wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Ok for starters, this car will be daily driven a good bit but also see lots of hard mountain runs and road course usage so the stock tank really isn't ideal

I have a summit/jegs aluminum 15 gallon fuel cell (two 8an on the sump and two 8an on top one being a vent and return line. It also has the internal foam to prevent fuel sloshing which brings its effective volume down to 12 gallons

I also have an aeromotvie a1000 and regulator that I would like to use as the high pressure supply from swirl pot to motor

My dilemma is what to do for low pressure pumps to feed the swirl pot. Due to the volume of fuel the a1000 moves (I've been looking at pumo flow charts endlessly it seems) it appears that a single pump simply wont supply enough, even at 0 psi.

I'm debating using twin Bosch 044s to feed the tank. That seems to be the only logical solution and tbe 044 has been tried and tested especially on the real Signal Auto R34 my friend owns.

I'm going to do a crude drawing/diagram later on my pc since I'm on my phone but here's how I visualize it

All lines will be hard line until the transition from chassis to motor

2 8an hardlines off the cell sump, one running down left/right each side of the fuel cell with a filter before each pump. These are mounted outside the car offthe fuel cell support brackets. Then I use 8an bulkhead fittings to have the lines enter the car, these are then plumbed into the swirl pot. Overflow/return from swirl to fuel cell will be 8an hard line, as will the return from the motor to the swirl pot.

The a1000 will be 10an from surge tank all the way to both fuel rails (8 injectors) there will be a pre pump filter before the pump. I'm also mounting the a1000 on noise/vibration proof mounts to severely quiet down the pump

Now I'm not sure about running the lines under or in the car. I understand the hazards of having fuel lines in the car but I would build a firewall box around them. My fear of undercar is puncturing, denting/crushing a line. Also I want to run a manual fuel flow cutoff valve in the cockpit within easy reach to shut down fuel flow should an emergency/issues arise. This is much harder to do if the lines are under the car.

But I don't know what size swirl pot I need, nor am I sure at full load/high rpm that the 044s can keep up. All pumps will be hardwired and directly controlled by a relay and switch, no ecu control.

I've also go to figure out where to mount my meth cell and pump in the trunk as well as well as the battery (should be easy)

Obviously I'll have to do some tin work to create a firewall.

Off topic. I also need to find 5 and 10lb (or was it 15?) Fire bottles. I've already acquired my billet cage mount dual fire bottle holder and my fire activation pull is off a ww2 aircraft with a 3 way selector valve to control how much retardant goes where (I'm looking for a second as I dont know if I need a halon tank and an AFFF tank in my setup. So if I had two of these fire activation units I could have 3 way zone control over the halon and AFFF

So I need help sizing a swirl pot

And like I said I'll do a crude diagram to show what I want to do with photo examples

Thanks

tepid1

I'll play....

What fuel? What injectors? What power are you looking to make?

Here's what I'm seeing as a fatal flaw.... the A1000. I would NEVER use one again. They are way too unrelaible. Even with the flow controller. Been there done that.

I understand the demand for a swirl pot, but in all honesty, a swirl pot that has a .5gal capacity will last you minutes before you run it low. A single 044 will do the job and maintain capacity.

With that being said, I really feel like your system plan is backwards.... I would feed the swirl pot with the A1000 and use a 044 or two to get pressure high so you take advantage of proper fuel atomization. This requires a good injector though (ID1000).

There are still too many variables that are not known before you can achieve a solid answer.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I'm using an 8 injector setup with unusual injectors. My shower injectors are designed as such an atomize as a fog, my primaries are from a bike that came with my itbs. So I have 2 rails to feed with a total flow rate right around 800cc at a base pressure of 42.5 lei

All the charts I've looked at indicate a single 044 won't keep up. And the swirl pot will probably need to be bigger than half a gallon

As far as fuel, strictly 93 maybe an occasional q/c16. I don't have access to e85. And I don't buy into the fic/id injector craze because I know which injectors they start with and what they do

I had my a1000 on another car and never had an issue... and I'm ballin on a budget so I'm using random parts I have laying around.

