aleks77

Ok the car is a 91 accord with F22A6 SOHC, currently at 15 psi, built block (stock sleeves) built head. Engine has 2500 km on it and boosted for 1500 km, 1000 of it was 7psi. 500 at 15psi. Tuned on Hondata S300 by a pro.

Broke it in hard N/A, and just kept driving it pretty hard. Started to notice a little blue smoke at idle, didnt think much of it, yesterday it started gettin really bad, at idle i can fill my underground parking within 6 minutes. It seems like its burning the oil pretty quick too....i added 1/2 Liter and in a day it was gone, some went to the catch can. Here is what i have done so far and the symptoms;

- No smoke on cold start, turns see-thru white after 1 minute, turns blue after 3 minutes.
- Does not seem to do it on acceleration, only idle and deceleration (im gonna take it for a drive and have a friend follow to confirm this)
- Compression test; 190 across the board, DRY. Also didnt have the pedal to the floor.
- Catch can setup; 2 -10 ports on the front of the VC, to a can with 2 K&N breathers on it, no drain back, no vacuum, no steel wool. PCV eliminated. Now there seems to be quiet a bit of oil commin thru the k&n filters even. Even at idle i can feel air comming out of the filters, not sure if thats normal i guess so?
- When i pulled spark plug #2, white smoke started comming out, stready for like 2 minutues (pic below)
- After running the car for 7 minutes to warm up, the exhaust tip was dirty as hell pic below. Also oil residue on the bumper, from driving im guessing not at idle.
- Pulled off the charge piping right off the turbo, no sign of oil at all, clean as a whistle.
- Using Mobil 1 Synthetic 5w30 for the last 500km, broke in using regular oil
- Spark plug photos below, the lighting might be off on some pics, but the spark plugs all looked the same pretty much. Im not sure what to look for on the spark plugs so i posted all 4. No oil anywhere on the plugs.
- Oil feed is -3 or -4, ill find out, tuner installed it, he said there IS an oil restrictor.

Spark plug #1



Spark plug #2



Spark Plug #3



Spark plug #4



Oil residue on the exhaust tip




Inside the muffler


Smoke pics at idle, notice Oil residue on the bumper!!



Spark plug hole smoking



Video of the car at idle



What could it be, and what do i need to do to find the problem? Thanks a lot for any help Im not driving the car at all until i figure this out.


Modified by aleks77 at 9:38 AM 10/7/2008


Modified by aleks77 at 11:55 PM 10/7/2008

R.A.T.

Is your downpipe full of oil? is it coming from the turbo?
If this is the case, I'm having the similar problem as well
you can follow my thread too, maybe some info that can help you out:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2402936

aleks77

I have not pulled the downpipe off yet, will be doing that tommorow after work. Ill post what i find.

MiraiZ

if oil makes it to the tail pipe, my guess would be bad turbo seals, cracked ringlands, and or cracked sleeve.

JDM turbo DC

iTrader: (6)

the bluish smoke indicates burning of coolant. odd how well your compression results were but its definitely coolant pressure that is smoking out of your spark plug hole. shouldn't be that amount of smoke and pressure from the block and if there was then you would be getting the same amount of smoke just by removing your oil filler cap. not only justify removing only the downpipe but go straight to uninstalling the exhaust manifold too. If there is no sign of oil in the runners of the exhaust manifold and on the exhaust ports of the head then its a blown seal of the turbo. If there is oil in the runners and exhaust ports then you are lookin at blown rings, cracked ringlands and possibly cracked valve guides (seen it before). worst case scenario and based on reading your set-up, you might have cracked a sleeve, causing both coolant to burn and oil to leak past the rings. it only takes a hairline crack to cause problems. good luck

SOHC_MShue

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDM turbo DC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the bluish smoke indicates burning of coolant. odd how well your compression results were but its definitely coolant pressure that is smoking out of your spark plug hole. shouldn't be that amount of smoke and pressure from the block and if there was then you would be getting the same amount of smoke just by removing your oil filler cap. not only justify removing only the downpipe but go straight to uninstalling the exhaust manifold too. If there is no sign of oil in the runners of the exhaust manifold and on the exhaust ports of the head then its a blown seal of the turbo. If there is oil in the runners and exhaust ports then you are lookin at blown rings, cracked ringlands and possibly cracked valve guides (seen it before). worst case scenario and based on reading your set-up, you might have cracked a sleeve, causing both coolant to burn and oil to leak past the rings. it only takes a hairline crack to cause problems. good luck </TD></TR></TABLE>
blue smoke is oil.

tony tone

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
blue smoke is oil. </TD></TR></TABLE>

x2, not coolant.

Running925

first off. Excellent job on the decription of your problem along with the supporting images & video. That really helps out as far as people being able to see whats really going on with your car.

