greatnightmare

Hello people. This is gonna be LONG, i hope somebody reads it!I have been having an issue of sorts. I recently rebuilt my b18c1. List of work done:
-valve job and mill (2 new guides due to being worn, and new seals)
- pressure tested head
- .5 over bore, so now I have 81.5 dnj pistons (ordered by machine shop and bored to the correct size)
-new rings and bearings(also ordered by machine shop)
- tested block and checked for deck straightness, all good.
-Arp head bolts
-NGK plugs and wires
-Gates timing belt
- a few other things that aren't coming to mind but none the less

I had my wifes familys friend who ia a mechanic help me with the rebuild mainly because his backyard garage is sweet with snap on whatever you need. My wife talked me into it... That being said, there was a lot of things he did, without me there even though I asked him not to. One of the things was installing pistons into the block.(He kicked me out when we got the rings on the pistons, I clocked 2 and he clocked 2 and I was going by integra service manual. He claimed he had something to do....he never left his house) anyways, it seems to drive pretty nice but my worry is im losing a quart of oil every 500 miles...Not good. So, I check for leaks and at first all I see is oil pan has a small pool on the ground and a drip on it. I believe its the blocked off oil return port on brand new moroso. Hopefully that will seal, ill find out tomorrow. Then I feel under oil filter and boom, theres oil. I smell oil through my vents @4-5k rpms, but I cant see any smoke. I had one of my employees follow me after work and he said there is just a little bit of smoke coming out of the exhaust but only when im decelerating by engine breaking. So wtf? If I wad burning all that oil in the combustion chambers I would think id be smoking like a chimney. At initial start up I let it idle for about 30-40 mins and then drove it a block to my house. First 300 miles I didnt take it past 4k and just accelerated to 4k then let the engine decel to get that vacuum to help seal rings. From like 300-700 I took it up just before vtec on occasion and let it slow down, but I was always varying rpms. Then from 700-1k ive taken to like 7k twice and still didnt see any smoke through back window. I changed oil at 100 300 500 and about to tomorrow. ANYWAYS....

Ran a dry compression test tonight:
Cyl 1- 180
Cyl 2- 180
Cyl 3- 175
Cyl 4- 200

I dont know what to make of the last 2 cylinders. Really just the last one. I have a sandwich plate installed for when I get a new oil pressure sending unit, but im gonna take that off tomorrow. I believe a lot of that oil is passing by that and burning on header. I also changed pcv which was gunked up and im going to find out tomorrow if there is still any smoke. So, any recommendations? Last resort I will pull motor again and rehone ans rering but im going to probably give another 500-1000 miles to see if the rings seal any more. I wouldnt think they would, but I read a post where a guy said he burned oil until about 3k miles and now he doesn't. But anyways any help would be nice. I have a ton of money tied up in this thing so I will get it right, but I dont want to rip it apart again if its not necessary. Thank you

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Unless the cylinder finish is unusually rough, the rings will seat themselves VERY quickly after a few full throtle pulls.

Not to add more questions to your dilema but that higher reading is very off. It, in my opinion is a mismatched piston provided by your builder or some repairs were made to the combustion chamber previously that slightly altered the compression ratio. That pressure difference is significant and would in my best quick estimation be equivilant to one half or slightly more compression points.

Either way you look at it, there is a problem.
Knock off the head and have it CCd and check the piston CCs too by several methods you can find. A slight compression imballance it tolerable in a completly stock set up. The rule of thumb is 5% difference.

greatnightmare

Well the pistons came as a set, and shouldnt they cylinders be straightened by the .5 boring? Thanks for the input, I will research how to check cc's.

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

I will tell You this from personal early experiences. NEVER believe that your builder is the most honest guy in the world. **** happens in machine shops and the cover ups are very frequent with novice shops.
I have had parts swaped that were not mine (now I mark everything in a hidden location). I have had different cams installed. I have had pistons severly damaged from material removal for ballancing and handed back to me like nothing was wrong. The cheaper the shop, the more likely You have gotten screwed; if nothing else, they never checked head CCs for example. I own a repair shop. Believe Me when I tell You accidents happen and the bottom line is profit, get it fixed and get it gone. I'm embarresed to admit that one or two incidents arrise a year that really test my metal.

