YesSiR

my sleeve took a **** on me so now i'm going with a 84mm 10:1 setup with the stock GSR crank stroke still from golden eagle and was trying to decide what to do turbo wise. i'm getting rid of this 2" discharge 30R and opting for a 3" 3076R .82ar or the T3 35R with a .63ar (unless that's a bad idea). all that aside is it worth crying about spool time difference between the two in terms of how the respond to intial boost response, on/off throttle response, and responsiveness between changing gears? i'm hoping the 84mm setup wouldn't be overkill for the 30R with the bigger discharge since i'm still not looking to make a 600-700whp monster. the most i'd probably want to play with is ~500whp in race gas trim. also what size injectors would i need to run E85 in conjunction with the power output (~500whp) i have 880's at the moment. main purpose of this setup is to be a fun daily and eventually a dedicated road course car once it's retired from daily use which i'm hoping will be soon.

also would the 3076R 's power band suffer from the added displacement up to to drastically to justify the spool benefit? sorry for so many questions at once, just wanna get things as well matched as possible with responsiveness and a great overall power band as my main focuses rather than just extreme power.

ghettoSi

I'm interested to hear some of these suggestions as well. My 720cc injectors were maxed out when I was running E85 in my coupe and that was right around 400whp, you might need to go bigger on the injectors.

YesSiR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ghettoSi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm interested to hear some of these suggestions as well. My 720cc injectors were maxed out when I was running E85 in my coupe and that was right around 400whp, you might need to go bigger on the injectors. </TD></TR></TABLE>
yea you're correct, i pretty much figured that was the case just wanted some suggestions as to pump/injectors to go with, i was informed that i'd need at least 1600cc's and a pump capable of about 1000whp in order to utilize the E85 in a comfortable fashion.

legomytego

i also dont think you would want 700hp in a road course car its going to be very hard to put that power done and with something with as much lag as a 35r its not going to have much reponse coiming out of corners i would say the 3076 for your car it could make your 500hp goal on race gas and its the smaller out of the 2 so it gets my vote

No Dig

Its hard to answer all of your questions because they are so jumbled together but I'll do my best.

There is actually an in between turbo that you didnt list. You could go with a 3082, which is a 76r hot side and a 35r cold side. This is a very good turbo if you are looking for a solid 500 whp. Youll benifit from the 76's smaller hot side, while mantaining a breathing capacity of the 35r cold side. Off the wall a bit, but we built an srt4 with one, with the tiny 6200 redline it belted out 565 on 23 lbs of boost. Hope this helps. You can get it from ATP turbo's website, or you can order one through my buddies company.

0morgan@synapse motorsport

the 30r is the obvious choice. it seems you will never make use of the added power the 35r can deliver.

ive had both on my car, and the response difference was very noticable. the 30r was a much better choice for a street car. im at 84mm as well, im not sure what you mean by powerband suffer due to the increased displacement, it only helps.

here is my dynochart if you want to take a look at it:

sp00led

I have been happy with my 3076R on a 84mm gsr. Numbers in my sig.

YesSiR

sorry what i was tryin to inquire about when i asked if the overall powerband would suffer is if using the smaller 30R on a 84mm setup would be overkill (turbo being to small for intended goals and creating more problems than results like power coming along sooner, but falling off alot earlier and not carrying to redline)

well i have a 30R now and i love the response i provides, but the problem I have currently is that with my current 81.5mm setup and the 2.5in discharge for my 3076R i made 396@15lbs which i felt was fairly decent but the problem that lied after that was we couldn't up the boost safely on pump gas to make any more power because of how much back pressure i was already starting to create (3in downpipe no exhaust 2.5in hotside charge piping, 3in cold side and I was using a built block minus sleeves wiseco/crower combination at 9:1 with CTR cams and ported head), when they attempted to up the boost to about 18lbs i didn't really make any significant amount of extra power at all (i'm sure it was less than about 10whp IIRC) throughout the power band and an added issue i was having was how much excessive heat i was creating so easily (even at 15lbs). and while i'm not out to HAVE to make excessive amounts of extra power that's usually one of the first signs that i've reached the point of diminishing return on pump which is what this car will see 95% of the time.