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

You dont think an A1000 will pump enough at 0psi?!
Where are these flow charts you are referring too?

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

No the a1000 is high pressure from pot to fuel rail. It flows like a garden hose at 0 psi lol

My concern is that a single 044 low pressure from fuel cell to pot won't keep up at least with my charts. I'll need two plus it would be nice to have a redundancy system just incase one fails I can limp home

I already have the cell, pump, etc. All I need to do is decide on this and commit to cutting a huge hole in my trunk

tepid1

800cc per cylinder? So, that's 2 at approx 400cc each? Just want to make sure I understand your thought process....

It sounds like you're making this a lot harder than it has to be. You'll be kicking yourself in the *** later. K.I.S.S

Remember, if you spray a fog it's gonna hit the intake runners and then turn into large droplets. You want to hit the back of the valve, essentially. Anything else is just going to hurt performance.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Secondaries are larger than the primaries. The goal is to keep the injector a certain distance from the valve. We've done a lot of ama bikes with shower injector setups and I've had some friends do shower setups on b16s. While there is a slight amount of pooling on the throttle blade (itbs) and a minor amount of intake charge reversion it's nothing that causes any performance hindrance. At least on NA motors

I want smaller primaries so idle/low load and cruising is as stock/smooth as possible and then depending on load, tps, map, air/fuel, etc we'll blend in the secondaries..

I will be running 46mm itbs with velocity stacks inside a dual plenum intake manifold (that's the plan anyways) and the secondaries will be in a shower position mounted in the plenum top in the middle of the velocity stack, not just another injector inside a runner, but I've got to figure out the correct distance for the shower injectors

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

These are the exact injectors I'm using. You can see how fine and conical the pattern is. They have a 20* cone surrounding the injector discharge. The second video shows obvious pooling and reverb but the video is mostly idle. Where I would never have them on. Under high rpm/high pulsewidths it's a rather impressive fog that has almost no puddling/reverb in the intake tract

cruizinmax

iTrader: (2)

Just my .02, If your total injector size is 800cc that would be 192 liters per hour if I am doing the math correctly. Why would a single bosch 044 or a walbro 255 not fit the bill?

It seems as though the staged injector system is way too complex seeing as I have tuned many cars with id1000/fic 1100 and they have driven exactly as a stock car would. I would think only if you were needing 2000cc+ would a staged injector system be of any advantage.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Because you aren't pulling fuel straight from the tank.... you have to feed the swirl pot from the tank and the pot feeds the motor... if you can't keep the pot full the engine doesn't run

I'm doing this because it's never been done and as this isn't a wot drag car I need drivability and predictability at all times. Something large injectors don't do well, not even id or fic on pump idle smooth and have decent part throttle crusing unless you're on ethanol which I'll never use. Not to mention the shower setup increases midrange torque and top end power

tepid1

I've very familiar with the RSV. A buddy of mine at work owns one. I am a Ducati 1098S owner myself and it uses similar injectors.

I'll say this about that and then I am done.

On a force induction car (hell even all motor) spraying the top of the velocity runner is going to hurt more than help. At least it stands true for the B and K series. It's been done and tested many times and always yields the same results. I give you credit for wanting to be different, but you have to accept the facts for what they are sometimes....

Don't kid yourself either. The swirl pot has been done on cars like this.

Also want to add that ID injectors idle better than any other injector on the market. FYI.... as soon as you up the pressure to the RSV injector you're actually starting to choke it out. That's the design flaw on those bad boys. Just like RC injectors.

Troll around. There is a bunch of info on this forum alone as to why it doesn't work.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I'm doing the swirl pot simply to insure a consistent fuel supply through various lateral and axial g forces, elevation changes etc under hard driving

Would moving the shower injector down into the stack help some?

