Mase

Well since we destroyed "Mikes01GSR" s thread due to me correcting some wrong info, we are gonna start a new thread.
From this thread:

https://honda-tech.com/zero...age=2


Someone asked this:

Quote, originally posted by son of light »
I am curious about something. Does race gas affect the AFRatio?...I noticed while tuning a friend's car this weekend that when switching from 92octane to 103octane, it seemed to be getting leaner more than usual.
I am seeing the same thing happen with these two maps as well...with the higher octane, it seems to have shifted the curve upward (leaner) a bit. Is this the normal for higher octane?
btw, nice nice #s man...i can only dream!



Then, Boosted hybrid stated this:

Quote, originally posted by boosted hybrid »
Higher octane fuel does not chage the air/fuel ratio per say. Higher octane fuel has a lower density associated to it, and in that respect per injector opening less fuel will be allowed out. The air/fuel lines that are displayed in the dyno graphs reflect soley the fuel tuning, and has nothing to do with the octane of the fuel being used. One thing that bugs me with alot of race gas tunes that people do is using way to high of an octane for the power being made. More power could be obtained at a lower octane level (hint not using c16 for 500whp!) with a factor safety on the tuning actually increasing with the lower octane fuel. Octane is only half of the story when running race gas, the burn rate of the fuel and chemical composition vary greatly between racing fuels. The latent heat of vaporization vary with the chemical composition of the racing fuel, giving substaintal differences with the cylinder temperatures/egt levels. We ended up using a blend of 93/100/110 to equal around 103 octane given the various amounts of the fuel being used.

NOW.

Since boosted hybrid and his little fan club like to switch words around, and try to comment on what their statement really meant. Im gonna cut threw the BS.

We, as a group, are going to discuss this topic in a well mattered manner...but im sure this will be impossible, because you all love to hate me....

but if you feel im wrong, feel free to fight back, you wont win of course, but it will be a nice try j/k


OK, now lets look what he said....

Boosted hybrid's statement of:

Quote, originally posted by boosted hybrid »
Higher octane fuel does not chage the air/fuel ratio per say.
IS in fact false, I dont care if you meant to say something else, u said it. You can argue whatever u want PER SAY. dont sign on to your girlfriends screen name or let her post and explain, be a man, and except the fact you were wrong.

Changing octane fuels will change your reading on your trusty wideband. That is what is at question here. Not what the hell is in a damn physics book.

Now, if you read later in that other post, boosted hybrid and company change their mind and want to believe that the whole mumbo jumbo specific gravity will make the wideband read lean when u use high octane vs lower octane. THIS IS ALSO WRONG...

Lets talk about specific gravity (enough of the hatin).

Yes, most higher octane fuels have a lower specific gravity. This is the weight of the fuel compared to water. If a race gas has a .75 specific gravity, it is 3/4 the weight of the same amount of water at the same temps. A fuel w/ a higher specific gravity will run cooler because a denser fuel will make a richer mixture.

Now, this would lead you to believe by theory since the race gas is less dense, your wideband would display more lean then the pump 93 octane. Well its not that simple.

Lets add Mr. Engine into the equation, but first, in case someone doesnt know, octane is just the resistance to detonation. You will achieve the most power w/ the least amount of octane that does not detonate or knock. Well its more of a risk taking game. I could take a car and make 500 whp on 93. but is it pushing the limits? Of course. why risk it, when u can use some c16 and be safe, sure it may not make as much power as 93, but its gonna be a hell of a lot safer.

lets look deeper into Combustion Characteristics

As gasolines contain mainly hydrocarbons, the only significant variable between different grades is the octane rating of the fuel (most other properties are similar). There are only slight differences in combustion temperatures. Actual temperature in the combustion chamber is also determined by other factors, such as load and Combustion Chamber design and all that crap.

We all know that the tendency to knock increases as spark advance is increased. Idealy, if you use high octane gas, you advance the spark so the flame front starts earlier, and the end gases start forming earlier in the cycle, providing more time for combustion to form before the piston reaches the optimum position for power delivery. High octane fuels produce end gases that take longer to autoignite, so the good flame front reaches and consumes them properly. If you dont advance the spark, it will not complete burn and you will certainly loose power (and thats the main reason you get your different AFR readings)

The timing of the spark is suppose to be advanced so that the fuel/air mixture burns in such a way that maximum pressure of the burning charge is about 15-20 degree after TDC. Knock will occur before this point, usually in the late compression/early power stroke period.

So with all that said, to prove boosted hybrid wrong. Your wideband readout AFR will change, but not lean like he said. (by theory you would think the wideband would read leaner because of the less specific gravity, but its just not the case) If you were to tune the car on 93. drain it add c16. Id be willing to bet $1000 that your AFR wideband gauge will read richer. Dont believe me? Ask the man himself, Tony1. He knows whats up.

