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What going to be the most responsive, fast spooling, best usable powerband for an F20B, application circuit racing, road racing and tarmac rallies
Max rpm 8,500 / 2050cc
1997 EK Civic Hatch 2 Door
Using T4 twin scroll exhaust housing
GTX3067R or similar. Stay T3 .63A/R. T4 divided will not help "spool", as it is not a "twin scroll, as you're being told. We use a similar Garrett turbocharger that is in between the GTX3067R and the GTX3071R called the "Banshee". Does the same thing for 2 litre engines with cylinder head efficiencies of .78 and higher no problem. Banshee has no "maps" because it was specially configured.
An EFR7163 could work, but should stay T3 as well due to the exhaust wheel size. T4 is an actual twin scroll housing, but again, may not help in every way you think.
And yes, I'm speaking from racing experience and not just the compressor maps. What you're failing to see are the turbine gas flow maps that work with the turbine wheel's effectiveness.
The Shodan is the authority, I'd suggest you listen to his advice ;-)
Are you already locked into using a T4 housing due to a manifold or some other reason ? If not then look at the EFR7163 in Vband/T25 or the GTX3067R in Vband/T3. That in essence is what he has advised you to do.
The GTX2867 and EFR 6758 have proved to be very effective on the FA20 (BRZ/FR-S/86) for your target output and application with a broad powerband, but I do suspect they have a higher VE due to dual AVCS, Direct Injection and high static compression ratio and don't rev as high as you planning to (7500 vs 8500 rpm).
I figure this is why The Shodan is suggesting larger turbine wheel variants to improve high rpm efficiency and reduce backpressure.
Last edited by extremeracer; 05-17-2016 at 02:24 AM.
GTX3067R or similar. Stay T3 .63A/R. T4 divided will not help "spool", as it is not a "twin scroll, as you're being told. We use a similar Garrett turbocharger that is in between the GTX3067R and the GTX3071R called the "Banshee". Does the same thing for 2 litre engines with cylinder head efficiencies of .78 and higher no problem. Banshee has no "maps" because it was specially configured.
An EFR7163 could work, but should stay T3 as well due to the exhaust wheel size. T4 is an actual twin scroll housing, but again, may not help in every way you think.
And yes, I'm speaking from racing experience and not just the compressor maps. What you're failing to see are the turbine gas flow maps that work with the turbine wheel's effectiveness.
Either the GTX3067 or EFR6757 seem great options, do I definitely need an .63A/R will the .80 A/R make the turbo laggie, I was wanting the twin scroll .80A/R T4 housing and will get a twin scroll manifold made.
Just need a awesome 400hp turbo with a little room to play with, in case I need more later on and don't won't to have to run it @25-30psi to get 400hp or is that the normal with small responsive units like these.
I actually have an CBRD Full BBK EVO 9 10.5cm hot side, it turbo flows 47lb/min and EVO's are getting 400whp out of them with supported mods, but its best utilized on my EVO 5.
But B20MTR believes that using a larger T4 is going to move like the smaller T3, whether or not it is a true twin scroll turbine housing or not. I'm trying to assist him by saying simply using the larger housing with a comparable exhaust wheel won't help in the same way as he thinks the twin scroll effects would with a larger turbocharger. Twin scroll chargers and their benefits are best left to turbochargers under 50lbs/min at 2.0PR-2.5PRs
Someone recently asked me as to what is the difference between a divided housing and a twin scroll housing and why I believe they are not the same.
I've gone through that argument for years on EvolutionM.net, NWP4LIFE and countless others only for the people on those forums have digested the marketing "kool-aid" that Full-Race created back in 2004 to the point of fusion:. So, like most that have been in this arena long enough, I gave up trying to educate and inform, and let people do what they want. If they think I'm nuts, well, there's nothing I can really do about it as I'm just too old to care.
Originally Posted by 90teg
I saw what you posted in a EFR thread. Why did you say that the twin scroll was not exactly a twin scroll as he was told on the GTX30 and EFR turbo?
Originally Posted by TheShodan
Because they are not the same. It is a misnomer from Full-Race.com circa 2004.
I've explained in several forums and such over the years. A divided housing is a necessity to becoming a full twin scroll volute, but not a sufficiency in doing so.
A true twin scroll has a full divider for the exhaust pulses at least 180* within the volute
While a simply large DIVIDED housing used on may high torque-low rpm applications like tractor/trucks that most are using on these cars do not. Divided housings only look at the initial throat entry area and converge about an inch into the volute.
In which case, the benefits are negated in some sizings.
No he didn't, he just said it is better for the evo 5...which doesn't mean anything
You should have a sticky for the twin scroll and divided housing difference
Quote
The twin-scroll configuration performed as anticipated. There was more power and torque everywhere in the powerband. While there was an increase in peak power and peak torque figures, it was the increase in both between 3,500 and 6,000 RPM that was most impressive. More power and torque could be realized because there was more boost at the same engine speed with the twin scroll versus the single scroll.
From 3,000 to 4,900 RPM, the increase in torque and power output grew as the engine speed climbed. The 4.8-percent increase at 3,000 RPM was bettered by 11.5-percent increase at 3,500 RPM. The 16.3-percent increase at 4,000 RPM was beaten by the 21.1% increase at 4,500 RPM. At 4,500 RPM, that large percentage increase translated into an additional 50.7 lb-ft of torque and 43.4 horsepower at the wheels.
