Burn_Down

Car: 96 integra Rs / 00 ITR engine.

Problem: Turn over but no spark and fuel pump is not priming. Relay click 2 quick time ( sound as one click ) but dosnt click after 3 second (when pump is done priming, since pump dosnt prime ), CEL stay on when key in pos II.

What I Did so far:
- Tested all fuses with a test light (double checked to be sure)
- Tested ignition coil resistances :0.8 Ohms, secondary 19.2K ohms (in specs)
- Tested ICM : as per Heynes Manual recommendation
- Disassembled Ignition switch, cleaned the connection, tested for voltage when key in position II with a test light.
- Tried to jump the ECU to get the CEL to flash for codes but not flashing at all. Hondata S200/P72 OBD1 ECU
-Swapped ECU for my roommate working OBD1 P72 (work on is car). Still no Fuel pump priming
- Tried 3 different Main relay Same thing happen with all 3 relays, 1 was in the car,1 I had laying around in the house and I bought a new one at NAPA just to be extra sure that both relay where not faulty. ( The one I bought, I can get a refund on Monday for it. My friend work at the store, he hooked me up so I dont waste money on already working parts.)
- Changed Valve cover, Transmission, Thermostat and battery grounds ( they where rusty and worn ) then tested with test light to be extra sure.
- Jumped +12v to the fuel pump through the Main Relay harness and pump started to prime.

I dont know where to look from now on, Any insight on my problem would be appreciated ive done my reserch and tested a bunch of stuff and still not found the freaking source of the problem.

racebum

1. the distributor tests aren't accurate, i have seen cars pass those tests, not start, change the coil, car starts. 98% of the time the coil is what dies and the rest is fine

2. the fuel pump is easy to get at, pull the wires, put 12v straight to it, see it it primes with direct power, if no, faulty pump, if yes, trace the wiring

sounds like you may have a voltage or ground problem

fcm

Test for power on IGP1 and IGP2 at the ECU/ECM with ign. switch in both the run and start positions, they are the only two yellow/black leads going to the ECU/ECM, [stock 96RS ECU/ECM plug(s)] both must have power in run and start for fuel pump to prime and to have spark.

Two clicks from the PGM-FI Main Relay indicates both the fuel injector relay and the fuel pump relay are turning on, first click is the fuel injector relay and the second click, [very close together] is the fuel pump relay.

So question is, why is the pump not priming, test the yellow/green lead, [fuel pump power lead] at the PGM-FI Main Relay for power when ign, switch is turned on, [should stay on for no more then 3-4 sec.].

If no power, fuel pump relay is not turing on, use a jumper to supply a ground, [from black ground lead at PGM-FI Main Relay plug] directly to the fuel pump relay control lead, [green/blue], if fuel pump turns on, and you have power at IGP1&2, there is another wiring problem with the ECU/ECM. 94

civicshmivic

I know you said you checked all fuses, but i have to ask just to be sure. Did that include the ones under the hood?

I had this issue on my b18c1 swapped '98 civic coupe and it was the underhood ecu fuse.

Edit: Also, this is a good read. http://techauto.awardspace.com/ecu.html

Burn_Down

Thanks for the reply everyone,

Racebum: as stated in my post I jumped the fuel pump and it primed instantly so the wiring to the fuel pump and the fuel pump are good. A friend of mine also Have a type R and tomorrow we will try my distributor and my ECU on is car just to rule that out of the way for sure. If it start with my dizzy then it is good.

Fcm: 1-The plan for tomorrow ( if its not raining again ) was to test the ecu harness as you said I will make sure to test IGP1 and 2
2-I already tested the harness of the main relay with a test light
Relay removed
Black:Ground tested good.
Yellow/White: +12 with car off
Black/yellow: +12 with ignition on

Relay back in
Yellow/Black +12 With ignition on
Yellow/Green +12 and stay on with ignition on <------- why does it stay on? Bad ECU?

Civicshmivic: All under hood fuses where tested with a MM and they all ad battery voltage on both sides.

