Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods
09-25-2005, 07:20 PM
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Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods
I'm starting to save up for my winter/early spring D16Z6 motor buildup so I can boost more.
I have a general idea as to what I want my build to be.
-Stronger rods (shot peened or Eagle)
-Pistons (more than likely Arias)
-Debating on whether or not to sleeve the block
Money isn't exactly "tight", but I am on a semi-budget. I am wondering how strong a set of stock D16Z6 rods would be if I were to have them shot-peened, as I have a spare set of pistons/rods in my garage. And how much it would cost.
Thanks
Nick
I have a general idea as to what I want my build to be.
-Stronger rods (shot peened or Eagle)
-Pistons (more than likely Arias)
-Debating on whether or not to sleeve the block
Money isn't exactly "tight", but I am on a semi-budget. I am wondering how strong a set of stock D16Z6 rods would be if I were to have them shot-peened, as I have a spare set of pistons/rods in my garage. And how much it would cost.
Thanks
Nick
09-25-2005, 07:32 PM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (nota-eg)
dont even deal with the stock rods it just isnt worth it, if you are on a budget i suggest the tunertoys rods, they come with arp 2000 bolts and they are only 235 shipped. How much power are you looking to get the stock d16 sleeves are good to about 400hp and those rods should be able to get you there. Arias pistons are good, i heard some bad things about srp pistons, and cp and wiseco pistons are always a good choice. As for sleeving i would either fill the block, or post it, since sleeving does cost an arm and a leg.
good luck with the build
good luck with the build
09-25-2005, 07:41 PM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (EnzoSpeed)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EnzoSpeed »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Used Crower D16 rods pop up rather frequently on ebay for $200.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hella_JDM »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">be very carefull buying used internals.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I thought of both of those.
Can you explain filling the block? And the general cost?
My build will probably go to 200-300 (still haven't really decided)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hella_JDM »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">be very carefull buying used internals.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I thought of both of those.
Can you explain filling the block? And the general cost?
My build will probably go to 200-300 (still haven't really decided)
09-25-2005, 07:45 PM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (nota-eg)
LS rods fit in with minor massaging, visibly larger, known stronger.
Main problem with bigger power D-series is the smaller bore which gives you a smaller combustion chamber. You hit critical densities and pressure where knock occurs sooner, and said pressures don't have as much piston face to push against as B-series, so don't make as much power for a given average combustion pressure. Run forgings, or do something like water injection under boost that is known to significantly cool the chamber temps - cooler aluminum (piston) is stronger aluminum. Dropping CR does much the same thing - bigger combustion chamber nets you a larger area for fuel-air to occupy, you don't hit knock limit's critical mass quite so quickly.
Sleeving is expensive. Devcon liquid aluminum epoxy is $42. Read the homemadeturbo.com block pouring thread and think about it. Beau's racecar's B16 was poured, made 470 whp over 200 miles of 1/4 mile trailerqueen excitement.
I'm shooting for 300 on water injection, non-IC, with much of the same stuff I mention above. Have the assembled A6 bottom end with LS rods and GX pistons sitting here. With the Z6 head that nets 12.2:1 CR. I'll probably open up the combustion chamber a little bit to drop it down to 11.5:1, and lie that I have 12.2:1. Shhh, don't tell anybody, that's our secret. I'd rather have 8.5 to 9:1 CR, but GX pistons fit directly to the LS rods without th rebushing nonsense, and are cheap. "Cheap is a quality overcoming many faults." Water injection will cool the combustion chamber to the point where increased CR means next to nothing, but in order to keep the exhaust valve temps as low as I'd like the volume of water I'd inject starts eating up combustion chamber volume, and I don't have much of that with high CR.
Main problem with bigger power D-series is the smaller bore which gives you a smaller combustion chamber. You hit critical densities and pressure where knock occurs sooner, and said pressures don't have as much piston face to push against as B-series, so don't make as much power for a given average combustion pressure. Run forgings, or do something like water injection under boost that is known to significantly cool the chamber temps - cooler aluminum (piston) is stronger aluminum. Dropping CR does much the same thing - bigger combustion chamber nets you a larger area for fuel-air to occupy, you don't hit knock limit's critical mass quite so quickly.
Sleeving is expensive. Devcon liquid aluminum epoxy is $42. Read the homemadeturbo.com block pouring thread and think about it. Beau's racecar's B16 was poured, made 470 whp over 200 miles of 1/4 mile trailerqueen excitement.