As far as your problem. Most likely, it's your turbo seals. Just follow the instructions as posted above. Pull your down pipe, it probly has oil in it, pull your manifold, see if there is oil there.. basicly just trace it backwords & find the culprit.

Good luck.

aleks77

I will take the downpipe and exhaust manifold off tonight after work and post pics.

I wouldnt think i could crack a sleeve so quick, im making around 350whp, maybe less, 2nd gear barely spins at full boost. And ive only got around 500km of 15psi on it....i've been watching the AFR and its been steady under 11.8.

one more thing, im an idiot, i did the compression test without the gas pedal to the floor ill do another one tonight.

RRev Tim

Sounds like a bad turbo. Does it have any shaft play?

EARLdaSQUIRREL

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by aleks77 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

one more thing, im an idiot, i did the compression test without the gas pedal to the floor ill do another one tonight.</TD></TR></TABLE>

you will be fine doing it w/o the gas pedal, as long as you did them all the same consistent way it wont matter

i would pull the charge pipe as that is a quick way to tell if its the turbo or motor as its physically impossible to get oil into them unless the turbo seals are bad

non-VTEC

turbo seals.

mine would do pretty much the same thing. no smoke on start up. but after about 2min of running the blue smoke would pour out. no signs of oil burning on the plugs and coolant level was always normal.

once i pulled the CHRA off oil just pissed all over my garage floor. the seals were shot.

pull your down pipe off and check.

JDM turbo DC

iTrader: (6)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
blue smoke is oil. </TD></TR></TABLE>

your right, let me correct myself:

Gray smoke to gray/blue indicates oil burning
Black smoke indicates rich fuel mixture
White smoke indicates coolant burning

thanks for the correction, its been a while (almost 2 years) since i actually needed to identify the cause of certain colored smoke and that wasn't even for my car.

95dxsir2

if there was a cracked ring land, compression would be almost 0
what were the compression results?
the purpose of opening the throttle body/carb is to allow more air into the combustion chamber....doesn't help that much.

my bet is turbine side oil seal

Scheizty

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by aleks77 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok the car is a 91 accord with F22A6 SOHC, currently at 15 psi, built block (stock sleeves) built head. Engine has 2500 km on it and boosted for 1500 km, 1000 of it was 7psi. 500 at 15psi. Tuned on Hondata S300 by a pro.

Broke it in hard N/A, and just kept driving it pretty hard. Started to notice a little blue smoke at idle, didnt think much of it, yesterday it started gettin really bad, at idle i can fill my underground parking within 6 minutes. It seems like its burning the oil pretty quick too....i added 1/2 Liter and in a day it was gone, some went to the catch can. Here is what i have done so far and the symptoms;

- No smoke on cold start, turns see-thru white after 1 minute, turns blue after 3 minutes.
- Does not seem to do it on acceleration, only idle and deceleration (im gonna take it for a drive and have a friend follow to confirm this)
- Compression test; did it wrong, didnt have the gas pedal to the floor, ill do another 1 tonight
- Catch can setup; 2 -10 ports on the front of the VC, to a can with 2 K&N breathers on it, no drain back, no vacuum, no steel wool. PCV eliminated. Now there seems to be quiet a bit of oil commin thru the k&n filters even. Even at idle i can feel air comming out of the filters, not sure if thats normal i guess so?
- When i pulled spark plug #2, white smoke started comming out, stready for like 2 minutues (pic below)
- After running the car for 7 minutes to warm up, the exhaust tip was dirty as hell pic below. Also oil residue on the bumper, from driving im guessing not at idle.
- Pulled off the charge piping right off the turbo, no sign of oil at all, clean as a whistle.
- Using Mobil 1 Synthetic 5w30 for the last 500km, broke in using regular oil
- Spark plug photos below, the lighting might be off on some pics, but the spark plugs all looked the same pretty much. Im not sure what to look for on the spark plugs so i posted all 4. No oil anywhere on the plugs.
- Oil feed is -3 or -4, ill find out, tuner installed it, he said there IS an oil restrictor.

What could it be, and what do i need to do to find the problem? Thanks a lot for any help Im not driving the car at all until i figure this out.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is serious blowby. You should definately be using a thicker oil.

aleks77

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RRev Tim &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sounds like a bad turbo. Does it have any shaft play?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not sure, it didnt when i put it on, it was brand new when the car got boosted..


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EARLdaSQUIRREL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you will be fine doing it w/o the gas pedal, as long as you did them all the same consistent way it wont matter

i would pull the charge pipe as that is a quick way to tell if its the turbo or motor as its physically impossible to get oil into them unless the turbo seals are bad</TD></TR></TABLE>

I pulled the charge pipe off right of the turbo and its clean as hell


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 95dxsir2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if there was a cracked ring land, compression would be almost 0
what were the compression results?
the purpose of opening the throttle body/carb is to allow more air into the combustion chamber....doesn't help that much.

my bet is turbine side oil seal</TD></TR></TABLE>

comp. results DRY were 190 across the board....