We could talk about it more indepth for weeks, but it is finals week and ive shared enough info for now.

Love,

The #1 Stunna

PrecisionH23a

Or ask me, because I know what's up too.

Good job mase.

Hondatec38

And now I will split an atom.

VaporTrail

excellent post Mase. I wish I had the time to visit HT and help explain things to people the way you just did. Nice post

B17aTrbo

Damn Mase...when you own someone you own them hard! Good job Mase

TurboJesse

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B17aTrbo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Damn Mase...when you own someone you own them hard! Good job Mase</TD></TR></TABLE>

that just almost sounded gay

Mase

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mpir3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

that just almost sounded gay </TD></TR></TABLE>


Speaking of cool people, dont u have anything to add to this thread? You're always quick to hate, so lets hear it

Hondatec38

Sooooooo, besides the infamous "per say" sentence, what else did Jeff say that was wrong? Just curious.

Wait A damn second here.....................


Modified by Hondatec38 at 9:55 PM 4/26/2004

TurboJesse

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Speaking of cool people, dont u have anything to add to this thread? You're always quick to hate, so lets hear it </TD></TR></TABLE>

nope nothing to add, just useless comments and post whoring, no different that saying you owned someone hard

Hondatec38

Ok so if you use C16 to make 500whp, what good is that going to do on a daily driver? And the car that was just tuned by Jeff was a daily driver. I would feel better about knowing my car can perform just as well on <U>some kind</U> of a pump gas (which is what this car was tuned on). You get sooo freakin' hyped up on technical **** and dazzle the lay people with big words. Why can't you just accept that someone else on the board is capable tuning and producing good numbers. Instead you just end up paraphrasing and bunch of **** that noboby cares about and getting your running crew to pat you on your ***. I'm tired of the hype. DOWN WITH THE HYPE. How many cars have you repaired? How many have come to you with busted set-ups that you had to fumble through and pull your hair out over something as simple as a ground wire? When does "specific gravity" build an engine for you? Huh? What..... every car you touch goes into the 400Hp club? I don't think so. I'm tired and I said what I felt. I'll be thinking of you when the next H-T tuning fad comes along and I'll say "Remember Mase?"

Mase

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hondatec38 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok so if you use C16 to make 500whp, what good is that going to do on a daily driver? And the car that was just tuned by Jeff was a daily driver. I would feel better about knowing my car can perform just as well on <U>some kind</U> of a pump gas (which is what this car was tuned on). You get sooo freakin' hyped up on technical **** and dazzle the lay people with big words. Why can't you just accept that someone else on the board is capable tuning and producing good numbers. Instead you just end up paraphrasing and bunch of **** that noboby cares about and getting your running crew to pat you on your ***. I'm tired of the hype. DOWN WITH THE HYPE. How many cars have you repaired? How many have come to you with busted set-ups that you had to fumble through and pull your hair out over something as simple as a ground wire? When does "specific gravity" build an engine for you? Huh? What..... every car you touch goes into the 400Hp club? I don't think so. I'm tired and I said what I felt. I'll be thinking of you when the next H-T tuning fad comes along and I'll say "Remember Mase?"</TD></TR></TABLE>


haha you're a little bitch you know that? every car i get, usually has bugs to work out. How many cars have i repaired? **** Ive done so many turbo installs, alarm installs, motor swaps, auto to manual tranny conversions. **** MY OWN DAMN JDM CONVERSION INSTALL. im building two motors at the moment, yeah keep running your mouth.

You dont have to use C16 to make 500 whp. I can probably make 500 whp on 91, who cares. I dont use big words, unless douche bag is a big word....I dont copy out of books, thats other people.

Anyone w/ a brain can tune cars...hell lots of people do it, and most are successful. Its just as difficult to tune 500 whp as it is to tune a 300 whp. Jeff is a good tuner, Willis, he proved uberdata can make 400 whp+, st00pid tunes well, and we cant forget the number 2 tuner, Tony1.....there are countless people who tune, so whats you're point, I dont sit here and say hey you suck at tuning, I chime in when i see wrong or needed info, DEAL WITH IT.


What other hater wants some?

5STAR3

exactly 1 hour 5 minutes.

Silversupragirl

You better add Tony1 to your list as well, you know how mad he gets when he's not mentioned in a "good tuners" list LOL.

Mase

i did, read it, he's number 2

Hondatec38

Hey guess what. I don't care. You're still a fad if you like it or not. Fads die on H-T!