I'm shooting for 300 on water injection, non-IC, with much of the same stuff I mention above. Have the assembled A6 bottom end with LS rods and GX pistons sitting here. With the Z6 head that nets 12.2:1 CR. I'll probably open up the combustion chamber a little bit to drop it down to 11.5:1, and lie that I have 12.2:1. Shhh, don't tell anybody, that's our secret. I'd rather have 8.5 to 9:1 CR, but GX pistons fit directly to the LS rods without th rebushing nonsense, and are cheap. "Cheap is a quality overcoming many faults." Water injection will cool the combustion chamber to the point where increased CR means next to nothing, but in order to keep the exhaust valve temps as low as I'd like the volume of water I'd inject starts eating up combustion chamber volume, and I don't have much of that with high CR.
09-25-2005, 07:49 PM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (J. Davis)
J. Davis, what exactly would i have to do to get LS rods to fit? I heard something about block notching, but there isn't anywhere in my area that would know what to do. I actually had a guy offer me shot-peened LS rods cheap, but I didn't want to get the block notched.
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09-25-2005, 07:57 PM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (Hella_JDM)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hella_JDM »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">be very carefull buying used internals.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's right, I did buy new bolts for mine just to be safe. So I guess the real cost is $200 (rods) + $100 (new bolts). But $300 is still much less than the $700 MSRP.
That's right, I did buy new bolts for mine just to be safe. So I guess the real cost is $200 (rods) + $100 (new bolts). But $300 is still much less than the $700 MSRP.
09-25-2005, 08:03 PM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (Hella_JDM)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hella_JDM »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">be very carefull buying used internals.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm very leery of buying used parts. Bought a turbo setup from a member (wont name names, since I haven't seen him in at least 6 months). Turbo has an oil leak that is leaking into my charge piping, BOV had a tear in the rubber stuff, so I had to buy a new one, blah blah blah. New or from known people from now on. (Like Hella_JDM)
I'm very leery of buying used parts. Bought a turbo setup from a member (wont name names, since I haven't seen him in at least 6 months). Turbo has an oil leak that is leaking into my charge piping, BOV had a tear in the rubber stuff, so I had to buy a new one, blah blah blah. New or from known people from now on. (Like Hella_JDM)
09-25-2005, 08:05 PM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (nota-eg)
No notching needed.
The big end needs to be slimmed ~0.022" on each side to mate with the D16 crankshaft.
The small end needs to be bushed from 21 mm B-series to 19 mm D-series wristpin spec, for anything except 98-00 Civic GX piston. You can not run a press fit pin with bushings, so that makes running OEM pistons a bit wierd.
Your piston options with LS rods:
- 98-00 GX pistons, they have 21 mm wristpins, so forgo the bushing of the small end of the LS rod. $25.43/per at Honda employee cost (THANK YOU TURBO SAM), just buy the $50 Hastings rings for a D16, they are sourced from the same ring manufacturer. The GX pistons have a 5.5 cc dome, resulting in 12.5:1 CR with a Y5/Y7/Y8 head. 12.2:1 with Z6 and an A6 block which has 0.020" more deck height than Z6. Might be problematic for you, think about it. Will drop CR in a ZC, though, #1 budget option for those.
- Aftermarket forgings.
- Vitaras. STD size Vitaras in a stock bore are a sure way to have too much piston-bore clearance and melt multiple pistons, they are smaller than STD Honduh, "75 mm" is just an "approximate" bore measurement. The cheap aftermarket Vitara reroductions offer them in ludicrous oversize which thins an already weak sleeve. Might see what the dealer wants for a .25 mm o/s if they carry such a thing. Dunno what the dealer does to the cheap appeal. might be scary after you talk to them.
- Arias quoted $11 per piston to have OEM Honda D16 pistons modified for circlips so you can run a floating pin with a bushed rod. After the cost and hassle, might not be worth the fiddly-******* around.
Hope that sums your alternatives pretty well.
The big end needs to be slimmed ~0.022" on each side to mate with the D16 crankshaft.
The small end needs to be bushed from 21 mm B-series to 19 mm D-series wristpin spec, for anything except 98-00 Civic GX piston. You can not run a press fit pin with bushings, so that makes running OEM pistons a bit wierd.
Your piston options with LS rods:
- 98-00 GX pistons, they have 21 mm wristpins, so forgo the bushing of the small end of the LS rod. $25.43/per at Honda employee cost (THANK YOU TURBO SAM), just buy the $50 Hastings rings for a D16, they are sourced from the same ring manufacturer. The GX pistons have a 5.5 cc dome, resulting in 12.5:1 CR with a Y5/Y7/Y8 head. 12.2:1 with Z6 and an A6 block which has 0.020" more deck height than Z6. Might be problematic for you, think about it. Will drop CR in a ZC, though, #1 budget option for those.
