calguino

Hey guys, new to Honda Tech. I'm ase certified and have been running my repair business for 6 years now, rebuild any motor from Honda/Toyota to Mercedes/BMW, on just about a weekly basis. But this has got me stumped

The build;

B18B LS
LS trans
20g TD05 turbo
Walbro 255 fuel pump
AEM fuel rail
AEM fuel regulator
880cc Injectors, 93 octane fuel
Full 3 inch open exhaust
ARP head studs
Oem head gasket
Glowshift fuel pressure, oil pressure, boost/vac, and wideband gauges

Story behind motor;

I had the machine shop redo a spare block I had. They installed new Clevite bearings, new set of rings (Hastings), honed block, dialed in all the clearances, etc.. I took that block, installed arp head studs, the OEM gasket, and a head I had rebuilt about a year ago (about 1000 miles on it... Still practically new)
I did the hard breakin procedure (made sure to keep out of boost) and took it to get tuned.. Well right before I got tuned, I checked compression and showed 180-165-65-175... Pulled motor apart, had cracked ring lands on 3 Pistons, and go figure all 3 of those cylinders, had dropped valve guides in the head.

Took the block and another set of Pistons to get reinstalled, got another new head (covered under warranty) and they rehoned the block, installed another set of rings and here I am today, 300 miles after the SECOND rebuild, trying to figure out where burning oil.

It only happens after deceleration.. I drove around for about and hour or two this morning, making sure to avoid deceleration, and I couldn't get it to smoke. The instant I decelerate, I can smell burning oil, and shortly after can see huge clouds of blue smoke shoot out the exhaust.

I've already cleaned the intercooler and piping of oil, as I had blown through turbo seals in my last turbo. Have a brand new turbo, and there's nontrace of oil in the pipes after they were cleaned. Regardless I drove a while with the piping disconnected at the throttle body and the smoke didnt change.

I had the valve cover breather
And pcv valve hole open, and then installed a pcv valve... Absolutely no change.

There's mo excessive blow-by... The normal small amount. No smoke coming out of oil cap.

There isn't any smoke whatsoever when I crank the car up in the mornings, BUT it does hesitate to start in the mornings.

My issue is im scared to tune it with oil burning, as it seems to not burn out the exhaust, but I'm the cylinders then out the exhaust. Goodbye octane rating!

Anyone ever experience this, or can provide some insight on what's going on??

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

On deceleration, I'd say look towards the head. Specifically, towards the valve seals and guides..I'd bet ya those valve seals need to be checked and replaced..You won't see signs of oil anywhere else.

oifovo

As above I'd also suggest looking at valve stem seals/valve guides. Is the head brand new or reconditioned? It will be burning small amounts of oil even when running, the reason why you can see it after deceleration is that as there is no ignition occurring during deceleration the oil that seeps around the valve seals collects in the cylinders and exhaust ports and as you get back on the gas it all burns at the same time.

calguino

Man, you guys hit the nail on the "head" lol thanks. It makes complete sense. I'm going to remove/disassemble the head and check the guides, install another set of seals.
Answer to the above question, the head was reconditioned.. I've never gotten a bad head from this shop, but everyone makes mistakes! I'll keep you guys posted, let you know what I find

turbohatch96y7

iTrader: (15)

Have you done a leak down test yet?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

"reconditioned" could mean a lot of things. that's a very open term used by many shops. that doesn't necessarily include checking guides and seals.

A leakdown test is fine and all, but from the symptoms he seems to be exhibiting, removing the head altogether to take to the machine shop and reinstall valve stem seals, (Or if he's so inclined, have it done himself, which takes a lot longer..) and see if the guides are within good spec for turbocharging (which is not a bad thing)

Good luck to you.. Hope it pans out well.

Runnerdown

Let's not forget the cylinder itself creates the vacuum so focusing on the head doesn't make a lot of sense. Most times you have ring damage or poor ring seal on a Honda you will get the smoke after deceleration. Either way pull the head off and check everything carefully.

calguino

My thought is, when I'm decelerating, I get about 28 psi of vacuum. I'm thinking while the Intake valve is closed, that 28 psi of load is applied to the intake valve seals/guides and sucks through oil through, causing it to puddle on the intake valve until it opens, allows the oil into the cylinder, further puddling until fuel/ignition cuts back on. Which is maybe why the smoke appears directly after decelerating, not during.

On first startup I made sure not to allow idle too long, and avoided cruising speeds and steady rpm. I decelerated to a stop every time for the first 30-40 miles... If the rings didn't seat, don't you guys think I would burn oil on acceleration at least, whether I decelerate or not? Due to the compression rings not seating and allowing too much oil to stay behind in the cylinders??

calguino

By the way, spoke to machine shop that did the head today. They said they disassemble the head, hot tank, check for damaged valves, "check for valve guide abnormal wear or play" and reassemble the head with new "Viton" valve stem seals. Oh how comforting -.- funny think is last time I did the head for a customers integra, b18b1, the stem seals were blue (felpro maybe? Lmao..) and the ones on my current head are brown..