From 5,000 to 6,900 RPM, the percent increase in torque and power was still more that the single scroll, but the percent increase in torque and power tapered as the engine speed climbed. The 20.7-percent increase at 5,000 RPM was followed by a 10.8-percent increase at 5,500 RPM. By 6,000 RPM, both the single- and twin-scroll configurations had reached the same boost level. As a result, the percent increase slowed down to 4.1-percent at 6,000 RPM, before trickling down to 2-percent at 6,500 RPM and just 0.2-percent at 7,000 RPM. In terms of power and torque figures, the twin-scroll delivered an additional 61.7 whp and 64.8 lb-ft of torque at 5,000 RPM. This tapered down to just a 7.5 horsepower and 5.8 lb-ft torque gain at 6,900 RPM.
Again. . You have your options. They did their tests, we did ours on the circuit with telemetry logs.
But there ate so many additional variables that aren't being accounted for. I'm not saying that they are incorrect, just different testing environments.
I'll be honest, you won't find your best choice here through all these articles, only the ability to narrow it down with the information you've presented yourself with. That's how we do it now. . You're going to have to either ****, or get off the pot...like everything else that is based in science, it's best guess. Get one, and try it out.
And Geis was correct, I misunderstood his statement.
Where TheSholan says Quote
I wouldn't go topmount either. a .63A/R would do much nicer powerband (I'm at 530whp now). I've experienced the .78A/R divided housing (which originally was only used for the GT3271 journal bearing and is not a twin scroll despite what ATP Turbo claims.). You won't experience any better "spool" than if you stayed .63A/R. And going topmount would just make the powerband even worse.
I understand that I need a .63-.64 A/R now
But will the actual T25 .64 A/R in the EFR6758 be restrictive (talking about the T25 Flange part)?
Is the GTX3067 a true twin scroll in the .61 A/R T3 divided housing or any housings ?
Is .61 A/R going to be to small ?
I think what shodan is saying is you will get better "spool" by picking the correct turbocharger with associated wheel sizes vs this twin scroll nonsense
I think what shodan is saying is you will get better "spool" by picking the correct turbocharger with associated wheel sizes vs this twin scroll nonsense
But will the actual T25 .64 A/R in the EFR6758 be restrictive (talking about the T25 Flange part)?
Is the GTX3067 a true twin scroll in the .61 A/R T3 divided housing or any housings ?
Is .61 A/R going to be to small ?
The .61A/R is a Ni-Resist Garrett Twin Scroll turbine housing, that is not just divided. Those are around $530 alone. They're nice to have but hardly worth the money to think you'll maximize "spool" , when a good boost controller can do the very same thing with more flexibility than being dependent upon one turbine housing to do everything. Turbocharging just doesn't work that way.
The T25 sized turbine housing for the EFR might not be that restrictive, but it depends upon the powerband and purpose you're using. That smaller housing is made for more lower end torque, while the .86A/R is geared for more midrange of the turbocharger depending upon the turbine wheel used.
For the best of two worlds, honestly, stay in a .86A/R T25 or T3 .61A/R-.63A/R
The .61A/R is a Ni-Resist Garrett Twin Scroll turbine housing, that is not just divided. Those are around $530 alone. They're nice to have but hardly worth the money to think you'll maximize "spool" , when a good boost controller can do the very same thing with more flexibility than being dependent upon one turbine housing to do everything. Turbocharging just doesn't work that way.
The T25 sized turbine housing for the EFR might not be that restrictive, but it depends upon the powerband and purpose you're using. That smaller housing is made for more lower end torque, while the .86A/R is geared for more midrange of the turbocharger depending upon the turbine wheel used.
For the best of two worlds, honestly, stay in a .86A/R T25 or T3 .61A/R-.63A/R
The T25 sized turbine housing for the EFR might not be that restrictive, but it depends upon the powerband and purpose you're using. That smaller housing is made for more lower end torque, while the .86A/R is geared for more midrange of the turbocharger depending upon the turbine wheel used.
For the best of two worlds, honestly, stay in a .86A/R T25 or T3 .61A/R-.63A/R
I'm really confused the.....T25, T3, T4 are all just inlet flange sizes correct ? given the same turbine wheel size and A/R exhaust housing
The .61A/R is a Ni-Resist Garrett Twin Scroll turbine housing, that is not just divided. Those are around $530 alone. They're nice to have but hardly worth the money to think you'll maximize "spool" , when a good boost controller can do the very same thing with more flexibility than being dependent upon one turbine housing to do everything. Turbocharging just doesn't work that way.
The T25 sized turbine housing for the EFR might not be that restrictive, but it depends upon the powerband and purpose you're using. That smaller housing is made for more lower end torque, while the .86A/R is geared for more midrange of the turbocharger depending upon the turbine wheel used.
For the best of two worlds, honestly, stay in a .86A/R T25 or T3 .61A/R-.63A/R
Found this on ls1tech.com
Quote A smaller exhaust a/r will almost always cost you power(but make it spool better). A larger exhaust housing means more flow and less back pressure. Which also usually allows more timing, and more power. A/R is just a ratio of area, the v band inlet housing is considered T3 sized. A T3 and T4 housing could have the same A/R but the T4 flow much more.
So V band is considered T3 size ?
So I'm considering going with EFR7163 with v band .85 A/R and a Neukin ram horn manifold with a 44mm external wastegate, because the stock EFR wastegates aren't holding boost.
Neukin is only one I can find who still makes F20B/H22A bottom mount manifolds.
05-15-2016, 06:21 PM
Opinions EFR7163 or GTX7160 @350whp/400hp
You've now got your options....
So, like most that have been in this arena long enough, I gave up trying to educate and inform, and let people do what they want. If they think I'm nuts, well, there's nothing I can really do about it as I'm just too old to care.
lol