I am really not trying to slander your shop, but how well do You know them?

full Circling

try and seal all of your visible oil leaks first. pull the sandwich plate adaptor, and seal your oil return fitting on the pan with this stuff:
Thread Sealants : Permatex® High Temperature Thread Sealant

full Circling

Truth.

greatnightmare

They have been in business for over 40 years. Ive heard only good things about them. They are all older men and seemed like stand up guys. I will call them tomorrow and get their opinion on the matter....and they werent cheap

greatnightmare

Thanks for the link. Can I get that locally you think?

greatnightmare

So I warmed the motor up by taking a couple laps around the neighborhood yeaterday i just let it idle for a couple minutes. Here's my results:

Dry-
1- 175
2-180
3-160
4-190
Wet-
1-180
2-200
3-175
4-210

Im gonna get new rings and do it myself this time. Should I break them in differently this time?

wunfstgsr

Why didn't you do it your self the first time then?

Theres a few different methods on breaking the motor, some vary the revs and gradually raise the revs as the miles go up some people claim to just run it really hard up to redline and within the first few miles the rings should seal.

just make sure all your clearances are correct.

did you do a leak down test to confirm the rings have blow by?

https://honda-tech.com/all-motor-nat...0vtec-1676914/

Initial startup process for new cylinders/rings:
Fill the motor up with 30W non detergent oil (quality does not matter). Just buy the cheapest you can find. Also, pick up the cheapest oil filter you can find (usually Fram). Check the dipstick periodically to see when the oil pan is full. Try not to fill higher than the upper most dot on the dip stick. It should be around 4 quarts (remember, you need a little extra oil for the vtec oil line).
Fill the motor with a 50/50 mixture of coolant to water. Believe it or not, the more water this mixture has, the cooler the engine will run. But, you need antifreeze in colder climates to prevent coolant freeze/expansion, as well as to prevent the water pump and sleeves from corroding. So, you would be fine to run 70/30 water/coolant ratio in the summer. Water does evaporate though, so check the level a little more often.
Make SURE you have your oil drain plug and oil filter installed, as well as your fill cap re-tightened.
Now, disconnect the ecu and turn the motor over for roughly 30 seconds to build up oil pressure. This is the easiest way to ensure you will not be injecting fuel and spark into the cylinders. Reinstall the ecu you will be using.
Fire the motor up and check for leaks. Make sure to check around the vtec oil line, as well as around the corners of the head, and underneath the distributor. These are common places for motors in general to leak oil. Make sure the oil pressure light extinguishes immediately. If not, turn the car off and troubleshoot. Let the car reach full operating temperature. Immediately begin to tune the car for a 14.1-15.1 AFR at idle. The closer to 14.7:1 the better. That's it. For the rest of the tuning, I'd suggest a street tune first then tune on the dyno, but every tuner has his/her own ways.

Oil changing schedule:
Startup - 30w non detergent, change after warm up
after 20 miles - your favorite non-syn
after 100 miles - your favorite non-syn
after 500 miles - your favorite non-syn
after 1000 miles - your favorite non-syn/synthetic (it is now safe to run synthetic)

You should stop seeing metal shavings in the oil after the 100 mile oil change. I strongly recommend using a magnetic oil drain plug for freshly built motors. You don't want all those shavings being pumped to the bearings, cams, or splashing on the cylinder walls...bad. Don't worry though, they will be there, no matter how close the clearances are.

Now for the break in. Try to vary the revs as much as possible, with alot of short blasts. It is very important that you let the engine "brake" itself by just letting off the throttle and letting the vehicle slow down on it's own, while in gear. This creates a vaccum in the cylinder and forces the rings outward, which wears down the peaks in the cylinder's fresh hone. Do this for the first 20 miles, and then proceed to beat the **** out of the motor, up to it's maximum rev range, as long as it is tuned accordingly. As long as the bearings are within spec and the rod bolts were torqued correctly, there is NOTHING to worry about.

I guarantee you WILL NOT burn oil using this break in method. If you do, you probably have leaky valve seals or bad rings/cylinder hone, or maybe possibly even other major problems with alignment of the sleeves themselves.

greatnightmare

Thanks for that info. Great stuff. The reason I didnt do it the first time is because the guy that was helping me had the car in his garage and he worked on it after I would leave, even though I told him not to. I just figured it would be much better doing it in a clean garage then on a inclined driveway. Looking back, very bad move. So next weekend im doing it again but in my driveway. Im hoping cross hatch is still visible but im gonna buy a flexhone anyways just in case. Just fyi I did have a magnetic drain plug but I never saw any "shavings". More of a dust mixed in oil.

