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Old 05-28-2004, 12:43 PM   #1
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Default Maximum recommended Timing advance (tuner question)

I need advice from people with good tuning experience.

My setup : 10:1 stock H22 OBD2 engine, Hondata S200 P28, Jackson Racing 6 psi kit, 4000RPM VTEC engagment. 7.5 psi before VTEC, 6-6.5 psi in VTEC.

My timing maps have up to 31 degrees of advance. I'm always running 94 octane gas and have the J&S safeguard looking for detonation. As far as I know, there is no detonation activity at this point.

The tuner (a knowledgeable one that I don't want to mention the name) first notice that there was a 5 degrees difference between the Hondata RomEditor dattalogging (21) and the one recorded at the Flywhell with the stroboscope light (16 degrees). Because it is a ODB2 engine there was no way to play with the distributor orientation.

So the timing maps reflect this 5 degrees difference. i.e. even if the maximum targetted advance was 25-26, we end up with 30-31 degrees maps. We end up with real good numbers (235 SAE whp) and realy good torque numbers all the way.

But after checking with Hondata, they said to use only the Hondalogger for dattalogging and not to use the Romeditor for this. So apparently, the timing maps I have reflect the reality.

So my question is simple : Should I retune with a safer timing maps ?

thanks in advance for your time....




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Old 05-28-2004, 01:24 PM   #2
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What is the sensitivity on the J&S set to? If it is sensitive enough, and you're not kncoking, you are probably ok.

However, since the factory maps for a B18C1 don't even reach 30 degrees at full throttle, I have trouble believing that is a good place for you.
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Old 05-28-2004, 02:46 PM   #3
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Default Re: Maximum recommended Timing advance (SRVMAN)

have you checked your spark plugs to see if you have been detonating?
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Old 05-28-2004, 02:56 PM   #4
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Default Re: (kpt4321)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpt4321
However, since the factory maps for a B18C1 don't even reach 30 degrees at full throttle, I have trouble believing that is a good place for you.
They don't? According to Uberdata they do.
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Old 05-28-2004, 09:01 PM   #5
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Default plugs...

Well honestly, it's the first time I ear this... What sign(s) should I check on the plugs ?

The sensitivity **** is set at 9 o'clock. So near fully ccw. But I had the chance to adjust it without the JRSC setup, 100% stock and running 94 octane gas... and it is set just before detecting normal engine noise. Also, according to other H22 setups with the same safeguard version, it is adjusted in the 'normal' range. Also before going Hondata (while runing the JRSC fuel/timing management), I was able to lower the Boost retard to 0.3-0.4 deg/psi before seing detonation with the J&S (with 94 (M+S)/2 octane gas).

What is bugging me is that my HP numbers are exactly where they should be... according to the JR honda prelude dyno sheet the advertised. And when we lower the timing advance with a maximum of 25 degrees, my HP numbers falls drastically (from 235 to 210whp).


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Old 05-28-2004, 10:25 PM   #6
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Default Re: plugs... (SRVMAN)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRVMAN
What sign(s) should I check on the plugs ?
white specs of detonation.
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Old 05-29-2004, 12:25 AM   #7
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Default Re: (MachAF)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MachAF
They don't? According to Uberdata they do.
Look again. The highest you get at full throttle is about 29 degrees BTDC.
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Old 05-29-2004, 04:26 PM   #8
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Default Re: plugs... (DIRep972)

I'm sorry, but could you explain in other words what you mean by 'specs'... (I'm sure it's not 'specifications'). Unfortunately, english is not my first language...

Thank you in advance.
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Old 05-29-2004, 04:41 PM   #9
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Default Re: plugs... (SRVMAN)

well first of all, SRVMAN disregard anything about gsr maps running 29 degrees at WOT NA, thats useless information because its obvious you dont have a gsr motor, You have a h22. h22's like more timing than b-series motors.

i know you said the hondata logger and your actual timing was off a bit. but you seem like you are on the right track. you might want to look into checking and adjusting your base timing advance however.

If i were u, id start looking around 25 degrees of actual timing at 6.5 psi on your vtec cam.

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Old 05-29-2004, 05:01 PM   #10
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Default (Mase)

As you said... 25 is what we were initially targetting. But the 5 degrees difference we saw with the Romeditor simply got us confused.

Have you an idea whre i could find H22A USDM stock timing maps (well mine is a 1996 OBD2 190 bhp H22A1). I would like to know what's the maximum timing advance value on a usdm H22A. With those I would at least be able to have a starting point.