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Scheizty &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That is serious blowby. You should definately be using a thicker oil.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Im gonna switch to 10w30 pretty quick, unless i need even thicker?


Called the tuner and he suggested first to replace the oil restrictor, so im leaving now to get the oil restrictor he has for me, i guess its even smaller? the line is -4. So im gonna throw this in, and try it out. If no good ill do another comp. test, than pull the turbo/downpipe off and get back with results.

EARLdaSQUIRREL

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Scheizty &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That is serious blowby. You should definately be using a thicker oil.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

no he shouldnt, there is nothing wrong with 5w30 , thats what ive used with every turbo motor ive ever had

aleks77

tuner suggested Amsoil 5w40, so im gonna switch to that.

I picked up the new oil restrictor and it needs to be drilled out, his smaller bits are all busted so i gotta drill it tommorow. I do have a restrictor currently, the hole seems pretty small, but i guess im gonna drill an even smaller one on the new one. Ill do that tommorow at work, try it after work, and report back. Any other suggestions/comments for the time being are still welcomed! Thanks guys

quick pics of the oil restrictor (current one):






Modified by aleks77 at 12:01 AM 10/8/2008

aleks77

ok smaller restrictor did NOT help. Im 90% of the way to get the turbo manifold off, its a pain in the *** have to take the alternator and PS pump off, and both brackets. Damn ram horn.

I saw a bit of oil/wetness when i took the wastegate off....not sure what this means, ill have the manifold/turbo/downpipe all off tommorow and post pix.

mRek9R

Pull the manifold and take a look at the ports for oil/wetness.

Also, when you say you "broke it in hard" did you mean doing full rpm pulls? or doing the usual high rpm vacuum pulls (like driving up to 6k rpm and letting off on gas to decelerate)?

I encountered this smoking problem with my motor also, but after 1 hour of "vacuum pulls" on the dyno she finally sealed. Sad to say...she ***'n blew on the dyno..8(.

Do another compression test, this time WOT.

aleks77

I broke it in N/A, not on the dyno, and what i did was a lot of downshifting and i did 3rd gear pulls from like 15mph. And 5th gear loads, avoided idling and avoided crusing the first 1000km. And i did WOT to redline pulls too.

Scheizty

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by aleks77 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok smaller restrictor did NOT help. Im 90% of the way to get the turbo manifold off, its a pain in the *** have to take the alternator and PS pump off, and both brackets. Damn ram horn.

I saw a bit of oil/wetness when i took the wastegate off....not sure what this means, ill have the manifold/turbo/downpipe all off tommorow and post pix.</TD></TR></TABLE>

For some motors, the clearances are tight enough to where you don't need a thicker oil. For a turbocharged motor with forged pistons, the tolerances are more forgiving due to expansion. I want to say that in your case, when the motor gets hotter, it probably burns less oil.
Also, the reason that it is burning oil now and not before is because the rings are seated and the motor has finished breaking in. A more viscous oil should help your rings seal at lower temps and especially while the pistons are warming up. If it is not cold where you are, it would be a better idea to run a 10W or 15W. Depending on the results, you may even need a 20W.

If the intake pipe is clean, then the only way for the oil to get into the motor is either the gasket, valves, or the rings. Seeing that you were leaking smoke out of one piston, the compression is good on the head and the smoke leaked out because that particular piston was still in the compression stroke.


Modified by Scheizty at 12:36 PM 10/9/2008

PhantomX

Uh oh...my car is starting to have the same symptoms right now too better check my sh*t too

Sr420Det

Nobody has suggested a leak down test, you should do that. If you have oil in your muffler its def going to be in your downpipe. I dont quit understand why everyone is saying to take off your downpipe. I have one exhaust mani stud broke thats on the bottom left, so when something goes wrong it usually leaks through the mani. What Im saying is it might be easier to just take off one of those studs and turn the car on but either way, like I said if its in the muffler its going to be in the mani and downpipe. GOOD LUCK

GAtegs

I would do a leakdown test next...if that comes back good, I would say it is your turbo seals. Unless of course you have larger than a -3an feed line and your "restrictor" is ineffective.

So if your leakdown test comes back good and you have a -3an feed line, I'd say your turbo is [freak]ed. If you have larger than a -3an feed line, then I would go ahead and switch to a -3an because that is what you should be using regardless of your smoking issues. If you replace the feed line and it still smokes, I can pretty much guarantee its your turbo seals.