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Old 04-19-2012, 09:12 AM   #26
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

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You guys say logs are bad, but the 2j guys make 800whp on log manifolds...

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...-testing-today

Should a 2 liter Honda motor only make 2/3 that on a log then?
We never said logs are bad, or that they don't have power potential. That was stated by a guru member on here who stated that the Inline Pro and a Tuner 1 camshaft with a larger turbo can't be used.. So far, the consensus is that we don't agree with that statement. Supra, Poopra... that's comparing apples to grapes in this example here.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:57 PM   #27
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

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We never said logs are bad, or that they don't have power potential. That was stated by a guru member on here who stated that the Inline Pro and a Tuner 1 camshaft with a larger turbo can't be used.. So far, the consensus is that we don't agree with that statement. Supra, Poopra... that's comparing apples to grapes in this example here.
Well said... If only people would take the time and actually read the thread rather than just throw in a random comment. Anyways I'll be downgrading cams here soon. If yall know anybody who has ctr or 01-00 itr's and might wanna trade with a little cash on top let me know. Or else they will be in the Forced Induction marketplace some time this weekend.
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:53 PM   #28
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

Silverek96 you have a PM sir
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:58 PM   #29
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

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Originally Posted by kyden View Post
supra motors can deal with backpressure a lot better than a b series can.

How so?
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Old 04-19-2012, 03:02 PM   #30
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

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Originally Posted by TheShodan View Post
We never said logs are bad, or that they don't have power potential. That was stated by a guru member on here who stated that the Inline Pro and a Tuner 1 camshaft with a larger turbo can't be used.. So far, the consensus is that we don't agree with that statement. Supra, Poopra... that's comparing apples to grapes in this example here.


I wasn't referring to you.

But to play devils advocate, why can't we compare these motors where a log manifold is concerned?

They both are ICE pumps if you will...

Furthermore, I believe treadstone also makes srt8 log manifolds.
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Old 04-19-2012, 03:14 PM   #31
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

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I wasn't referring to you.

But to play devils advocate, why can't we compare these motors where a log manifold is concerned?

They both are ICE pumps if you will...

Furthermore, I believe treadstone also makes srt8 log manifolds.
Where should I begin.

Different Engine demand flow characteristic for different turbochargers.
Different exhaust energy velocities between 4 cylinders and 6
Different cylinder head designs have differing characteristics with overlap when vtec engages
Differing sizes of the average turbo used means that different exhaust energy needs for a given manifold placed on a differing turbo... (Average size for a honda is 41lbs/min-51lbs/min while average upgrade for a Supra non-VVTi- turbocharger is about 80lbs/min)

Shall I go on?
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Old 04-19-2012, 05:11 PM   #32
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

*sigh*.. Its not just manifold design or turbo design that comes into play when looking at cams.. Its where you put the centerlines at that matter as well.

Running stock, or mildly adjusted centerlines isn't going to cut it. /end tip
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Old 04-29-2012, 07:05 PM   #33
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

Ok, so can anyone tell me how to run skunk2 tuner 1's with and inline pro manifold? I just switched from GSR cams to Tuner1's and the low cam is a nice improvement. But when it goes into the high cam it just has no power, it won't really pull until about 7.5k.
afr's are 11.8-12.2 ... and it doesn't really pull that hard when it does.

b16 9:1
victor x
inline pro ss manifold
T3/T4 .63 hot side, stage 3, 57 trim
I have a 38mm synchronic wastegate, I tried using the larger orifice to get rid of some of the back pressure, to no avail.

So has anyone had success with this combo? Any input?
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Old 04-29-2012, 07:16 PM   #34
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

Did you just "drop them in" and not retune? (including actual cam gear adjustment) Those centerlines are a bit aggressive, and 57 trim is the right size, but you gotta work on the cam gear timing to get a bit better in the upper rpm band.
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Old 04-30-2012, 04:01 AM   #35
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

What I did was take out the GSR cams that had adjustable cam gears on them and swap them over to the Tuner1's. The cam gears were set to offset the machining of the head and block. So basically it's at true 0, 0... stock.
I was using the B16A maps from Hondata for the GSR cams and it worked ok as far as I knew. Once I had an issue with the Tuner1's hich cams I switched the high cam maps to the ITR maps (which it looks like they are almost identical to the B16A maps). It did not change how it ran on the high cam. I did retune the fuel maps because when I switched cams I installed ID1000 injectors. I noticed when I switched injectors, tuning the high cam was very different versus the low cam. The low cam fuel was pretty close, but the high cam was extremely rich and breaking up. After it was corrected I noticed the EGT's where a little bit lower than the GSR cams on the low cam.