As for the break in,I let it idle for 30 minutes or so (per honda service manual) I did varying revs and a lot of engine braking since I am aware of the vacuum that is created forcing the rings outward to wear evenly against the hone. The guy that "helped" me insisted I baby it though so if you look at previous posts you can see the timeline I used and how easy I took it. My gut said to run it hard though. Im just now wondering if he installed the rings correctly.

AFR is perfect at idle and richens up to about 13.5 to 14 when wot. The tune is good imo. Only time it ever even crosses into red is when I let off the throttle completely (of course)

If replacing rings is the worst thing that happens then im ok with that. I sure as **** dont want to, but I really dont want to find out anything worse. Oh yea, head was completly rebuilt, so brand new valve seals were installed. Leak down will be done tomorrow. Although I dont have a gauge to tell me % leaking by, I will still be able to hear where its coming from. I'll just have to control pressure on the compressor. I do have the adapter to screw into spark plug holes though.

halfakneegrow

the higher the number the leaner afr is.. 14.7 is ideal idle and 13.3-13.6 is ideal for wot

greatnightmare

I know... 14.7 to 14.9 at idle 13.5ish at WOT is what mine reads.

greatnightmare

So I had my wife drive my car as I followed her and there is no smoke at idle and not even while she was accelerating, only when she let off the throttle a light puff came out. I think im gonna give it some more time and see what happens before I rip it all apart. If its the same next weekend I will go through with it.

m4xwellmurd3r

Breaking engines in easy is how NOT to get good ring seal. Breaking in hard is by far the best way to get the ringd to seat fast and solid. I havent comp tested my engine but I know the only reason why I lose oil is from an exhaust cam seal leak and oil pan leak lol.

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm


Btw the quick puff on deaccel might be oil being sucked in from the pcv line. Im in the process of building a couple diy catch cans to deal with that issue cause I know thats why my engine is pulling oil (the lines themselves have oil in them from being sucked through)

greatnightmare

Yea. I took my "friends" advice even though my gut told me to break it in hard. You live and you learn I guess. I changed pcv out and it seemed to make it better, but not completely.

wunfstgsr

You should see 12.5 at wot!! 13.5 is a bit to lean for WOT. but its not a big deal at all.

wunfstgsr

This is a tell tale sign of valve seals leaking! confirm with a leak down test.

good news is that you can replace the seals with out removing the head. Theres a special tool that makes this very easy. Just need a air compressor and a fitting from a compression tester and screw it in the spark hole and give it compressed air to keep the valves from dropping you can tie some string on the end of the valve to be safe and replace the seal and continue to the next cylinders one at a time. I used this when i upgraded my Cam shafts and valve springs and retainers.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HPT-Valve-Spring-Compressor-Tool-B-Series-B16-B18-H22-/111261659764?hash=item19e7b63274&item=111261659764&pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr

greatnightmare

Yea I am aware of being able to do valve seals that way....the machine shop installed brand new valve seals when they did the valve job. They also replaced two valve guides that were worn

wunfstgsr

could also be those valve guides he replaced..

greatnightmare

Well I supplied them. And they were brand new, and they all looked to be installed properly, and they looked completely seated. Ill have to do a leak down to find out if its my rings or not

greatnightmare

So im gonna tare down again this weekend. I did a leak down test, although my 2nd gauge is broke, so I couldnt see how much it was losing. What I did find out was;

1- very slightly out of the crankcase
2- heard slightly in exhaust, and slightly in adjacent spark plug tube(cyl 3)
3- heard in exhaust, even more audible in adjacent sparkplug tube (cyl 2)
4- very slightly out of crankcase

So I believe the head gasket may be damaged in between 2 and 3, or something is damaged with those valves. Im leaning more towards head gasket failure between cylinders though just because I cant see air getting into adjacent combustion chamber in 2 and 3 by a valve problem. I will check for straightness on head and block or if the head was torqued down enough. The mechanic that was "helping" me did not use moly on the top threads of arp studs I dont believe but it was definitely used on threads going into the block. Anyways, I will update when I figure this out.

wunfstgsr

He didn't use the molly lube on the nuts? thats very important, did he use the proper weight oil instead at least?

greatnightmare

I wish I knew man. But I asked him if he used moly and he said no. I should have it apart tomorrow/ saturday so I will see the condition then.

wunfstgsr

Its cool you live and learn. Might not be the main cause but might have something to do with it.