- Aftermarket forgings.
- Vitaras. STD size Vitaras in a stock bore are a sure way to have too much piston-bore clearance and melt multiple pistons, they are smaller than STD Honduh, "75 mm" is just an "approximate" bore measurement. The cheap aftermarket Vitara reroductions offer them in ludicrous oversize which thins an already weak sleeve. Might see what the dealer wants for a .25 mm o/s if they carry such a thing. Dunno what the dealer does to the cheap appeal. might be scary after you talk to them.
- Arias quoted $11 per piston to have OEM Honda D16 pistons modified for circlips so you can run a floating pin with a bushed rod. After the cost and hassle, might not be worth the fiddly-******* around.
Hope that sums your alternatives pretty well.
09-25-2005, 08:09 PM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (J. Davis)
I understand what you said about the rods, but the rest is kind of a blur (getting tired, hard to concentrate)
What do you mean by aftermarket forgings? Like aftermarket pistons, or having my stock ones forged?
What do you mean by aftermarket forgings? Like aftermarket pistons, or having my stock ones forged?
09-25-2005, 08:18 PM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (nota-eg)
Stockers are hyper castings. You can't forge an already machined piece... you forge a lump of metal and then finish machine it.
If you're tired, go to bed. Don't try to make up your mind in one night.
If you're tired, go to bed. Don't try to make up your mind in one night.
09-25-2005, 09:04 PM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (J. Davis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Don't try to make up your mind in one night.</TD></TR></TABLE>
best advice so far
As for block filling you are essentially making a block guard that is 2 inches tall and wont cause the sleeves to warp or move because it is poured in as a liquid, once that is done you drill coolant passages in it in the stock locations. This way of reinforcing the block is pretty good but i dont know if i would feel comfortable pouring liquid aluminum in my block with rock salt lol (read the hmt thread on it you'll understadn then).
best advice so far
As for block filling you are essentially making a block guard that is 2 inches tall and wont cause the sleeves to warp or move because it is poured in as a liquid, once that is done you drill coolant passages in it in the stock locations. This way of reinforcing the block is pretty good but i dont know if i would feel comfortable pouring liquid aluminum in my block with rock salt lol (read the hmt thread on it you'll understadn then).
09-25-2005, 09:33 PM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (Hella_JDM)
It's an epoxy with the same coefficient of expansion as aluminum. The salt is used as a "floor" to pour the epoxy on until it dries, then you drill coolant holes and flush the salt out.
b
b
09-26-2005, 05:42 AM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (J. Davis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The salt is used as a "floor" to pour the epoxy on until it dries, then you drill coolant holes and flush the salt out.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Or you use tubes that wont disintegrate from the heat of the epoxy as it hardens and then all you have to do is flush the salt out with water
JD...may I ask, why non-intercooled? I assume the answer will be "because I can" or "because thats what i want to try" but was curious.
Or you use tubes that wont disintegrate from the heat of the epoxy as it hardens and then all you have to do is flush the salt out with water
JD...may I ask, why non-intercooled? I assume the answer will be "because I can" or "because thats what i want to try" but was curious.
09-26-2005, 08:46 AM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (nota-eg)
I would def go with something forged...I happen to have a set of tuner toys rods if your interested..
09-26-2005, 09:35 AM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (xenocron)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xenocron »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">JD...may I ask, why non-intercooled? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Intercoolers have a cosmetic effect on knock limit by cooling charge air. Water injection does nothing to the charge air temps, instead it yanks heat out of the engine itself. Now, are we worried about air being too hot, or are we worried about the engine getting too hot? Seemed like a pretty cut and dry situation.
Intercoolers have a cosmetic effect on knock limit by cooling charge air. Water injection does nothing to the charge air temps, instead it yanks heat out of the engine itself. Now, are we worried about air being too hot, or are we worried about the engine getting too hot? Seemed like a pretty cut and dry situation.
09-26-2005, 11:35 AM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (J. Davis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Intercoolers have a cosmetic effect on knock limit by cooling charge air. Water injection does nothing to the charge air temps, instead it yanks heat out of the engine itself. Now, are we worried about air being too hot, or are we worried about the engine getting too hot? Seemed like a pretty cut and dry situation.</TD></TR></TABLE>
let me translate
"Because i can"
Intercoolers have a cosmetic effect on knock limit by cooling charge air. Water injection does nothing to the charge air temps, instead it yanks heat out of the engine itself. Now, are we worried about air being too hot, or are we worried about the engine getting too hot? Seemed like a pretty cut and dry situation.</TD></TR></TABLE>
let me translate
"Because i can"
09-26-2005, 11:46 AM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (Soccerking3000)
I have a water injection kit from my charger setup and was thinking about utilizing it on my turbo Y8.