But I'm all ears if there is something that I can do to get the high cam to work better. It seriously is not fun... the low cam is so strong and then switches to the high and just absolutely sucks. What settings for the cam gears would be heading in the right direction? I should be trying to tune out the overlap right?
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Old 04-30-2012, 06:46 AM   #36
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

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Originally Posted by akirarex View Post
What I did was take out the GSR cams that had adjustable cam gears on them and swap them over to the Tuner1's. The cam gears were set to offset the machining of the head and block. So basically it's at true 0, 0... stock.
I was using the B16A maps from Hondata for the GSR cams and it worked ok as far as I knew. Once I had an issue with the Tuner1's hich cams I switched the high cam maps to the ITR maps (which it looks like they are almost identical to the B16A maps). It did not change how it ran on the high cam. I did retune the fuel maps because when I switched cams I installed ID1000 injectors. I noticed when I switched injectors, tuning the high cam was very different versus the low cam. The low cam fuel was pretty close, but the high cam was extremely rich and breaking up. After it was corrected I noticed the EGT's where a little bit lower than the GSR cams on the low cam.

But I'm all ears if there is something that I can do to get the high cam to work better. It seriously is not fun... the low cam is so strong and then switches to the high and just absolutely sucks. What settings for the cam gears would be heading in the right direction? I should be trying to tune out the overlap right?
Well, I take it you're tuning it yourself. Perhaps a second opinion would be of help? I'm not doubting your ability to tune, but everyone (including myself) at times needs a second pair of eyes on tuning to make sure that the ID1000s dead times are correct or other adjustment. I'm not going to just throw out cam gear adjustments out there from afar. It just might be time for a second opinion. I think you'll have issues with ANY camshaft (not just skunk2) if you're not getting these adjustments properly, you know?
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Old 04-30-2012, 06:49 AM   #37
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

What you just said sounds an awful lot like the car isn't actually properly tuned. Stop boosting and get the thing tuned. That's your first problem why it's not running correctly. The tuner will be able to help you with cam timing.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:43 AM   #38
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

I'm not exactly a noob, I did start out burning atmel 28c512's on obd0 PM6 ecu's. Then went to Moates/Ostrich, OBD0Edit, Turboedit, etc... now Hondata. I'm not saying that I know everything-I don't, but I would certainly like to try to figure it out.

I used the ID1000 numbers from their website. And just in case I tried using higher and lower fuel pressure values/dead times. Any change higher or lower makes the engine run off. So I believe I had the correct dead times to begin with. I have them set to 900cc in Hondata as ID's flow charts show they are not 1000 cc injectors. My fuel base pressure is 55psi.

The cam gears are literally at stock positions. These should be "drop in" cams. I don't believe anything is out of the normal as far as my timing goes. I have double verified my base timing by using 16 degrees in the center mark and 0 degrees on the cyl 1 tdc mark. Both show me it's at 16 degrees base timing. Physical timing of cams and crank have been verified. I am aware that aftermarket cam gears can be pretty inacurate, I could put the stock ones back on. I have not seen anything that says Tuner1's should be degreed in or need cam gears at all. If I remember correctly most are set at 0,0 from the dyno's that I've seen. My understanding is minimal gains if moved.

The engine starts, idles, and runs normal on low cam. Literally I have rev'ed it to 7k on low cam and it's perfectly fine. It is strong in boost. I drive it around with zero issues on low cam.
If I set the vtec crossover to something low like 3k it transitions into high cam and doesn't run strong until 7-7.5k and it pulls fine after that. And I'm not sure it is pulling as strong as it should at that point either. I don't believe the Hondata ignition maps would be that far out of wack to cause such a response.