I understand that a large portion of this issue is apparently due to having a 2.5in discharge on my 76R's hotside. but if i opt for a 3" this time around i don't wanna run into these same issues while i'm increasing the displacement/compression. I don't mind not making loads of power more than what my old 76R made but i don't wanna make my current issue WORSE than it was before when i'm basically only changing my discharge outlet size and keeping everything else the same if i stick with a 30R. that powerband looks amazing mike.

i know alot of that's all in the tune as well, i knew i wasn't gonna really make complete use of what the 35R was gonna deliver but i was under the impression that buyin a turbo that's constantly on the edge of it's efficiency range was something that shouldn't be practiced if it can be avoided. I guess that's my main concern with my new setup. I know most ppl like to suggest larger turbo's because it's easier to keep that margin of safety in pretty much all conditions i'm just hoping that with a solid tune that margin will be acceptable enough for pump gas useage on a daily basis.


Modified by YesSiR at 10:02 AM 4/28/2008


Modified by YesSiR at 10:04 AM 4/28/2008

YesSiR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by legomytego &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i also dont think you would want 700hp in a road course car its going to be very hard to put that power done and with something with as much lag as a 35r its not going to have much reponse coiming out of corners i would say the 3076 for your car it could make your 500hp goal on race gas and its the smaller out of the 2 so it gets my vote </TD></TR></TABLE>
well that's the thing, from a few graphs i've seen (Granted i can't see boost plots) the points in which both setups start to make power and then proceed to increase in power seem almost identical. I know i can't utilize most likely anymore than 260-70whp on a roadcourse without handicapping myself but it's just supposed to be an all around fun car weather twisties or a few hits down the 1/4 mile. I really would like to keep the 30R but everyone around here who seems to have extensive experience with both turbo's always suggest i go with the 35 even when they know my goals.

late edit:
well here's a comparison graph i found pretty interesting but i know it doesn't tell all sides of the story but it's a start....

courtesy of evans-tuning.com...

http://forums.evans-tuning.com...25848

30R vs 35R at 15psi IIRC


Boost plot between the two


now here's the trick, both of the setups are pretty much almost identical to my old setup (9:1 CR, sk stage 1's which are pretty similar to my CTR's, and same bore) has a better throttle body setup than me, but i have a better flowing head than he does (most likely since i have a full port job done on mine)

84mm setup with 10:1 CR, in what way do you think that 35R plot would change on that setup that you see up above? would it close the gap a considerable amount (namely that power gap between the two at around ~4750-5600) and the boost plot? what role would the increase displacement/CR play on on/off throtle response? that's what i'm trying to get at i guess if it makes any sense....because lookin at that graph the difference is noticeable between the two at the same level of CR/displacement, but i can't see how using this same 35R on a larger displacement/CR motor would make it just as dormant as that setup above.


Modified by YesSiR at 10:53 AM 4/28/2008


Modified by YesSiR at 10:55 AM 4/28/2008

0morgan@synapse motorsport

some more plots for comparison one thing to keep in mind is the GT30r has ITR cams vs the gt35r with gsr cams.

30r has a t31 2.5" discharge into a 3" downpipe. at lower power levels the difference wasnt as noticable up top. i dont think you will use the 35r to near its potential and the 30r will do just fine on your setup. a little more info on your setup would help out. intake manifold, valve size, who did the porting, what exhaust manifold are you using? etc....

YesSiR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mike@synapse motorsport &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">some more plots for comparison one thing to keep in mind is the GT30r has ITR cams vs the gt35r with gsr cams.

30r has a t31 2.5" discharge into a 3" downpipe. at lower power levels the difference wasnt as noticable up top. i dont think you will use the 35r to near its potential and the 30r will do just fine on your setup. a little more info on your setup would help out. intake manifold, valve size, who did the porting, what exhaust manifold are you using? etc....


</TD></TR></TABLE>
well on my initial setup with my 30R it was a T3 2.5" discharge into a 3" downpipe as well

Motor goes as follows (my previous setup)
(i wish i could give you more info on the exact specifics on the port job but I don't have any of that info available, was instructed that it was a port job geared towards FI applications, i'll see if i can get some flow numbers this time around)

Supertech valvesprings/retainers,ferrera flat face valves, CTR I/E cams, 5angle valve job, Skunk 2 IM, hondata IM gasket, stock GSR TB
Block:
Wiseco 9:1 .0020 over, polydyn(sp?) coated pistons, Crower billet rods, balanced GSR crank, stock HG, ARP headstuds

turbo kit:
RLD-FAB EL A/C mani, Tial 44mm wg 7lb spring/50mm BOV, Precision 600hp IC, custom chargepiping, Garrett 3076R T3 .82A/R, 2.5"discharge with 3" Downpipe, 880cc Injectors, running EcTune EMS with the electronic Boost By gear option on 93 oct. and stock half radiator (which i really need to replace to hopefully help with some of the crazy heat issues i was having)

YesSiR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4yf5efKuSM

after seeing this vid (belongs to the gentlemen Doostur on page 1 currently of this same FI section with an ITR) I'm failing to see why the 35R would be a bad move, in comparison to how my car was before all the drama came, it seems just as responsive with an 84mm setup as my 30r was on 81mm. I asked if he had any plots available since the dyno sheet has already been posted. response in 2nd gear at 40mph was great, even acceleration from a low speed in 3rd seemed about the same as my car was. it's really hard for me to go against the 35R in this case. larger margin of adjustment with what seems to be fairly identical results (in terms of what seems to be a awful similar real world result)

0morgan@synapse motorsport

i think everyone here has suggested you dont. i think you have all but convinced yourself to get the 35r though.

