EP3/DC5 Suspension Tuning Basics/FAQ's (As told by Mustclime) - Page 13 - Honda-Tech


EP3/DC5 Suspension Tuning Basics/FAQ's (As told by Mustclime)

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Old 03-19-2013, 03:21 PM   #301
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Default Re: EP3/DC5 Suspension Tuning Basics/FAQ's (As told by Mustclime)

Thanks for the feedback! I've been doing a lot of research on suspension setup on them and I honestly feel like it's not necessarily that the cars aren't good for tuning, but rather the margin for different setups is more limited compared to that of, let's say an EG6. But I don't think it necessarily makes it a bad car! Just look how many people love them! =D It appears the primary rule of thumb is to not lower it too much and rather rely on proper dampening and spring rates for the best results!
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Old 06-03-2013, 03:58 PM   #302
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Default Re: EP3/DC5 Suspension Tuning Basics/FAQ's (As told by Mustclime)

Hi guys my ep3 have this clucking noise and im losing my mind...

im running tokico Dspec and H&R springs and inverted OEM tie rod ends too

here is my question should i spend or not on this to correct the problem???


does really works or not??

than you dudes! For your comments and help
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Old 08-19-2013, 02:52 PM   #303
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Icon2 Re: ep3/dc5 suspension tuning basics

Quote:
Originally Posted by mustclime View Post
Next topic.....swaybars suck.

Have you ever though about how a swaybar( anti-roll bar) works? What are they good for? Have you ever thought "since the factory put a 25mm hollow bar on the front of my car, wouldn't my car handle better with a 27mm solid bar"?

Well, for the longest time I thought of swaybars(SB) as spring helpers. I thought that when you went into a turn, the swaybar(SB) being attached to the lca and the body helped hold up the car through the turn....WRONG!!!!

Think about what happens when you go through a turn......
1) the driver turns the wheel, the tires turn and bite, the car starts tochange direction...
2) As the car starts to change direction, weight shifts to the outside tires, the outside springs are overloaded and start to compress.
3) as the springs compresm the lower control arm starts to angle up.....the (SB) being attached to both lca's and the body is forced up on the outside side......
this is the important part!!!!
what happens on the inside suspension of the car???
4) the (SB) being nothing more than a "U" shaped rod/tube pulls up the inside lca because it "wants" to be flat not twisted.
think about that for a second.
.
.
.
.

Now, if down force increases grip( like having huge wings on a F1 car), what does up force do to grip???? Well, It decreases grip.....:uhoh:
This is why some people think of (SB)'s as grip reducers. Why would car makers ever put such a stupid thing on a car, why not control body roll with spring rates......simple, who wants to dd a car that can run over an ant and have the driver feel every bone in its body crush.....OK, what should you do with this knowage? IMO, understand that big sways on the drive wheels are really dumb, Understand that you should use the non drive wheels to control body roll because they are doing the least work in a turn. These are the reasons you wait till you have your tires, springs and dampers before you mess with the sways. (SB)s are for fine tuning the suspension not setting it up.

Im going to have to disagree with you there sir , you were right in the first place !! , The anti roll bar does 3 things,
1) Firstly, with its connections to the suspension on each side, it resists roll: the suspension is being asked to allow rise at the outer wheel and fall at the inner but this cannot be achieved without twisting the bar.
2) the bar then starts acting like an extra spring added to the existing ones, particularly at the outer wheel.
3) it begins moving weight off the inner tire onto the outer one, and the combined efforts of front and rear bars can move weight off the front onto the rear and vice versa.

What is often not realized is that the anti-roll bar is a very powerful instrument and correctly dimensioned and fitted it can provide effects 5 or 10 times greater than simply fitting stiffer springs. It has a rate calculable in
in lbs./in and the car sees it partially as an extra spring.

It is not always understood that the stiffest or most roll resistant end of the car recieves the major part of any weight transfer. The weight can and does move diagonally and is the basis of tuning a car into handling in a particular way.

The bar for many years was considered a simple approach to under/oversteer problems and handling balance.

The fact that an anti-roll bar is widely employed on road cars at the front to promote understeer and less sensitivity en route to the shops ( often taking the form of an integral member of the front suspension to save cost and weight) strengthens the widely held view of what it does.......however in racing the approach can well be reversed.

Stiffening the front bar can cure understeer, not make it worse and vice versa. There seem to be atleast 3 possible explanations for this.
numero uno... The fact that racing tires have made giant steps in rescent years means that a given car might not be fully utilising, for instance, its front tires. To put more load in to them can raise the temperature, alter the contact patch shape or pressure distribution and simply improve grip rather than reducing it

second point i want to make is that the car may be so badly out of balance interms of the coils and bars fited that one enf or the other is taking a totally disproportionate ammount of the anti roll resistance of the vehicle as a whole. Without knowing it in percise terms, stiffening or softening bars may simply be balncing things out and helping the suspension work properly. Thirdly, there may be an aspect of the design that means that only the bar at one end is working properly.. or atall..