I'm using magnetti marelli secondaries (ironically the ones on your 1098s, the pink/magenta banded shower units), they are rated to 5bar rail pressure and flow more as pressure increases to a point

I just know how precise these units are and how crisp the spray pattern is and how finely they atomize fuel. I have thought about mounting them after the throttles but finding a bung and retention system for such a small injector (smaller than Bosch ev14s in all dimensions except diameter) will require some creativity

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

And tepid, as usual I'm very greatful for your input and advice. I truly take it to heart and use it. I respect you since you're one of the members that has truly been there and done it multiple times.

I'm just trying to find to most efficient way to build a car with a powerband and boost response rarely seen in a honda platform. I'm talking about an effective powerband that's as broad as 5000-6000rpm. Very broad and linear torque production almost like a larger na motor with a near seamless powercurve... try to take some of the "peaky nature" inherent with most small displacement motors

I just need to get the chassis done and mocking up/making provisions for the fuel setup is one crucial step as packaging is important due to space constraints

P.S. not trying to sound like a kissass with the complements

tepid1

Take what I say with a grain of salt. I come across harsh at times, but my intentions mean well.... most times. lol

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I know the feeling

I have some confidence that most of what I want to do will work. The things the won't will be addressed accordingly.

I plan on having the intake manifold in sections so I can adjust individual aspects to see the changes, if any. I know what I want to do will take trial and error. I'd really like to utilize these injectors in a shower configuration but due to the runner length and having a throttle blade in the way will cause puddling... of course I could always coat the intake surfaces to prevent this

cruizinmax

iTrader: (2)

You will not be drawing more fuel from the pot than your injectors will be putting out though. Any excess that the injectors are not using will be refilling the pot, unless you are plumbing it some strange way.

I assure you I have been able to tune several id1000 cars on gasoline and the idle/part throttle is as at least as good as stock. In theory the shower setup is better, but do you think it would be a difference that would be noticeable or measurable?

You need drivability and predictability at all times, however on a track and especially a street car you need RELIABILITY more than either of those. The more parts you introduce, the higher the chances one of them will fail. You can't win a race you can't finish. And nobody likes to walk home.

I'm not trying to stifle creativity, it seems like a cool idea but I'm not sure the "juice is worth the squeeze" as they say.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I've been looking at running dual gsl392 walbros to feed the pot, that should be enough to feed an a1000, 2 rails, 8 injectors and not starve the pot of fuel under wot high boost runs

cruizinmax

iTrader: (2)

You probably know this but your low pressure pump does not need to have the volume of the a1000 and your injectors. It only has to supply the amount of fuel your injectors are using. The a1000 will draw from the pot, supply fuel to the injectors, then return what is not used to the pot. It seems like you are calculating the a1000 returning fuel back to the cell.

Keep in mind since it is the low pressure side even if you needed the volume you are limiting yourself to high pressure pumps. Look at the fuel pumps for carburetors. You can get single pumps that flow as much as you want.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

No the return from the rails will feed back to the swirl pot, then another fitting on top of the swirl pot will feed the return on the cell like a traditional setup

My worry is that on the track (which has rapid elevation changes up to 150-200ft) and very hard braking areas and high g corners that if I don't keep enough fuel in the pot I'll have starvation issues.

An idea I did have was to make the lower half of the pot conical and have a fitting at the very bottom to supply fuel to the a1000... that way there's almost always a constant supply to the pump that would be fairly immune to sudden g forces under cornering, braking and accelerating as well as rapid elevation change

Also I've been looking at pump flowrates very closely based on base pressure plus the pressure added from boost pressure, 20-33psi of boost which jacks up pressure a good bit. A lot of the various pumps I looked at had similar flow rates at 0-15psi (I think the most the low pressure pumps will see is 5psi) that my a1000 has at 80 psi... meaning I'll be cutting it close on having enough fuel in the pot even with the rail return feeding the pot.