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Old 05-29-2004, 05:29 PM   #11
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Default Re: plugs... (SRVMAN)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRVMAN
I'm sorry, but could you explain in other words what you mean by 'specs'... (I'm sure it's not 'specifications'). Unfortunately, english is not my first language...

Thank you in advance.
Spec's as in short for spekles.. Look for little white/tan spekles on the electrode..
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Old 05-30-2004, 08:50 AM   #12
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Default Re: plugs... (DIRep972)

There are very little white/silver specs on each plug, especilly the #2 cylinder. Not that much (half a dozen max.), but they are there. They are very difficult to see, I had to take a second look very close to a light source in order to see'em. I went back and put more sensitivity on the J&S and I have detonation readings above 7000RPM, but not all the time!? So I may be right on the edge of detonation with my actual timing maps.

Thanks for your help... I have an appointement on June 2nd with the tuner... I'll ask for a more conservative timing maps... I have to say that I'm very dispointed to have experienced detonation since I took a lot of precautions not to.

Another stange thing : I have a very big detonation signal at around 2500RPM and 7.5 psi of boost. Even when I add a LOT of boost retard, I still read it. This is strange... to me it looks like the sound is coming from the connecting rod smashing the crank shaft or something equivalent... not from real detonation. ?!

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Old 05-30-2004, 08:56 AM   #13
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Default Re: plugs... (SRVMAN)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRVMAN
There are very little white/silver specs on each plug, especilly the #2 cylinder. Not that much (half a dozen max.), but they are there. They are very difficult to see, I had to take a second look very close to a light source in order to see'em. I went back and put more sensitivity on the J&S and I have detonation readings above 7000RPM, but not all the time!? So I may be right on the edge of detonation with my actual timing maps.

Thanks for your help... I have an appointement on June 2nd with the tuner... I'll ask for a more conservative timing maps... I have to say that I'm very dispointed to have experienced detonation since I took a lot of precautions not to.

Another stange thing : I have a very big detonation signal at around 2500RPM and 7.5 psi of boost. Even when I add a LOT of boost retard, I still read it. This is strange... to me it looks like the sound is coming from the connecting rod smashing the crank shaft or something equivalent... not from real detonation. ?!
yeh sounds like you have a lil detonation goin on.. Luckily right now its not enough to do have done any permenant damage or you would probably have the spekles alot worse and mabye blown off the electrode. Retune it and you should be ok. No idea whats goin on @ 2500 your J&S probably just picking up some noise.
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Old 05-30-2004, 05:49 PM   #14
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Thanks to everyone... Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 05-30-2004, 06:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: (SRVMAN)

obvious question but; what does the air fuel ratio look like at 2500? Too lean and it might detonate there even with conservative timing I would guess.

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Old 05-30-2004, 11:31 PM   #16
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Default Re: plugs... (Mase)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mase
well first of all, SRVMAN disregard anything about gsr maps running 29 degrees at WOT NA, thats useless information because its obvious you dont have a gsr motor, You have a h22. h22's like more timing than b-series motors.
Sure, they want more timing, mostly due to their larger bore. However, do they want more timing to the extent that a boosted H22 will run the same advance as a NA GS-R? I sure as hell think not.

I didn't say that "stock maps are 30, and take out XX because of boost, which puts you here:." I was simply using it as a point of comparison, and definately a legitimate one.

The fact is that 30 degrees is not suitable for that type of motor at that boost level.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If i were u, id start looking around 25 degrees of actual timing at 6.5 psi on your vtec cam.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok, so you agree with me.
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Old 05-30-2004, 11:32 PM   #17
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Default Re: plugs... (SRVMAN)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRVMAN
There are very little white/silver specs on each plug, especilly the #2 cylinder. Not that much (half a dozen max.), but they are there. They are very difficult to see, I had to take a second look very close to a light source in order to see'em. I went back and put more sensitivity on the J&S and I have detonation readings above 7000RPM, but not all the time!? So I may be right on the edge of detonation with my actual timing maps.
Sounds about right. As we have all said, 30 degrees is quite high.
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Old 05-31-2004, 05:07 AM   #18
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My WOT a/f ratio is 12.2-12.3... a very nice flat line at all RPM.

I have been able to adjust the J&S sensitivity not to read the noise @ 2500RPM and just enough to pickup the detonation above 7000RPM. Strangly before I got SC, the normal engine noise was mostly in VTEC, now with boost it is mostly at low RPM... ?!!