TurboJesse

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
**** Ive done so many turbo installs, alarm installs, motor swaps, auto to manual tranny conversions. **** MY OWN DAMN JDM CONVERSION INSTALL. ?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Do you do remote starters?

Hondatec38

Yo, you install bass and underglo kits?

Mase

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hondatec38 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hey guess what. I don't care. You're still a fad if you like it or not. Fads die on H-T!</TD></TR></TABLE>


yes they do, why do u think this is a hobby. In a years time im getting a real job when i earn my eng degree.

nice try though, thanks for playing.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mpir3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Do you do remote starters?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I do, and ill be sure to bypass the saftey measures on yours so when u accidently hit the button, your car will go through that brick wall in front of it.... It will be fun.

Mase

next person who doesnt make a slight technical post will lose % points.

Hondatec38

I want to be at 90% just like you buddy.

Drew Peacock

Haha I thought everyone knew you get rich A/F readings with higher octane?

racinskittle

Somebody's got a sandy vag today.....

jk haha.

I always wondered this. Glad to know the answer now I always thought it got richer........

Now I got a question for mase

I took a car through emissions testing. It failed on NOX (noxide). It was running 87 octane. NOX is formed when combustion temperatures are too high (past a certain temp, i can look it up if you want b/c I actually forgot ) ANYWAYS.

I thought about it and always had the impression that higher octane would burn richer (lower combustion temperatures. BUT, after it was tested the NOX went UP meaning the combustion temps went UP. Why?



Modified by racinskittle at 4:09 AM 4/27/2004

mskibbz-T

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hondatec38 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hey guess what. I don't care. You're still a fad if you like it or not. Fads die on H-T!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ummm, I typically gain a lot from Mase's technical threads and I respect that he has a deeper knowledge of the engineering that is behind what most of us take for granted. Obtaining a solid understanding of the theory involved in a certain field is only helpful if you can apply it in the real world, which Mase seems to be doing successfully. As long as I can read some interesting tech information, I could give a **** about all of the drama that surrounds it. But what do I know, I love Endyn still...

boosted hybrid

Mase, seriously you act like a two year old. I am going to bite my tongue and be the bigger man here and not turn this into a huge pissing match.

When i have tuned several cars in the past using race gas, the cars ran a hair bit leaner at the same fuel/timing/boost as the pump gas setting. That would indicate to me that the "theory" is proved correct. I am an engineer. I am interested in science, therefore interested in the theory behind why things work. I gave a simple definition of specific gravity to prove what i was trying to convey. Its obviously a very simple concept to grasp, but a fuel with a lower specific gravity will run a hair bit leaner due to not being able to expel as much fuel per fuel injector pulse width. I have monitored this myself with my "little" wideband. The difference is so god damn insignificant, maybe 0.2 to 0.3:1 leaner.

As far as the octane is concerned, using a higher octane than what is necessary can lead to pre-ignition. Detonation wont occur, but pre-ignition will occur. This is the same situation when using alcohol as a fuel type, there is virtually no chance for detonation (although there is still some, there always is), but the pre-ignition is far more of a factor since the burn is so long that residual burn continues after the exhaust valve has closed and the intake charge is let into the engine. The hot spots of the residual particles increases the chance for pre-ignition to occur, this is what happens when you over octane an engine. Yes using c16 will have little room for detonation to occur, but using that high of octane in an engine that cannot properly burn and ignite the entire mixture by the end of the exhaust stroke will lead to pre-ignition. More power is available on lower octane fuel that is sufficient in keeping knock to a minimum. Obviously the engine I tuned had little to no knock, so the 103 octane was appropriate for the power level he achieved. I go about things in a scientific manner, never just applying a general rule or general knowledge to a situation. Each engine is different, each set-up is different. The knock threshold is going to vary tremendously among displacement, compression, cylinder head design, etc, etc, etc. If you want to use c16 gas in all your race gas tunes, that is fine. You do things your way, I do things my way.

As far as my girlfriend goes, she posts and uses the same IP address. What is funny is that I had my IC engines class tonight from 6:45pm to a little after 8:00pm. I wasnt online, she was because she was in the room in front of the computer. My "bandwagon" of merrymen came to my support most likely because you turn every single thread that someone makes good power into a pissing match. Its always you vs the tuner on the thread. Its serioulsy ridiculous. Its pretty obvious you have used Honda-tech as a market tool. This is just another classic example of that. Put everyone else down, promote yourself. Its funny that this site has gone from a wealth of technical knowledge in the last few years I have been a member to me nothing more than a bandwagon, marketing tool for brands, people, parts, etc.

onePOINTsix

great post mase! i gotta read thru this a couple more times to get everything sucked in