YesSiR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mike@synapse motorsport &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i think everyone here has suggested you dont. i think you have all but convinced yourself to get the 35r though.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I understand that the 30R is tried and true but what seems to have been so successful for everyone else didn't work out the same for me, even mike's setup made ALOT more power than my car did and we pretty much have the same turbo that's my reason for being so weary about going with another 30R. Jason (St00pid) and i had a few discussions back and forth about it and he suggested the 35R over the 30R as well even knowing for a long while now what my initial use for it would be. I don't wanna say that ya'll are wrong but i'm worried that lightning will strike twice. as far as i know outside of sleeving everything was done correctly and in a space of just two months the motor let go. i always monitor stuff as closely as i can to catch trouble be4 it gets worse and nothing showed a sign of the motor letting go so fast like it did. and i'm still baffled as to how in the world you pulled essentially 500+hp out fo a 2.5 discharge where i couldn't get past 400 without major issues. maybe i'm missing something. my goal is to find out what that is and not just lay most of my blame on my 30R that i have now.

i know i don't need 600whp nor will i even consider using it but for ***** and giggles every once in a blue moon. it's not about having to make the power, i just couldn't seem to do it as efficiently as everyone else has been able to, so i'm trying to figure out why. my current person working on my car says it's because of this ultra small 30R but even you proved it's possible (550whp is pretty insane for all that backpressure that's supposedly going on) so what do i need to change to get efficient results such as that in pump form? (450whpish). all that's left is the tuner from what i can see, but all his other setups have hold up fine so i don't know why mine would be such a hastle (it's not St00pid, but another local person, i'd go to St00pid but i don't have hondata and he no longer supports neptune which i used to have .


Modified by YesSiR at 7:05 PM 4/29/2008

0morgan@synapse motorsport

i would look into other areas, we have tuned many 500+whp setups on the 30r.

do you have a dyno graph at all? what ems are you using again?

the 35r isnt a bad turbo, its not too laggy for an 84mm motor, but you wont make use or near the potential the 35r offers without a serious fuel system and a strong clutch. the 30r can definately deliver what you are asking.

edit: did you say above you are going to be using an aftermarket crank with the stock gsr stroke? whats wrong with the stock crank?

YesSiR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mike@synapse motorsport &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i would look into other areas, we have tuned many 500+whp setups on the 30r.

do you have a dyno graph at all? what ems are you using again?

the 35r isnt a bad turbo, its not too laggy for an 84mm motor, but you wont make use or near the potential the 35r offers without a serious fuel system and a strong clutch. the 30r can definately deliver what you are asking.

edit: did you say above you are going to be using an aftermarket crank with the stock gsr stroke? whats wrong with the stock crank?</TD></TR></TABLE>
yea i have a dyno graph i'll try to take a picture of it since it's a hardcopy and post it if needed. i'm running eCtune right now. and using the stock GSR crank, there's nothing wrong with it i'm just going 84mm instead of 81mm for the bore size once i get sleeved. if i can safely have fun with 450whp on pump with a 10:1 84mm setup then i have no complaints i know anything past that point will require race gas of some kind for a 30R.

boosted hybrid

I did a direct comparision a couple of years ago with our old powerstreet car between the gt30r and gt35r. Same engine, same a/r housing (.82a/r).

http://www.evans-tuning.com/dy....html

I did some road course events with the gt30r (on another car), and wouldnt want anything larger. The turbo was great at Watkins Glen, but overpowered Limerock (shorter, tighter track).

sp00led

I've seen that comparison a few times before. I wish there was a boost plot for the GT30R. From what I've seen on my setup. You can get it to hit 28-29 psi but it never holds until 9k. It will usualy hit close to 30 at 5-6k but by 9k its back down to 23-24psi. Did it do something similar when you made 565whp @ 32 psi?