I can't help but feel im getting the runaround... Fml

calguino

No sir.. I guess that would tell me the condition of the rings and if they seated -.- I'll do that in the next couple days, but definitely before I remove the cylinder head

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Well, the color may not indicate anything unless they stated they used OEM valve seals. that's when you get concerned. It could be that they are the wrong size. Some shops use VTEC seals in non-vtec heads, and vice-versa. that DOES make a difference.

Make sure that the valve seals used were the correct size for both intake and exhaust.

I still think its in the head more than the block on the shear fact that this is only occurring during deceleration.

blackeg

pull the manifolds and check for oil at the base of the guide in the ports, and see if you can see any of it running down the sides/back of the ports and possibly collecting on the top of the valve.

ive had these issues before with oem seals. i started using the supertech ones and they seem to do the trick if in fact it was a valve seal issue.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

He doesn't have OEM seals though. He may OEM sized seals. but not the colors he's stating.

But I do agree with your diagnosis.

calguino

Yeah, true. I guess honda wouldn't just wake up one day and decide to make pink valve seals LOL

calguino

Funny you said that, I was looking at the supertech bronze valve guides supertech valve seals... Seals I have done many times, but guides, never.. Is it as simple as disassembly, and tapping the old ones out and new ones in? Cause if I do see oil outta there, is prefer doing them myself... Just never personally had this type of issue before.

By the way guys, had a slight injury a couple days ago and hospital says I shouldn't bend or lift for a week so I probably won't disassemble till mid this week.

Silent_Bob69

my car does the same thing, only smokes on engine decel. didn't do it when it was naturally aspirated, started after the turbo was installed. my guess is it's scavenging oil from the turbo under engine decel, but I'm not a rocket scientist. it's a Turbo Exchange rebuilt Garrett 57trim, 3an feed and 10an return. I fixed this by pushing the clutch in whenever I'm off throttle.

calguino

Had that issue with my old 16g turbo before it completely crapped out. Hence the upgrades 20g I'm running now.. Checked intercooler piping and was dry, as was the intercooler itself.

calguino

I did a leak down test, and there was minimal loss, and even on all 4 cylinders. The gauge broke so I don't have a number, but I'm certain it was extremely low, as I barely heard the slightest hiss coming from the pcv port.

So I took off the manifolds, and they were completely dry. As were the valves and guides. Then it hit me, I've been driving for over a week, completely avoiding deceleration. So I put it back together, drove a mile or two making sure to aggressively decelerate, and Let it cool down.

Removed exhaist manifold, and saw oil. Looked down spark plug holes, oil. Looked into intake ports and inside manifold, more oil. Fresh and clear..

So I removed the head, and here's what I found; sorry for the terrible quality. But clearly you can see all 4 cylinders covered in a layer of oil. Cylinder 3 being the worst;



Here's a view of cyl 3 intake port.. They all looked similar, but this was the worst. The entire port is covered in fresh oil, hence the yellow shade. And that shiny spot on the valves? A nasty puddle of oil;




Intake valves immediately after disassembly; all were puddled again cyl 3 being the worst;



So, all the valve guides were new as I was told.. Very flexible, wrapped around the valves (not super tight.. But a seal nonetheless) surprisingly though the intake guides had no noticeable play, but the exhaust guides had a small amount of play...

There was however a heavy coat of oil between the intake guides and the valves, and a very thin layer of oil between the exhaust guides and the valves..

Is it safe to say that cheap valve seals are the culprit?? I'm not running a pcv valve, the intercooler/pipes are dry, and hone is still nice and rough.

calguino

Sorry, valve seals were new not guides.

LightningTeg

The machine shop I just had my head sent to said exhaust guides are usually the ones that need replaced 90% of the time. My particular head needed all 8 and 1 on the intake so I had him do them all.

turbohatch96y7

iTrader: (15)

Hard to believe you had a good seal with all that oil everywhere


you took it apart way too soon. Shouldve done more tests

calguino

Been testing weeks before I posted lol.
Head is at machine shop, getting all 16 guides, seals and valves replaced with supertech. The valve stems all had rough spots on them, from the looks of it from improper machining.. Causing abnormal/premature wear on the seals. Machine shop said good seals will hold the valve in place, but all my intakes slid right out the head.

Pretty certain this has been my issue the whole time, as I'm not running a pcv valve, and throttle body was dry. No other possible place oil could come from, and puddle on intake valves. Obviously when the intake valve opens, air gets sucked into the combustion chamber, not outward through the intake... I'll let u guys know the outcome when I get the head back next weekend

DDTECH

Valve seals. Deaccel creates vacuum, on coast downs. VS leaking will primary be your cause. Look at valveguide movement as well and make sure the seals are pressed all the way down.

calguino

Here we go again.. I ordered supertech valve guides, seals, and valves. Machine shop did a 3 angle valve job. Reinstalled head and guess what ? Still smoke after deceleration -.- I'm at a loss here... I wouldn't even know what to check this time o.O

turbohatch96y7

iTrader: (15)