Veggie Man

iTrader: (2)

So I'm interested in this topic and have been reading around. A few things I see against ethanol blends are that it burns less efficiently and it burns hotter. I wanna try non ethanol and see how my car likes it but I can only find non ethanol premium.
Firstly, could I put premium in my car? Could I wait until the gas is almost empty and put it in or is it not smart to have any mixed in at all?

And what do you guys think about non ethanol?

0xenocron

What do you mean by non Ethanol?

Pretty much all gas these days is at least 1-10% ethanol by volume

Ethanol has more octane that traditional gas only...which is one reason they mix it in, to mix with lower octane gas and bring the octane up to 87, 89...or whatever it needs to be.

Ethanol burns COOLER than gasoline...it just takes more molecules of Ethanol for the same equivalent of energy compared to gasoline to get the same result, which is why your gas mileage suffers a little when he Ethanol content goes up in the mix you put in your car.

Veggie Man

iTrader: (2)

Non ethanol means no ethanol in the gas. There are places that sell 100% gasoline and they're becoming a bit more common again. What I see when I fill up my car is 10% ethanol. I was told that it burns hotter. Ill look into that. But since the energy given by ethanol is less than that of gas it makes sense why the blend results in worse MPGs.
I wanna know from those with experience if it improves car performance or just overall health.
Also about the premium thing. My cars not worth constantly putting premium in but I wanna fill it up two or three times to do comparisons. Can I do that with still a few gallons of regular in my tank without harming anything?

jdmh22eg2

We have a few stations here in c FL, it is all i used to put in my 1gen gsr (built). I only noticed a small gain in mpg 3-7. I did notice car seem to run. A tad better with less random sputters in higher rpm's (related ? Have no idea).

Would i run again if i had a swap that demanded premium? Prob as it is a few cents more pg than eth there in c FL.

And ^^^ yes you can mix it all it will really do is lessen amount of ethonol by vol in tank

Veggie Man

iTrader: (2)

Ok thanks. Ill try it and keep track of my results and post them on here.

0xenocron

A car will only run better if it is specifically tuned for that scenario or fuel...modern day vehicles will run on a variety of different fuels out there and adapt to them.

...but the only way to get your car to make more power essentially is to put more OXYGEN in it. Ethanol is an oxygenated fuel so that is one way...

Veggie Man

iTrader: (2)

it appears, when looking up the molecular structure of ethanol that it doesn't have an o2 molecule. It does have a single oxygen molecule though. But regardless, the BTU's stored in ethanol is significantly lower than gasoline. I think that would cancel if not negatively affect any combustion gain. I've read that cars before the 90s were made for non ethanol and then I've seen that those before the turn of the century were. My car being a 97, I am not entirely sure if its designed to take an ethanol blend. Granted, most put whatever gas in their car but all I'm seeing here are pros for non ethanol except for the price.

Veggie Man

iTrader: (2)

Found something on here:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/general-discussion-debate-40/understanding-benefits-ethanol-fuel-2886409/

scmil95eg

You're waaaay overthinking this without posessing the information to make sense of it.

Yes, you can mix premuim with reg. unleaded. Unless your car has been tuned to the edge of detonation, you won't notice a difference. If your car was made to run reg. unleaded, there's a high probability that you'll actually lose power with a higher octane fuel.

Alcohol based fuels burn slower & lower than gas which is why you need higher compression and more aggressive spark timing to get the most out of it.

Exactly what are you trying to figure out again? There isn't really anything debatable on this topic. It's science.

Veggie Man

iTrader: (2)

Theres a lot of debate despite the science. I'm just stating what I have found out and trying to get the correct info. But there are so many varying opinions and conclusions on the science. A lot of when it comes to cars doesn't quite obey the black and white science because of all the variables.

Now this is a 97 Accord Ex. It uses unleaded regular. However, given the year I question how changes in fuels may affect it. I'm just looking for the best option and wont take "what your manual recommends" as an answer until I understand why. Not to sound stubborn- I just wanna learn rather than put whatever in my car as if I had no other option. On top of that, I've been testing bolt on mods to make my car "breathe" better to see what they do. Based on what I've learned though is that these things may make the car run leaner. So I'm just trying to see what combinations of fuel and mods I can use to get the most out of my car.

Currently, I'm searching for info on "what is the best fuel for my car" and "gasoline vs ethanol blend" on google

0xenocron

If you really want to KNOW...you are going to need to put it on a dyno.

Effectively there should be less that 1% difference in actual power output in your case whether you use 100% gasoline (87 octance), 100% gasoline (93 octane), E10 (87 octane) and E10 (93 octance).

If I had to guess, E0 87 octance, E10 87 octane, E0 93 octane and E10 93 octane would be most to least power in that order if tested correctly.

Veggie Man

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, if only I had access to a dyno. Id waste all my money...
I shouldve gone to school for automechanics.