Also thx for the link but I already read the whole site lol this is mainly where I took information on what to test in order to diagnose the car. Read it on my phone as I was going through the tests in my car. Heynes Manual also helped a lot. It is my first time diagnosing electrical problem and frankly I don't like it at all. Its driving me nuts not knowing and its all I think about! Can't borrow my roommate winter SUV for ever and driving 600 klm a week to get to work would always be better in my Teggy. I will post my finding tomorrow.

fcm

If the yellow/green, [fuel pump power lead] has power with the ign. on, why is fuel pump not running???

Are you sure the pump is not running?

You can have a running fuel pump and fuel pressure and still not have fuel to the cylinders, either no power or not ground pulse to the injectors.

Power for the injectors is supplied by the fuel injector relay, test for power at the injectors.

The ground pulse for the injectors is supplied by the ECU/ECM.

Test for ground on the green/blue at the PGM-FI Main Relay when ign. is turned on.


You said, "Jumped +12v to the fuel pump through the Main Relay harness and pump started to prime".

Where did you jump from and to where, what wire colors?

It's looking more and more like an ECU/ECM problem or wiring for the ECU/ECM. 94

Burn_Down

Thx for the help Fcm i think i found my problem.

I was going through the ECU harness A, checking pin IGP1 & 2 they ad power then proceded to verifie the grounds on the harness. As I pushed one of the ground with the probe of the test light I felt it go in. I then removed the key from ign, put it back and bam the pump primed instantly. Car started!! I let it warm up to operating temps shut it down and it been starting ever since. I will drive it more tonight to be sure it was indeed the problem.

Just a freaking lose wire in the ECU harness took me a week to find out lol.

Thks again for the help.

fcm

Sometimes it is the simplest things. 94

Burn_Down

Well apparently it not solved, cost me 150$ to get the car back home. FML -_-

Same problem, I stopped to get gas. When I tryed to start it, crank but does not fire up. I tryed a couple time then the pump started the car fired up and died instantly. I started it again and held the RPM at about 2k car runned fine but there was a permanent CEL light but it was dimming and comming back full brightness like if it wanted to close for 1 milli second. ( or it looked like it was shorting kinda flashing but not going away) . Let go of the gas it died again... Then relay was clicking the first two but not the third, CEL on permanant, no pump priming ad to get it towed home.

Also i notice, if i hold the brake while turning the key to the on position relay dont click... If i dont press the brake and turn the key on then the relay click twice but still no pump priming and permanant CEL.

Im about to buy a gallon of gas a box of matches and watch the F*cker burn....

fcm

Sounds like a grounding issue, grounding problems can be very intermittent.

Also, when one circuit, [brake lights in your case] has an effect on an unrelated circuit, [fuel pump/PGM-FI Main Relay in your case it is almost always a grounding issue.

I would check the fuel pumps ground, you say, "turn the key on then the relay click twice" that, [2 clicks] indicates that both the fuel injector relay, [first click] and the fuel pump relay, [second click] are turning on.

So again the question is, if the fuel pump relay is turning on, why is the fuel pump not turning on?

Test the yellow/green, [fuel pump power lead] at the PGM-FI Main Relay for power, if it has power the problem is the fuel pump or the fuel pump ground.

An intermittent fuel pump is a common problem, I drove my 94RS for 2 week with a bad pump, I had the back seat outand access panel off and a rubber hammer so I could give the fuel pump holding bracket a wack when the pump would not work, and as long as it was running it was fine, but stop and try and restart, it would need a wack. 94

Burn_Down

I came back to test for the problem today and of course....the car run fine......

I didn't touch it since it got towed home. Turned the key on and started normally. I waited about a minute and check engine came on and the engine stopped right away. Did not stutter like a bad fuel pump just plain died. I left the key on the on position to check the voltage at the relay and ignition and suddenly i hear the pump prime relay click check engine goes away and i can start it again...

I've let it run for about 30 min with heater on floor and it didn't stall ran perfectly. So i took it for a drive for about 30 min not going to far in case it stall i don't want to get towed again -_- and of course it run fine. Get home park it, try to start it again and it starts.... I didn't do a thing to it since last time.

Now i have to wait till it stall again to continue testing which is a pain because i dont know when it will happen......

As for the absence of click when I have my foot on the brakes...im a dumbass those are the click from the alarm box. -_-

fcm

Alarm box???

You say the pump started priming as soon as you tested the power on the yellow/green at the PGM-FI Main Relay, is that correct?