Modified by sp00led at 8:26 AM 4/29/2008

0morgan@synapse motorsport

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by YesSiR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
yea i have a dyno graph i'll try to take a picture of it since it's a hardcopy and post it if needed. i'm running eCtune right now. and using the stock GSR crank, there's nothing wrong with it i'm just going 84mm instead of 81mm for the bore size once i get sleeved. if i can safely have fun with 450whp on pump with a 10:1 84mm setup then i have no complaints i know anything past that point will require race gas of some kind for a 30R. </TD></TR></TABLE>

would like to see the dyno chart. if you have a boost plots that would help too. 396whp sounds good for 15psi, but it should still be making good power above 400whp.

B20luda

My numbers are in my sig, it spiked about 22-23psi and fell to 20psi by redline... im going to try to crank it up in attempt to make 550whp.... i really like the 30R Plenty for a street car/weekend racer

YesSiR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mike@synapse motorsport &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

would like to see the dyno chart. if you have a boost plots that would help too. 396whp sounds good for 15psi, but it should still be making good power above 400whp.</TD></TR></TABLE>

sorry i don't have boost plots atm, but here's the dyno chart, sorry it's so erratic, i had some really bad motor mounts at the time, but hasports have been installed since then.

0morgan@synapse motorsport

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by YesSiR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I understand that the 30R is tried and true but what seems to have been so successful for everyone else didn't work out the same for me, even mike's setup made ALOT more power than my car did and we pretty much have the same turbo that's my reason for being so weary about going with another 30R. Jason (St00pid) and i had a few discussions back and forth about it and he suggested the 35R over the 30R as well even knowing for a long while now what my initial use for it would be. I don't wanna say that ya'll are wrong but i'm worried that lightning will strike twice. as far as i know outside of sleeving everything was done correctly and in a space of just two months the motor let go. i always monitor stuff as closely as i can to catch trouble be4 it gets worse and nothing showed a sign of the motor letting go so fast like it did. and i'm still baffled as to how in the world you pulled essentially 500+hp out fo a 2.5 discharge where i couldn't get past 400 without major issues. maybe i'm missing something. my goal is to find out what that is and not just lay most of my blame on my 30R that i have now.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

back to this quote here. you seem to be focused on the 2.5" discharge. this is only one of many things that affect total power output. the 35r turbine can fit in the same 2.5" housing. and you can get the 30r with the same conical 3" discharge offered on the 35r. weve used many 2.5" discharged 30r's for 500whp applications so this is definately a non issue here. it would suck to see you get a 35r and see the same roadblock above 400whp that you are seeing now.

the downpipe/exhaust system, the manifold, the mystery head work, the intercooler, the low 7psi spring might not be holding 18+psi to redline, etc...

for example we had a customer come in with a log manifold that would not make anything more than around 200whp, he made a mini ram for the car with a new downpipe and picked up about 120+whp at the same boost level. no other changes were made. this is obviously an extreme case, but just to show you how some of these things can make a rather large difference.

YesSiR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mike@synapse motorsport &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

back to this quote here. you seem to be focused on the 2.5" discharge. this is only one of many things that affect total power output. the 35r turbine can fit in the same 2.5" housing. and you can get the 30r with the same conical 3" discharge offered on the 35r. weve used many 2.5" discharged 30r's for 500whp applications so this is definately a non issue here. it would suck to see you get a 35r and see the same roadblock above 400whp that you are seeing now.

the downpipe/exhaust system, the manifold, the mystery head work, the intercooler, the low 7psi spring might not be holding 18+psi to redline, etc...

for example we had a customer come in with a log manifold that would not make anything more than around 200whp, he made a mini ram for the car with a new downpipe and picked up about 120+whp at the same boost level. no other changes were made. this is obviously an extreme case, but just to show you how some of these things can make a rather large difference.</TD></TR></TABLE>

my wording may be a bit misleading due to my fustrations, i could have made more than 400whp on pump but I was having a lot of heat issues that i was informed was partially due to excessive backpressure and that they didn't want to push the envelope more due to me having stock sleeves at the time, i completely agree that the head is a mystery so i can't state that it's helping, the downpipe isn't connected to anything it's just a direct 3" dump to the ground with no major angle changes, as for everything else I don't see why it would be a problem. Maybe it was my tuner's way of scaring me out of a 30R since texas isn't very forgiving for daily use with the extreme heat/humidty we see year round and my 40+ mile commute a day had them worried about being aggressive on the tune. and the sleeve cracking was just probably untimely icing on the cake. to many unknowns at the moment, and i'm doing my best to eliminate them while i rebuild. i still have the 30R so worse case we can see what it's capable of the second time around with the changes made before i make any final moves. I just figured i'd get an opinion on what others feel is reasonable route to go and what's not with the new setup.