But anyways... all I'm seeing are arguments showing 'scientific' evidence on both sides so you see why I'm weary to accept anything as solid fact. Then theres also real world situations compared to the laboratory calculations.
I do see that the gas needs a compound with o2 in it. Thats what the ethanol supplies, its not just a "cheap" additive. On the other hand since MTBE is illegal in NY, it would probably methanol added in right? I could not find the stored energy in that to do a comparison of numbers.
For non-ethanol I saw testimonies of cleaner and more "peppy" engines as well as a gain in MPGs.
So basically I see numbers and facts about the combustion process itself saying that it doesn't make a difference and then I see real world tests that say non-ethanol is better than gasohol.
But I do wanna see what you guys think cuz I want a lot more info to analyze. I put non ethanol premium in my car just to see what it does since I needed a refill. I was only a 40 cent difference. Guess thats the only way to get things done.

I dont wanna sound like I'm arguing for it. I just wanna do a blunt comparison.

scmil95eg

I hope your ***-dyno is more accurate than mine because I'd never be able to feel a +/-2 HP difference in your car. Just try a bunch of different gasses till you find one that makes you happy I guess. You're splitting hairs without any way of qualifying anything.

Veggie Man

iTrader: (2)

oh scmil95eg, youre opinions are much appreciated. You gonna spit out facts or experience? I love to hear both.
The first two commented on here are the productive answers helping...

So, I put the stuff in my car. After I while of driving I notice that the timing is a bit lower than normal with a higher octane fuel. I don't think the lack of ethanol has anything to do with it. But I filled up my car while there were maybe about 2 or 3 gallons of 10% regular in there. The timing ranges from 10 to 12 at idle when before it would stay from 14.5 to 15. Same idle RPMs. This is all early observation. I'm not sure if that little of a difference in timing means very much.
Enlighten me anyone?

scmil95eg

eh, I don't have any facts or experience to spit. I just started learning about cars yesterday!

0xenocron

Your timing at idle is going to vary more based on coolant temp and air temp before it will varying based on a different fuel...



Lol...he just doesn't realize

GhostAccord

E10 is complete crap, it's just another way for gas companies to cut their fuels and say that they are helping the environment. If you ask me it's the Gov't way of trying to make up for the low demand for E85. All of the farmers that grew corn for the big ethanol boom, that never happened, and nothing else.

I really don't care about if it has a lack of power, my *** would never notice it! It's the lack of MPG that pisses me off. I get 9KM/L (21MPG) E10 vs 11KM/L (25.8MPG) with the premium non ethanol fuel.

As far as I can see Octane really has no bearing on this...... I drive 140km return trip every day for work. I have tested this extensively using differing speeds and at different ambient temps. and all three grades of fuel, 2 E10 and one non... same results!

Veggie Man

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, the octane is just for higher performance engines to prevent knocking. However, a higher grade would be good for an engine prone to knocking. In theory at least- with a chipped ECU if the knock sensor is disabled, a higher grade fuel would be better?
But I'm still looking into the non ethanol vs gasohol- both facts and experience. I like to see your MPG results match whats been said though.
Now about the 3 degree drop in timing at idle. Anyone explain that? I dont think its any other variables either since I monitor the timing everytime I drive.

GhostAccord

You would like to see my MPG match what's been said????? Not sure what's been said but what I posted are the actual results of my daily driving tests of E10 ethanol fuel vs premium Non Ethanol fuel in my 2001, 2.0L Zetec powered Mazda. It's not a high performance engine and it really doesn't require knock protection. I spend the money on premium to keep my engine running the fuel it was designed to run....that's without ethanol!

As for Octane and knock. I am well aware of how octane works, but thanks for posting!

As for the timing stuff, I kept mine at it's regular base timing and stock ignition control from the ECU.

Veggie Man

iTrader: (2)

Sorry I didnt word all that correctly. I meant it is nice to see your MPG results. I appreciate your share.
And I'm probably one of the least knowledgable ones here on cars, I'm verifying that what I learned about knocking and octane are true though. I suppose it is.
So for my car that was made in 97- was it designed to run with a different- I guess they're called 'oxygenators' or something, putting oxygen into the fuel mix- but a different kind? Like I imagine in NY non ethanol fuel using methanol instead since MTBE is illegal. What was my engine designed for?

And would the timing make sense? That with a different fuel it has changed? And if so was it the grade or the additive change? And could I advance my timing to make up for that?

GhostAccord

Your 97 was designed and tuned to run low to medium grade unleaded fuel with no ethanol additives. It will still run ethanol but you won;t see the economy or performance as it is tuned for non ethanol.

As far as timing goes, ethanol really won't change that much as the ECU is basing it's calculations off of IAT, ECT, MAP & TPS (load) and a little bit of the O2 sensor when in closed loop. As far as I know using Ethanol wouldn't alter the AFRs enough to alter the ECU's timing. Only a tune on the dyno would tell if altering timing would help an E10 fuel mixture.

Veggie Man

iTrader: (2)

So why has my timing changed by a few degrees after putting in this fuel? Or is there another issue and this is coincidence?

jdmh22eg2

I think it is just a fluke that tour seeing a timing change with non ethonal, maybe the temp, humidity was diff when you checked timing with e10

cxserver

shell claims the 91 octaine has no ethanol.

Veggie Man

iTrader: (2)

Ok. I mean I monitor the timing everytime I drive and its always 15 +/-1 at idle. Now its 10 at idle. But I'll keep testing. This is all early in the process. It may very well be coincidence