Was that as soon as you moved the relay or when you touched the lead. 94

Burn_Down

You are talking about today?
I didn't touch any wire today I just left the key on the on position turned around to get my Multimeter from the passenger seat and I heard the pump turn on.... That was after it stalled and died on it own....

The alarm box i mean the alarm system relay. it click twice when i turn the ignition on, same as when you want to setup remote start leave the car running put the handbrake on remove your foot from the brake then it click to tell you to remove the key and exit the vehicle.

fcm

OIC, an alarm relay, [alarm box].

Check for continuity between the termostat ground(s) and the ground lead/terminal at the PGM-FI Main Relay.

It may be worth it to depin all the terminals, [one at a time] in the PGM-FI Main Relay plug and carfully "pinch" them a little tighter, there is definitely a connection problem someplace, maybe there.

You said, "Changed Valve cover, Transmission, Thermostat and battery grounds".

What exactly do you mean by "changed", did you clean or completely replace the terminals?

If replaced, did you solder the connections? 94

Burn_Down

I replaced the valve cover tranny and battery ground with 4gauge new wire. They ad some green on them, winter is not good for cars. As for the thermostat ground i cleaned the contact surface and tested the wire with a test light. My mecanic said to replace about 6inches of each wire on the thermostat since they ad some green on them and to resolder new wires. I dont have a soldering iron so i might bring im the car later this week if it give me trouble again.
I also ordered a new ignition switch at the acura dealer i should recive it today. I cleaned the switch but noticed some wear i doubt thats the problem but will replace it to prevent furter problem.
The car been running fine since last stall but im not taking it out too far in case it stall again.

Burn_Down

Finaly today i started it let it warm tryed to start again dont start! Let the game begin lol.

Pinout on the ecu harness.
Ckf, ckp and the tdc grounds are not lighting up the test light ( aligator clip on the battery +, probing the wire in the harness) when the car is off. Is that normal?
All other ground tested good
IGP1&2 have 12+ when key is ON
#20 yellow green ICM as 12+
#16 green blue fuel pump relay as 12+

Main relay:
Yellow/green not lighting up when key on pos ON (not for two second not ever)
All other wires are testing 12+ exept ground
Ground is good
If I use a jumper from any of the wire with 12+ to the yellow green = pump turn on

fcm

If the green/blue at the PGM-FI Main Relay is testing as 12V+ then the ECU/ECM is not supplying the ground, you are reading the 12V+ on the other side of the relays coil.

Use a jumper from the black ground lead to the green/blue and try and start the engine.

If engine starts and runs the problem is the ECU/ECM or wiring to/from it.

Test continuity of the green/blue between the ECU/ECM and the PGM-FI Main Relay or if you test for power on the green/blue at the ECU/ECM and you get power, the continuity is good and the problem is at the ECU/ECM. 94

Burn_Down

I tryed what you said. Car do not start with the jumper ground to green/blue. Pump turn on when key on pos:ON engine crank but no start.

I got 12+ on the green/blue at ECU.

I notice last time it started that the hondata as a red light coming from inside the hondata box. That was with the car running I dont know if its supposed to be on when the key is on pos:ON but now its not lighting up

fcm

The problem must be the ECU/ECM.

When the ign. is on do you have power at the injectors, [lead that is the same color on all 4 injector plugs?

If so, test for ground pulse at the injectors, [a noid light is best for that] but you can also feel/hear the injector click. 94

Burn_Down

Found my problem i opened the thermostat ground harness and one of the wire was brocken about 12 inch inside the harness (had to open the whole thing to find it)
How i found out? I put the keys to the on position And when i pushed the harness down i eard the distributor click.pushed itup clicked again pushed down click eard the pump start... Started the car and everything now fine.
I already bough a clean 94 civic hb body to transfer everything in my teg is in final stage rust cancer. Im glad i finaly cleared this.

Thank you very much for helping me out. You dont know how much its appreciated. Keep up the good work! Thats what make H-T such a good place!

OH_1fstgsr

iTrader: (2)

So the final solution was to fix a grounding problem.
Something simple that seems to create huge headaches.

fcm

Grounding problems are the number one electrical issue that shows up at our shop.

That is why I always recommend redoing the grounds first, on cars with electrical issues.

And yes, a lot of electrical issues turn out to be something as simple as a grounding problem. 94