When we say 25 as maximum timing advance, this is for 92 octane north american gas, right? I guess that with 94 octane gas, I may be looking for a little more right...?

Anyone aware of the maximum timing advance found of a stock P13 usdm ECU ? (or where should I ask this question ?). There must be free P13 timings maps available somewhere...but I haven't found some yet ... !!?

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Old 05-31-2004, 09:56 AM   #19
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Default Re: plugs... (kpt4321)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpt4321

Sure, they want more timing, mostly due to their larger bore. However, do they want more timing to the extent that a boosted H22 will run the same advance as a NA GS-R? I sure as hell think not.

I didn't say that "stock maps are 30, and take out XX because of boost, which puts you here:." I was simply using it as a point of comparison, and definately a legitimate one.

The fact is that 30 degrees is not suitable for that type of motor at that boost level.

Ok, so you agree with me.

why im responding to you and wasting my time, i dont even know.

first of all, i dont agree with you

30 degrees on b18c has absolutely nothing to do with it..... you are trying to compare oranges to apples, so dont say its legitimate.

hey guys look at that kia over there, it runs 28.587372 degrees of timing YIPPIE!

anyways, if you would have reread the thread (obviously you didnt read it too closely since u originally thought it was a b18c) you would have read that his base timing is off about 5 degrees and he assumes that his actual timing is 25 degrees at 6.5psi which is where it should be.


NOW, if i were u, id first fix your timing differences before you go on, make it so the distributor matches the hondata.

then put new plugs in, and try the 25 degrees. i think the reason that u would be getting detonation, is if the base timing is that far off. you said u think u are running 25 degrees, but u may be running different. it also could be detonating on low cam too, so like i said before its vital u get your base timing correlated correctly w/ hondata

where do u have your knock sensor placed on the motor?

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Old 05-31-2004, 01:00 PM   #20
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Default Re: plugs... (Mase)

Fixing timing difference :
Yes I got the same comment from a guy named 'methods' on hondata & the old one forums. Apparently there is an easy way to do it with the ROM editor (adjust Base Timing)... unfortunately my tuner wasn't aware of it... SO yes it is going to be our next step... ( may I be mad ?) Click the image to open in full size.

The J&S is using the OE knock sensor. I removed the small supercharger belt yesterday and tried to reajust the sensitivity without boost... at the end the sensitivity **** remained at the same adjustment. It is set at 10 o'clock, like any other prelude users... so it should be OK I believe.

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Old 06-01-2004, 03:50 AM   #21
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Default Re: plugs... (Mase)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mase
30 degrees on b18c has absolutely nothing to do with it..... you are trying to compare oranges to apples, so dont say its legitimate.

hey guys look at that kia over there, it runs 28.587372 degrees of timing YIPPIE!
Right, that's a great counterpoint. Comparing a Kia to a SC H22 is definately exactly the same thing as comparing a B18C to a SC H22. In fact, I think Kia's use B18C's &lt;rolls eyes&gt;.

If you're going to complain that my comparison was apples to oranges, then wrap your head around this: Since every car is different, comparing two cars with similar setups and the same motor is still apples to oranges to a certain degree. As such, it's still not a 100% legitimate comparison, according to your rules.

In reality, the degree of precision of the comparison simply depends on the similarities between the two cars. Since two H22 cars are more closely related than an H22 car and a B18C car, it would be a *better* comparison. However, that in no way makes mine illegitimate.

A big Ford V8 might run 30 degrees of advance, but I guess we can't use that to comparitively say that you shouldn't run 100 degrees of advance on a Honda. It is apples to oranges after all.

The closer the motors are related, and the closer the setups are related, the better a comparison you can make, especially if you account for those differences.

Are you going to tell me that a SC H22 should run more advance than a stock B18C, or would you agree with me that in general you want less advance in the former due to certain aspects (mainly the fact that it is boosted)?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">anyways, if you would have reread the thread (obviously you didnt read it too closely since u originally thought it was a b18c)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh, please quote me where I said that he had a B18C. I'd like to see it, because IT'S NOT THERE.

I in no way indicated that the B18 was the motor in his car, I just used it as a point of comparison because I had the timing maps in front of me and I didn't have an H22 maps.
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Old 06-03-2004, 10:37 AM   #22
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Default Re: Maximum recommended Timing advance (SRVMAN)

OK I went to the tuner. Here's more information (now that I knew what to check) about my settings.