If these cams can't be used on an inline pro manifold because of exhaust pressure being too high..... wouldn't there be minimal exhaust pressure at 3k on the high cam? I have yet to make an exhaust pressure gauge to get some real readings. I could take out my egt probe and tube in a pressure gauge.
If it is backpressure then couldn't I keep changing the springs in my Synapse wastegate to get the pressure to be balanced out again? Or will that just bypass too much pressure?
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:52 AM   #39
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

Once again.. Get a 2nd opinion, from a professional tuner... that's all we're going to suggest at this point. Stop letting Pride take you over and keep you from your success. There is not enough exhaust pressure from the Inline Pro to effect those camshafts with that kind of turbo. Any information of that rumor is substantially unfounded. And I've been around that exhaust manifold for over 10 years.
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:21 PM   #40
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

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Originally Posted by akirarex View Post
I'm not exactly a noob, I did start out burning atmel 28c512's on obd0 PM6 ecu's. Then went to Moates/Ostrich, OBD0Edit, Turboedit, etc... now Hondata. I'm not saying that I know everything-I don't, but I would certainly like to try to figure it out.

I used the ID1000 numbers from their website. And just in case I tried using higher and lower fuel pressure values/dead times. Any change higher or lower makes the engine run off. So I believe I had the correct dead times to begin with. I have them set to 900cc in Hondata as ID's flow charts show they are not 1000 cc injectors. My fuel base pressure is 55psi.

The cam gears are literally at stock positions. These should be "drop in" cams. I don't believe anything is out of the normal as far as my timing goes. I have double verified my base timing by using 16 degrees in the center mark and 0 degrees on the cyl 1 tdc mark. Both show me it's at 16 degrees base timing. Physical timing of cams and crank have been verified. I am aware that aftermarket cam gears can be pretty inacurate, I could put the stock ones back on. I have not seen anything that says Tuner1's should be degreed in or need cam gears at all. If I remember correctly most are set at 0,0 from the dyno's that I've seen. My understanding is minimal gains if moved.

The engine starts, idles, and runs normal on low cam. Literally I have rev'ed it to 7k on low cam and it's perfectly fine. It is strong in boost. I drive it around with zero issues on low cam.
If I set the vtec crossover to something low like 3k it transitions into high cam and doesn't run strong until 7-7.5k and it pulls fine after that. And I'm not sure it is pulling as strong as it should at that point either. I don't believe the Hondata ignition maps would be that far out of wack to cause such a response.

If these cams can't be used on an inline pro manifold because of exhaust pressure being too high..... wouldn't there be minimal exhaust pressure at 3k on the high cam? I have yet to make an exhaust pressure gauge to get some real readings. I could take out my egt probe and tube in a pressure gauge.
If it is backpressure then couldn't I keep changing the springs in my Synapse wastegate to get the pressure to be balanced out again? Or will that just bypass too much pressure?
Those cams are just to big for that manifold, they will not work. I myself was in doubt because I really wanted to keep them. So instead of getting a million different answers I went directly to the man who has done about every Skunk2 cam tune with log and equal length manifolds. (Jeff Evans) I went ahead and e-mailed and him. His exact reply was, you can NOT run skunk 2 tuner 1's with inline pro manifold. CTR/ITR are the biggest cams you can run with it. That answer there was good enough for me to downgrade.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:28 PM   #41
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

I don't look at this as a pride thing at all. The engine is simply a physics puzzle, it obeys physics like everything else. I am a man of empiricism, so I like having data to show why something will or will not work. So if someone says there is too much backpressure, we can actually confirm or deny that claim just by measuring it.

Silverek96, Jeff Evans is who I purchased the Hondata, turbo, and ID1000's from. We should have him put an asterisk on the Inline Pro manifold under the b-series horsepower parts chart *Only to be used with OEM cams.
I have seen the forum post where he states typeR cams as the largest for that manifold.

So let's throw it out there again. Does anyone here actually have an Inline Pro manifold and Skunk2 Tuner1 cams working without issue? If so, was there anything different that had to be done to get it to work?
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:36 PM   #42
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

To get some data on this I went and made an exhaust pressure gauge from some brass tubing and a piece of 3/16 rubber hose connected to a pressure gauge that I held in the car. I removed my egt probe from the 3rd runner and put the brass pipe in its place. I made a table on a piece of paper for the low cam and the high cam and plotted rpm vs. exhaust pressure.