Its ICed, but im trying to get above 200whp out of a 14b, so the charge temps are still going to be outragous.
Is the WI worth doing with the IC?
Its ICed, but im trying to get above 200whp out of a 14b, so the charge temps are still going to be outragous.
Is the WI worth doing with the IC?
09-26-2005, 12:13 PM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (93supercoupe)
Yup.
Read the Water Injection Myth post on homemadeturbo.com in Engine Management Forum. The two NACA papers mentioned will tell you everything you need to know, right down to expected gains per water-fuel ratio.
Read the Water Injection Myth post on homemadeturbo.com in Engine Management Forum. The two NACA papers mentioned will tell you everything you need to know, right down to expected gains per water-fuel ratio.
09-26-2005, 12:23 PM
#22
Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (J. Davis)
I know the general rule of thumb is every 10 degrees or so you lower air temps, adds 1 Hp (or whatever the rule is).
Cooling the air makes it denser though which is the real purpose behind intercooling no? Cooling the air via IC before shoving it into the combustion chamber not only gives you more O2 molecules, but also gives you a slight bit of knock protection.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Intercoolers have a cosmetic effect on knock limit by cooling charge air. Water injection does nothing to the charge air temps, instead it yanks heat out of the engine itself. Now, are we worried about air being too hot, or are we worried about the engine getting too hot? Seemed like a pretty cut and dry situation.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Cooling the air makes it denser though which is the real purpose behind intercooling no? Cooling the air via IC before shoving it into the combustion chamber not only gives you more O2 molecules, but also gives you a slight bit of knock protection.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Intercoolers have a cosmetic effect on knock limit by cooling charge air. Water injection does nothing to the charge air temps, instead it yanks heat out of the engine itself. Now, are we worried about air being too hot, or are we worried about the engine getting too hot? Seemed like a pretty cut and dry situation.</TD></TR></TABLE>
09-26-2005, 01:10 PM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (xenocron)
I'm definately going to look into block filling.
Don't worry guys, I'm not trying to make up my mind fast (I've got a few months to plan things out). I just didn't know how strong shot-peened stock rods would be.
I was just beat and my comprehension was getting very shitty. Well, have class again tonight so I'll check back for any new info then.
BTW- Thanks guys. You guys are much more helpful than the EG/EK forum. Meaning you guys answer a person's questions instead of starting a ****-storm of BS.
Don't worry guys, I'm not trying to make up my mind fast (I've got a few months to plan things out). I just didn't know how strong shot-peened stock rods would be.
I was just beat and my comprehension was getting very shitty. Well, have class again tonight so I'll check back for any new info then.
BTW- Thanks guys. You guys are much more helpful than the EG/EK forum. Meaning you guys answer a person's questions instead of starting a ****-storm of BS.
09-26-2005, 02:10 PM
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Re: Stock Shot Peened Rods vs Eagle Rods (Soccerking3000)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Soccerking3000 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the eg/ek forum in my birthplace lol</TD></TR></TABLE>
Lol, I pretty much live in that forum. But awhile back I started to migrate more to the FI forum, and just recently I've started spending time in the Welding/Fabrication forum.
The later two of the three seem to be much more relaxed, noob free, and helpful.
I have also been thinking about upgrading my valvetrain and going with something like a Skunk 2 Turbo cam. I don't think I would have to go with forged internals for that, but I'm not 100% sure.
Again, I'm in no rush to make up my mind 100% and start buying parts. I'm going to spend a lot of time looking into what I really want out of the car, what funds I have, and look into the pros/cons of different companies. I probably won't even start buying parts until January/February.
Lol, I pretty much live in that forum. But awhile back I started to migrate more to the FI forum, and just recently I've started spending time in the Welding/Fabrication forum.
The later two of the three seem to be much more relaxed, noob free, and helpful.
I have also been thinking about upgrading my valvetrain and going with something like a Skunk 2 Turbo cam. I don't think I would have to go with forged internals for that, but I'm not 100% sure.
Again, I'm in no rush to make up my mind 100% and start buying parts. I'm going to spend a lot of time looking into what I really want out of the car, what funds I have, and look into the pros/cons of different companies. I probably won't even start buying parts until January/February.