- The ROM editor Base Timing was already set at 16 deg.... just like the reading at the crank is 16deg also.
- The reading we got from The Hondalogger is 20 deg at idle... BUT the minimum advance timing I noticed on the timing maps (at very low RPM, high vacuum) is 21 deg.
- The maximum timing advance was set at 31 deg at high RPM and full boost (6 psi).

SO it seems that I was really running up to 31 deg of advance under full boost. But still, I don't understand how this would have been possible. Simply because before going Hondata, I had to add more than 0.3 deg. Retard / psi on top of the stock ECU timing to stay away from detonation. By the way, I now have a copy (sheets) of the Timing Maps found on a stock USDM P13 ECU (base timing of 15 deg.), and the Maximum timing advance at 1000mBar is 30.75 deg.... meaning 28.95 deg after boost retard at 6 psi. The only thing the hondata fuel map are at 12.5:1, and the JRSC was at 13.5:1.


Anyway, so I asked a more conservative timing and NOW I have 29 deg as maximum timing advance instead of 31. And no more detonation signal from the J&S.

The fuel maps are base on a fuel multiplier of 0.42, even if the real one is 0.62 (340cc/550cc) since the tuner only modified the fuel tables without checking what was the fuel multiplier at the biginning. He said that it has no more impact on fuel now.

THe fuel enrichment (when the TPS changes voltage) is set at 0.62... thus should be fine. According to the tuner, this number works independentely from the fuel multiplier, and thus should not have any impact.

I still have :
- Cranking problem. THe engine fails to start 50% of the time with a very strange noise (like a ballon deflating). Can it be the 21 deg I'm having as minimum timing advance ?
- A small Engine hesitation each time I'm making a very small acceleration... bothering on higways. THe tuner said that he normally saw that happening with the prvious ROM editor version. It was the first time he saw that with the latest ROM editor Version. He did everything he could to solve this problem, I still have it.

Other question :

Since I really don't like the timing maps under vacuum (came from a Hondata H22 turbo base maps that look quite high everywhere) , do you guys think that I can copy & paste the one I have for from the sotck P13 ECU (taking into consideration the 1 deg. differenc between the base timing and extrapolating for different RPM/Mbar value) ?

Thank you in advance ...... I'm totally desapointed.



Modified by SRVMAN at 9:36 PM 6/3/2004
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Old 06-03-2004, 10:53 AM   #23
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Default Re: Maximum recommended Timing advance (SRVMAN)

timing is still agressive if you are running a true ignition timing of 29 degrees...back it off some more.

secondly if you have the the bin file handy, if u send it to me, i can get a better idea of whats going on w/ ur car.
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Old 06-03-2004, 12:06 PM   #24
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Default Re: Maximum recommended Timing advance (Mase)

I completely forgot to make a copy of the bin file. I wanted to, but I forgot... hummm. Your offer/time is very appreciated. I'll try to get it early next week since he is off for the rest of the week.

I'm sending you the copy of the stock P13 timing maps I found on the web (from a PO.com guy). I would like to copy them on my P28 (the portion under vacuum only), unless someone tell me not to. What do you think ? I want to do that because we used a hondata H22A turbo base map from the biginning... and the numbers are strangly high everywhere (at least from what I saw)... and the tuner did not made any changes on portion of the timing maps under vacuum at any time... He said : well your car idle fine, and I don't ear pinging at all... so why change those ?

btw, I made 240whp (uncorrected value on mustang dyno, SAE was 0.957) at 31deg max. timing adv., and 237whp @ 29 deg max tim. adv., and then we richen the mixture from 12.5-12.7 to 12.0-12.5 and end up at 235whp. All this on 94 octane gas, oh and at only 5 psi since I'm unable to get the belts tigthen enough to not slip. I agree those numbers are very high (dangerously high) for that boost level, especially for a SC. Click the image to open in full size.

Normally, Is it possible to get higher HP numbers even when small detonations occur ??



Modified by SRVMAN at 9:45 PM 6/3/2004
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Old 06-03-2004, 02:56 PM   #25
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Default Re: Maximum recommended Timing advance (SRVMAN)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRVMAN
Normally, Is it possible to get higher HP numbers even when small detonations occur ??
If the sensitivity on the J&S is turned down too far and you are not getting appropriate timing retard, yes.

Or, of course, if you don't have a J&S (for a more general approach).

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