a really pronounce jerk back followed by the sputtering hesitation and again it is random; it doesnt do it all the time.

Question: when a coil starts to go, does it feel like small or large misfire, could this be the problem? or does it need a valve adjustment? Could it be the MAP sensor or any other sensor going bad? Plugs have been changed, Egr has been cleaned and replaced.

If I take it back into the dealer, what should I be asking them specifically to look at so they can find it this time, because a few months ago, they were baffled.

dtapia

if you return to the dealer ask them for a snap shot of the pgm fi data list. their is a egr issue that has caused some problems like you have but with out a snap shot of the engine we are all guessing at what the real problem is.

tlfrustration

Update....When brought in for an engine scan, they told me nothing coded up...the problem is the problem is still there...During this time they did another Fuel system flush and cleaned out the EGR port again....no improvement

I looked on another thread and there was talk about having a bad Fuel Pressure Regulator, it seemed logical but when I put it in, nothing!

The behavior is just like before, variable at different speeds and different weather conditions....cannot get a common scenario to recreate the feeback...Just seems everytime I take it to the dealership, it behaves normally! Irritating!

Any ideas? One thought was needing to get the valves adjusted or even manually remove the injectors and clean those out, but getting the valves adjusted is a pricey proposition. Another thought would be the trans...is the Torque converter not grabbing correctly or is something just not right in the recently replaced trans?

Again, out of ideas...

Also, I was thinking about looking into a scanner....Any suggestions on what to look for that is under 200? Will I need a service manual to go with this purchase as well to decipher what codes are what?

Thanks again for the help

YeuEmMaiMai

have you put new plugs in? are all the grounds in good condition?

JDogg

I have a pretty nice MacTools scanner that will read all the data parameters from the car. I'm asking $275 for it. I paid ~600 off the tool truck for it.

Is the car vibrating or just running poorly? If its vibrating again check all the bushings for wear, rotate/balance the tires again. It's odd for tires to just start vibrating like that with out some sort of alignment related wear or if you hit a pothole and broke a belt in the tire or something.

Does it get worse with higher vehicle speed or higher rpm?

tlfrustration

New Plugs(PGK) and New Coils(hitachi) have been installed. New EGR has been installed Wheels have been balanced and aligned. Tires are goodyear eagles.

In the morning when you first start up, you get a little bit of a sputter. Its subtle, almost like water in the gas but I have used fuel system treatment and dry gas a few times and the problem is still there. Even when the car has been running for awhile, there is a little bit of a sputter, a little more subtle the when first started....When I was at the dealer, the tech that was with me told me it was normal....no offense, but I think he is an idiot because the car did not do that when I first bought it at 60k miles; it ran super smooth except for the trans...

tlfrustration

This is happening at all speeds. Thanks for the offer on the scanner, but I am looking for something a little cheaper.

YeuEmMaiMai

to solve this problem you are going to need a scanner that can read data in realtime.

possibilites and they are not cheap

Throttle Position Sensor
Idle Control Valve
Electrical Load Detector
Crank Position Sensor

JDogg

do those motors have vacuum controlled egr or is it all computer controlled?

its been so long since i have done one of those
anyway, if its vac controlled, pull the vac line off the egr valve and see if it drives right.

Have you done a compression test?

sometimes if one or 2 cylinders is low on compression it will have a slight miss.

tlfrustration

I believe it is computer controlled...I do not see any vac lines going to it

tlfrustration

Correct me if I am wrong, but when they run a scanner on the engine at the dealership, wouldnt they pick up any irregularities immediately in pressure, exhaust concentration, misfires, sensors not operating correctly....I figured they would have a real time scanner.

One thing, when I asked for a snapshot in time of the scan to be printed out they said they could not do it...Somehow I just didn't believe them...I would assume you can do that.