:drink::drink:
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Old 09-08-2013, 12:31 AM   #304
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Default Re: ep3/dc5 suspension tuning basics

Hello mustclime,

For rear tire, what camber degree you advise for dd and for track use? I'm usin -1 for front and -.4 for rear for dd and i think to use -2.5 for front and -1 for rear on track day use. For daily drive what should toe setting for front and rear?

Thanks.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mustclime View Post
The following is a look at how to "tune" the ep3/dc5 suspension from a design point of view. First I would like you to really look at the front suspnsion......




First, look at the top pic, that is looking at the stock suspension from the rear. You will notice the LCA is angled down from center of the car. The tie rod is angled up from the center of the car. The suspension design is greatly effected by ride hight . What does that mean? Well, look at the top pic again. As you lower the the suspension the LCA goes flat and then past one inch of drop it starts to angle up. This is very bad for the suspension when you look at side loads( cornering forces). If the LCA is angled up and the weight of the car pushing side ways while the tire is trying to stick to the road, this force will "tend" to push the LCA up more and cause the suspension to blow through its travel. If the LCA is flat or angled down, the cornering loads are directed down the LCA in to the sub frame.
Cliff notes: LCA angled up from the center of the car = you blow through your suspension travel and get lots of under steer. So do not lower the car more than one inch.

Next issue to look at with the top pic is camber......Camber is a term used to describe what angle the tire is set at with regard to the road. In stock form, camber is not adjustable and the stock suspension is set for about zero degrees camber. This is great for drag racing and making tires last for 60,000 miles but it sucks for generating grip in turns. Having a couple degrees of negative camber helps the outside tire to take a set and helps keep the tire tread on the road surface. There are 3 ways to get more camber in a ep3/dc5.
1) Camber plates, these angle in the top of the strut and as a result angle the tire.
2) Crash bolts, these mount where the strut and the bearing carrier connect. This allows you to angle in the bearing carrier and allows you to angle in the tire inward.
3) Type-r LCA, these are wider than stock and as a result angle the tire inward. WARNING! If you decide to use these, you should not use your stock axles and you will need type-r front sways because of the extra width of the LCA.
What is the best camber setting for the front suspension? It depends on what you are doing and what tires you are using. As a general rule I would say -1 to -1.5 degrees for dd and about -3 for the autoX guys.
Cliff notes: Negative camber good for cornering in the front suspension.

Now look at the lower pic, the first thing I want to to look at is the front bushing on the LCA. That bushing is there to change toe settings as the cornering loads increase. It adds toe in as the gee forces go up, this = increasing under steer! Anyone that is trying to get our cars to handle needs to replace this bushing asap. Both Mugen and Energy Suspension make kits for this.
Cliff notes: The front bushing in the LCA needs to be replaced to make our cars handle.

Now I want to address the Caster angle of our suspension in the front. If you look at bottom pic you will notice the strut is almost strait up and down. The stock caster angle is around 1.5 degrees.....this sucks for handling and strait line tracking. If Honda screwed up anything with our cars suspension, this is the biggest thing. It is also the hardest to fix but it can be fixed. K-Mac makes a Camber/Caster plate for this. The strut towner's can also be re-drilled to angle the strut back. For road racing there are bushings for the LCA that shift the LCA forward to angle the strut back.
Cliff notes Caster good but hard to get.

Now the rear suspension layout





OK, you should notice a couple of things with this layout.
1) It is a unequal length duel control arm design. This means that as the suspension goes through its travel the shorter UCA pulls the hub carrier inward and increases negative camber. Negative camber is good for cornering and tires stay in contact with the ground.
2) It has a big toe effecting bushing on the front of the LCA. This bushing will add toe out as the cornering forces increase aid in turn in but it changes as the cornering loads change so the car needs more correction as it goes through the turn. For a more stable car, these bushings should be replaced with stiffer ones from Energy Suspension or Mugen.
3) The damper/spring combo are really short and placed away from the wheel. This means the motion ration between wheel movement and the damper movement is a lot different than the front ( .588 vs .90). This means you need a lot stiffer spring and higher damped shock in the rear than the front even though the rear has less weight over it. Any time you are looking at spring rates on coil overs, these rates should show this.
4) This suspension design is also really effected by ride hight. Lower it to much and side loads from cornering will force the suspension through it travel. The trick is to keep the LCA flat or angled down a little for the suspension to work right.