Skunk2 Tuner1 cams, Inline Pro SS turbo manifold, Victor X intake manifold, T3/to4e .63 exhaust 57 trim stage 3 wheel 60 compressor, 2.5" exhaust. Synapse wastegate 38/40mm large orifice valve seat installed stiffer stock spring installed.

LOW CAM up to 6.5k rpm--- peak of 10.5psi intake boost read by Hondata
Idle was zero - .5 psi fluctuating slightly.
4.5k was a steady 5psi exhaust pressure
5.5k was 10psi exhaust pressure
6.5k looked like 15-17psi fluctuating slightly

HI CAM from 4k rpm----- peak of 11.5psi intake boost read by Hondata
5.5k was 5psi exhaust pressure
6.5 was too bouncy to read
7k was 17-20 psi fluctuating
7k+ was 20 psi and higher fluctuating

So the Low cam stays within the normal differential of intake boost pressure to exhaust pressure of 1:1.0 to 1:1.5. And certainly feels strong through the whole usable rpm range (idle to 6.5k rpm).

The Hi cam never even feels like it takes off. If I look at the differential of the 4-5k rpm segments it shows 1:1.47 as boost is just starting to build. While at 4k rpm it's well below it's powerband, but as it approaches the powerband it quickly shoots up to a differential of 1:1.7 and greater, eventually going 1:2.0 beyond 7k rpm. So depending on what theory you subscribe to, if the high cam starts out just at the very edge of what is considered acceptable (1:1.5) then shoots higher to 1:2.0.
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:29 AM   #43
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

So I could not find a "rule of thumb" for backpressure limitations. I couldn't find a chart or much of anything with real numbers as far as exhaust gas pressure goes. Most of what I saw was for diesels or top fuel engines. It's hard to say if the readings I had were actually "unacceptable". What I can't tell from just pressure readings is how much reversion is happening. It certainly sounds like there is no velocity to the pulses when it switches to the high cam.

If stock GSR's have an overlap of 17 degrees. Tuner 1's have an overlap of 46 degrees. And various Type R's are 25 to 28 degrees. And people use Type R's with this manifold and it works. Then I wonder if anyone has tried using a Tuner 1 intake cam with a B16 exhaust cam to get about 27 degrees, I think a GSR exhaust cam would get you about 29 degrees. The Tuner 1 intake is only 1 degree difference from a stock centerline from what I could find. And the lift differential from using a Type R intake with a B16 exhaust would be about the same as a Tuner 1 intake with a GSR exhaust. So my question is, would there be something I'm not seeing here that wouldn't allow me to put my B16 or GSR exhaust cam back in and still use the Tuner 1 intake cam?
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Old 05-06-2012, 10:12 AM   #44
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Default Re: Do I need to downgrade cams???

I also emailed Jeff Evans and asked about using Tuner 1's with an Inline Pro manifold. He stated the same thing- that in his experience people always had to go back to GSR or Type R cams with this manifold.

Ok, so for the sake of getting my head wrapped around this. I took out the Tuner 1 exhaust cam and put a GSR exhaust cam in. From my calculations this combination would roughly give 29.5 degrees overlap. And since ITR cams (28 degrees overlap) are known to work with this manifold, I would give it a shot to see what it does.

Exhaust manifold pressure was pretty much the same on the low cam, may have gotten a little bit higher at the very end of the rpm's. The high cam pressure was a little bit higher through out than with both Tuner 1's installed. The thing I noticed was it didn't sky rocket up in psi fast, it was much more linear as the rpms built. And near rev limit it was reading about 28-30 psi while the intake manifold boost pressure was 11.5psi. So almost a 1:3.0 at the very end of the high cam. So this combination actually yielded higher exhaust manifold pressures. The engine did feel "usable" on the high cam though. It kind of felt like better GSR cams. As before with both Tuner 1's installed, it just fell flat on the high cam. So my take away from this is not that this combination has "too much backpressure" .... but it's too much overlap. Maybe that's what people mean when they say that these cams/manifold have too much back pressure (for the amount of overlap of these cams).
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