DC_Legacy

I've been making slight changes to my tune to my recent setup

B16A (JDM)
Garrett T3/T4 57trim .63 A/R
440cc DSM style Injectors
Spoolin Performance log
38mm Tial WG
B16 LSD tranny
Stock everything else.....

Tuned @ 7psi (WG only for now)
AFR 11.5 / 19.5 deg total timing at WOT
Cruse AFR 14.5-15.5, close throttle above 17

I bought this car recently. The previous owner pieced the setup together on his own, tuned it himself, and DD the car to and from Tampa for a 60mi round trip nearly everyday for 8 years as I was told...... The guy seemed very knowledgeable yet old skool too as he only used Crome for tuning and info he learned off PGMFI.org for his bases for tuning.

He did not provide a dyno graph but said he dyno'd the motor in Orlando and as the setup is now, he managed 255whp /175wtq. I believe him as this seems like a very easy target on low boost levels for a moderately health B16.

The day I bought the car he said he dialed the timing back slightly as he wasn't sure whom would be buying the car or how rough they might be when driving the car.

I understand not to make many changes or any drastic changes to the tune if all was well the way he had the tune calibrated and I wont be making any drastic changes until I get to a dyno and after I make some improvements to the bottom end build along with a planned manifold upgrade to possibly a SPA topmount or Spoolin miniram Quick4 AC manifold along with larger injectors in due time.

What I have done though is made very slight changes / improvements to the existing calibration by adding and smoothing the fuel trim since the fuel pressure wasn't referenced during the tune as the previous owner admitted.

Once the vehicle was parked in my driveway I added a fuel pressure gauge to the fuel filter outlet and noted that the FP was running roughly 43-44 psi......not terrible but I didn't see the harm in adding 2% more fuel to the boost curve above 0 vacuum which only seemed to bring the AFR at WOT from 11.8 to 11.5 ish......

As for the timing I know not to make any major changes here either as large changes here are best made on a dyno however since the timing was admittedly dialed back I've only made a slight adjustments here on both low and high cam maps after 4500 at .4psi thru 7.5. The timing curve follows a reduction of timing by .75 deg for every 1psi up thru 11psi on the map which is generally a starting point.

After timing changes were made I definitely feel an improvement noticed by the butt dyno and mentioned also by a buddy of mine who has rode with me both before and after these changes.

Another thing I noticed was that the slight timing advance seemed to make the turbo spool more response or aggressive which I guess makes since if more torque is being made then spool occurs more aggressively.

Anyway I dont plan to make much more of any changes until I can at least get this thing on a dyno for a baseline on the base vs my modded tune to really see the comparisons but as I've been making changes I've been checking my plugs which I also recently changed and updated to NGK bkr7e-11's gapped at .28......



Here's a pic of a plug from cyl # 4 I took today......all the plugs look the same generally, no oil, clean porcelain yet their are very miniscule black specks on the porcelain from time to time but I don't know if I would say this is detonation as I can blow on the porcelain and the debris blows off no problem.

Whats more concerning is that the middle electrode has what appears to be shiny specks on it, however each time I've pulled my plugs these shiny metallic like specks never show on the porcelain, only on the middle electrode. Most plug reading tips mention detonation appearing in the form of shiny or peppery black specks on the porcelain of a sparkplug so what are the thoughts of those here who know what to look for in plugs?

VegasInvasion

it's not always on the porcelain. if you're getting shiny specks anywhere on the plugs, you're knocking. I can also see a few peppers on the anode, which are from detonation. Pepper doesn't always stick to the porcelain like glue, it can often be brushed off. This needs to be professionally tuned before you damage something.

DC_Legacy

Yeah those were my concerns and suspected it might be the case.....I'll bump the timing back to the original ignition values and throw another set of plugs in and recheck it but in terms of tuning and getting it professional done, I'm not oppose to this however I'd like to start gaining my own knowledge on how to properly street tune and try this on a dyno with boost so I know how to do this for myself.

I realize this might come at the cost of a little bit of damage at first but hopefully I can minimize this and eventually learn how to get the most from my motor (however built) without damage and excessive tuning fees however I change my build.

DC_Legacy

So I decided to go a step colder to R5671A-8 NGK's even though I was advised to use BKR7E-11's.....

I'm very pleased at the results

Additionally though, I decided to change the fuel mapping since the fueling was tweaked by the previous owner who wanted the low cam and part throttle fueling to be optimized for fuel efficiency.
Now, cruising is ~ 14.7, and under 50% (while out of boost) at slight load acceleration I'll get 13.5-14.5 and anything over 50% goes into 12:1 with 11.5:1 at WOT where as the prior owners tune was much leaner at cruising.

My thoughts are that either the heat range of the plug was incorrect or the PT tuning was lean enough to create more overall heat for the previous plug which at WOT probably was enough to trigger the slightest amount of pinging which only revealed it self in the form of slight silvery speaks on the anode of the plug and really no traces of this else where on the porcelain as one would normally look for.....