Which is why I will be more comfortable with two low pressure supply pumps. Not only to ensure adequate flow to avoid starvation but if one pump fails I still have one to feed the motor enough fuel to baby it home

I know it sounds like I'm over-engineering my fuel system and going a bit overkill but I don't want even a remote possibility of fuel starvation that could potentially damage my motor. I've put too much effort in to this to have to do it all over. See my thought process?

Garage 808 Hatch

I hope you are accounting for the severe flow loss of cranking up the pressure on an A-1000. Personally Id run the A-1000 as the low pressure, and dual 044's if you truly think you need that much much fuel and need it to be overly complicated. You never did mention power goals did you?

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

500whp on 93 with methanol injection

The swirl pot is basically for road course sessions and mountain runs

I'm modeling my system off the infamous Signal R34 that my friend has. It's a competition drift car and with his setup he never sees one bit of fuel starvation

And honestly it's not that complicated. Hard wire the pumps, make mounting brackets for the fuel cell and low pressure pumps. Mount the swirl pot and bend hardline to suit appropriately

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Did a crude drawing on my phone to get the general idea

Ree circles are filters
LPP = low pressure pump, these two provide fuel to the pot from the sump on the fuel cell
HPP = high pressure pump, this draws fuel from pot and feeds the engine

Then you have the rail/regulator return that's plumbed into the pot, then the overflow line from thr pot to the return line on top of the cell.... and then a vent line from the cell that's routed outside the car to vent fumes and draw in air to replace the fuel pumped out of the cell

The filters and low pressure pumps will be mounted outside the car along the fuel cell. Bulkhead fittings will then allow the fuel to enter the compartment and aluminum hardline will be bent to supply all fuel in the system, from low pressure to pot, return lines to the pot and cell as well as the vent.. aluminum hardline will also supply fuel to the high pressure filter and pump all the way to the engine compartment. Same for the return, hardline will carry return fuel from the motor to pot and the pot overflow to the cell.

Where the hardline stops in the engine bay, braided line will be used to supply fuel to both rails and from the regulator return to the hardline in the engine bay. I might look into making a hardline system to feed the rails on their own, using a splitter to divert fuel equally between the rails.

So then it would be hardline from the pot to braided line with a splitter feeding hardline from the rail inlets.

I'm also looking it making hardlines for a lot of things. From turbo oil feed and drain (drain might not work or be really tough to get the bend) as well as pressure signal lines from the wastegate, solenoid, blow off valve, intake manifold etc obviously briaded will be used where there's a vibration issue.

Also the oil lines to my engine oil cooler and trans cooler will all be hardline until I have to use a braided line to go from engine to frame rail

cruizinmax

iTrader: (2)

Seems as though you have it figured out and don't need advice. Enough with the plans, let's see a build thread! :-D

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

The thread got off topic

I'm looking for help picking a suitable and affordable low pressure pump to transfer fuel from the cell to the swirl pot that can keep up with the fuel transfer of the high pressure pump as well as how much fuel the engine consumes

I know I'll need two, if not to keep adequate fuel in the swirl pot but to have a redundancy system where if one pump fails I'll still have one pump left to get me home (babying it) or off the course

The walbro GSL392 x2 which are both affordable a d solid pumps that accept a big range of fittings including an fittings. 2 also have enough flow to be perfectly suited for my application

Or

The Bosch 044 x2.. cost a bit more, lots of china copies have popped up recently flooding eBay. But it is a proven pump


Does anyone else have a suggestion for an inline style pump that will accept an fittings and flows a good bit at zero to low pressure

I have thought about those 0-15psi electric lift pumps for carburetor motors but I doubt they flow 255lph +

cruizinmax

iTrader: (2)

This would be 367lph
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hl...01-1/overview/

Or this one that flows 529 lph
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hl...15-1/overview/