Overall Summery
In stock form, the car is designed to have a lot of under steer. With these toe effecting bushings, you get more toe-in in the front and more toe out in the rear so the rear will grip better than the front under load. You also get more negative camber in the rear than the front as the suspension loads. This is all to protect the novice driver and Honda of America. There is a old rule....car goes off the road front first, its the drivers falt. Car goes off the road tail first, its the car makers falt.
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Old 10-07-2013, 06:30 PM   #305
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Default Re: EP3/DC5 Suspension Tuning Basics/FAQ's (As told by Mustclime)

I need help with my coilovers (racelands) can anyone help please
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Old 04-23-2014, 09:14 PM   #306
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Default Re: EP3/DC5 Suspension Tuning Basics/FAQ's (As told by Mustclime)

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Old 04-24-2014, 07:42 AM   #307
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Default Re: EP3/DC5 Suspension Tuning Basics/FAQ's (As told by Mustclime)

.

Last edited by DS21; 05-05-2014 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 04-27-2014, 06:45 AM   #308
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Default Re: EP3/DC5 Suspension Tuning Basics/FAQ's (As told by Mustclime)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS21 View Post
Been reading as much as I can about the EP3 suspension. Recently got a '05 Si, all stock.
I can tell it needs some improvement in handling. I intend this for DD, I ordered new tires
B-stone S-04's stock size 205/55/16 on stock rims. I'd prefer to leave it stock height too. Reading here, it sounds like some camber plates for the front and front bushings for the LCR in the rear would accomplish most of what could be gained ? Is the third item, castor improvement in front more or less important than the first two changes ?
The best dd setup I have found is running the a-spec suspension from curry acura....you also need to change out the tierod ends and the casel nuts. The lower bushings on the rear shocks need about 3mm trimmed/grinded off them.

as far as I know, they do not make hotchickiss camber plates any more....So get one set of crashbolts( you need one stock bolt on each side to hold the settings once they are set). As far as the compliance bushings......they suck, hate them...replace them if you can...the rear ones are a huge pia.

My advise is at some point, think about some dc5 wheels, the 16 incher star ones are about a pound lighter and they will allow you to run plus 1.
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Old 04-27-2014, 07:01 AM   #309
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Default Re: EP3/DC5 Suspension Tuning Basics/FAQ's (As told by Mustclime)

,

Last edited by DS21; 05-05-2014 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 04-30-2014, 02:04 PM   #310
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Default Re: EP3/DC5 Suspension Tuning Basics/FAQ's (As told by Mustclime)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS21 View Post
Thanks for the reply. I just had the Bridgestone S-04's installed (205/55/16) on my stock rims and aligned. Slightly better, but still handles poorly, bump steer, wandering, rides like a skateboard.
you can also get a 05-06 dc5 types rear sway and bushings.....21mm helps
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Old 05-01-2014, 07:38 AM   #311
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Default Re: EP3/DC5 Suspension Tuning Basics/FAQ's (As told by Mustclime)

.

Last edited by DS21; 05-05-2014 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 05-03-2015, 03:06 PM   #312
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Default Re: EP3/DC5 Suspension Tuning Basics/FAQ's (As told by Mustclime)

Very very nice thread! Thank you so much!!
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Old 05-11-2015, 03:33 PM   #313
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Default Re: EP3/DC5 Suspension Tuning Basics/FAQ's (As told by Mustclime)

I don't know whether or not mustclime and some of the other erudite posters on the thread are still active but I could use some advice. My car is a near stock '04 EP3 running 205/55/16 Conti DW on the factory 16x6.5 cast alloys. I'm about to order the ASpec kit. The car is my mid-April through late October/early November DD and I have zero intention of doing any racing with it or lowering it beyond the ASpec drop. What is/are the next logical step(s)? Beefier rear sway bar? Mugen LCA bushings (not interested in the ES bushings, too many negative comments)? Full Mugen LFCA ($!!). K-MAC caster kit? Lighter, wider 17" wheels to run 225/50/17?
For strictly road use I assume diminishing returns kick in fairly quickly after fitting the ASpec kit. What makes sense and what doesn't given a decidedly finite budget?
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Old 08-25-2015, 04:46 PM   #314
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Default Re: EP3/DC5 Suspension Tuning Basics/FAQ's (As told by Mustclime)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LostHighway View Post
I don't know whether or not mustclime and some of the other erudite posters on the thread are still active but I could use some advice. My car is a near stock '04 EP3 running 205/55/16 Conti DW on the factory 16x6.5 cast alloys. I'm about to order the ASpec kit. The car is my mid-April through late October/early November DD and I have zero intention of doing any racing with it or lowering it beyond the ASpec drop. What is/are the next logical step(s)? Beefier rear sway bar? Mugen LCA bushings (not interested in the ES bushings, too many negative comments)? Full Mugen LFCA ($!!). K-MAC caster kit? Lighter, wider 17" wheels to run 225/50/17?
For strictly road use I assume diminishing returns kick in fairly quickly after fitting the ASpec kit. What makes sense and what doesn't given a decidedly finite budget?
Logical step for what?
Logical step would be to leave it stock so it daily drives.
Depends on what you want to do with the car. Which you already said you have no plans to race it.
If you are just giving yourself a project to do... Then I guess the logical thing would be whatever you want to do.
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