Cyl #1



Cyl #2



Cyl #3



Cyl #4

DC_Legacy

Also, to clarify before the question is raised, yes I enrichened the fuel trim by 2-3% (2% at PT / 3% at WOT in boost) before swapping in the R5671A-8's and detonation was apparent with the BKR7E-11's regardless of retarding ignition and adding fuel.

Pinging appeared prior to the fueling adjustments because the slightest amount of detonation seemed to remain on the anode even though some of it would come off when brushed or blown.

Either the case, I feel it doesn't hurt to use a step colder for extra margin of safety since the plugs aren't fowling or becoming overly saturated with fuel so the AFR's seem to be right where they need to be especially since I'm fairly new to putting all of what I've learned/read about tuning (street tuning) over the years to practice at last.

VegasInvasion

chapter 7 in the manual in my sig explains proper street tuning.

I pinged for a month straight on a stock boosted Y8 before I torched the ring lands (on purpose, it was an experiment).
Honda engines can be pretty resilient, it's not uncommon to see some knock during an aggressive tune, you don't know how much power you can make until you test the limits.
But especially for a novice, I'd recommend investing in a KnockSense if you're street tuning.

DC_Legacy

Already looking into getting a Bosch unit and wiring this up to an electronic stethoscope where a guy on youtube posted a vid on how he did this with really good success.....some modifications were needed but the stethoscope it self is already designed as an amp for a piezoelectric sensor.

spAdam

iTrader: (1)

I gathered all the parts for a similar project but haven't had much time to mess with it. Uses one of these:


Actually, here is all of the stuff:



Goal was to have the whole Knocksense MS permanently installed and logging knocks through a spare input in NepTune but with a jack tee'd in so I could just hook up the amp & phones for tuning.

The extra sensor at the bottom is to be mounted on the fuel filter to log fuel pressure. Might add another at rear of block for oil.

DC_Legacy

Nice^ Yeah that looks like the same Bosch knock sensor which can bolt to any spot on the block since it has a donut shape.

spAdam

iTrader: (1)

Yep that's the one. The studs in the pic adapt it to the stock Honda knock sensor hole. I got them from Toyota.

DC_Legacy

Since they're Toyota studs, which model did they come off if you dont mind sharing?
I suppose the P/N is show in the pic I could always go by that, right?

VegasInvasion

yeah nobody is really sure what model the bolt came from, we just order from the part number.

spAdam

iTrader: (1)

Correct, go by the number pictured

DC_Legacy

How apparent was the detonation from the plugs when you did this experiment?

Was it easy to see or did you only know it was pinging by lower EGT's or by use of the KnocksenseMS?

DC_Legacy

Also, of these installation diagrams, which one is best suited for wiring up to an auxiliary on say Neptune or Hondata?

http://www.viatrack.ca/KnockMS/KnockMS.PDF

Would love to have this logged with other inputs on a Honda EMS vs running this independant if I can.

I read through this thread with what both of you guys mentioned for theoretical use of the KnocksenseMS but I'm only looking for a starting point if I buy this system since it seems promising

https://honda-tech.com/forums/engine-management-tuning-124/crank-fluctuation-sensor-knock-sensor-neptune-3181337/#post49323959

spAdam

iTrader: (1)

You need the MS version. All it does is switch its output to 5V on knock. Nothing fancy, but enough to mark knocks in your logs.

The provided led is stab-in-the-eyeball bright as well.

DC_Legacy

Yeah I get the basics of it, in all of the diagrams shown of the single KS setups and dual, I see that the timing signal is required from MegaSquirt however if wiring this up to a Honda EMS would I necessarily need to tap into the timing reference from the crank sensor or simply run the 5V output shown as "CLT" to the Aux input of the EMS I'm using since the sensor should be generating an output regardless of rather or not timing is referenced?

spAdam

iTrader: (1)

You're reading into something. The knocksense reads in and processes the sensor and outputs a marker signal through either of its two outputs depending on which logic you want to use, no more. The rest of the function is all within Megasquirt which you are not using.

It only functions as a knock marker on NepTune/Hondata/etc., unless you care to get creative.

DC_Legacy

Yeah I figured the rest had to be MegaSquirt but just making sure....Thanks for clarifying

VegasInvasion

Yeah, knock is always noticeable on the plugs. I cleaned them once every couple days and after one pull you could see a couple specks on them again. That's normal behavior for lean boost.
If your exhaust isn't obnoxiously loud you can hear it clacking away when it's detonating.
I got lucky, I was expecting a rod through the block but I swapped internals & she was good =D

The Knocksense LED will still light up even if you piggyback it to an analog input on Neptune or Hondata for a sensory overlay. I do this as often as possible when tuning.
The light IS dimmer when it's piggybacked, however it's the eye of Sauron so you'll still see it blasting through your soul.