MatthewMenze

Hi All,

This is more for curiosity than anything else, I finished a Neptune managed turbo setup last year, worked great and I learned a ton! I now understand why proper fuel management is the most important part of a build. That being said, I would really like to learn more about the older 'hacks' people used to do, and to that end I wanna research some builds that did so. I am considering doing such a build with a junk car as a learning experience, though likely I will just read up on previous builds.

In particular I am interested in builds that used Missing Link setups, or rising rate FPRs. Though I would also be interested in in depth builds on tuning with a VAFC or similar as well.

I am looking for *technical* articles, not some kid slapping it on because they think they can pull a fast one on people who 'waste money' on full fuel systems. So I guess this would be old archived builds from before Neptune/Hondata/ect where available as products. Preferably they would discuss the theory and practical process of making such a setup as reliable as possible using that technology.

Fuel management represents a meeting point of many of my interests, and so learning about the 'older' ways of doing things is of great interest to me, especially with respect to Honda builds.

I would also be interested in reading any build logs pertaining to street tuning these old builds.

Please don't flame me about how I shouldn't use these methods, I already know why modern fuel management setups are better and really the only way to go for a reliable setup. I just want to learn about the old methods. I have just been having a hard time finding info on builds that use these hacks, as they are not really common anymore, so I figured some of the veterans around here might remember stuff I have missed in my own searches.

Thank you all for your time!
Matt

Rtype16

Even in the old days there was still very good engine management units at the time. We would use Motec, Electromotive, DFI and later Speed Pro. All which are still around in some shape or form.

Setups were not that different than before in terms of engine builds, but most parts were one off custom pieces. Things weren't available like they are now.

Here are the basic setups most of the true race guys were doing.

1. Weber Carbs for N/A

2. Weber Carbs and a ton of nitrous.

3. Turbo with either a Motec, DFI, Electromotive or Speed Pro. Most if not all the top racing guys went this route when they were turbo.

4. However if you are looking for a really old turbo setup without a computer it would be a FMU, RC Injectors, MSD 6AL and a MSD boost retard controller. That was as basic as you would get.

As far as articles you aren't really going to find anything online as most magazines that would have that info don't post articles from back then and some aren't even around anymore. You would have to search some old magazines like Turbo, Sport Compact Car, etc.

MatthewMenze

Thank you so much for the information!

So where Missing Link setups never particularly popular? They are another setup I want to learn more about. They seem like they would be a nice solution for vehicles that don't have other options (beyond an expensive stand alone setup). At the very least, they are interesting in theory.

Thanks,
Matt

halfakneegrow

i think i might have an old venom power adder my that was used in the mid to late 90's lol.
or people that were on a budget used used a skunk 2 chip with a vafc

Tippyman

Fish tank check valves anyone?

MatthewMenze

What where they used for?

Rtype16

Fish tank check valves were used to trick the factory ECU to not see boost. Also fish tank bubble regulators were used as great manual boost controllers.

OneBadTurboCRV

Yup yup, this was before the missing link even came about. The fish tank valves do the same exact thing as a missing link; the missing link just looks much better than your typical 3 check valves.

If you search you will find quite a few builds with FMU builds but nothing that is going to hold your hand. Most people went with MAP bypass, FMU, VAFC hack, possibly some 310cc injectors, and hopefully a wideband. There are limits to the FMU and you will find them pretty quickly. The stock fuel injectors don't like to be pushed hard with high fuel pressures as a result of the FMU. You used to be able to buy FMUs with multiple springs / diaphragms to change the ratio to your needs. Most people started with 12:1's and went from there. The VAFC is pretty self explanatory... read the manual. Add fuel or take away fuel globally, change VtaK y0.

The problem is this is very tricky to do right. There was a small group of people who did it right and had them last for a long time. On the other hand a very large group of people blew their engines real quick.

MatthewMenze

Thank you, actually having those key words will help me a lot!

So I am curious, if the check valve prevents the ECU from seeing boost, how does that prevent a massive lean condition when the ECU starts fueling as if it's at atmosphere? I assume you used it with other things, such as a FMU?

I have been searching, but it's really hard to find information these days that is not people flaming over how they are bad methods to manage fuel. Obviously they are inferior to a full tune, but no less interesting!

Thanks again everyone!

OneBadTurboCRV

If the ECU sees boost it will go into limp mode. That is the whole reason behind the check valves - to bleed off the boost but not stop the MAP sensor from seeing vacuum. The sole reason for the FMU is to provide the extra fuel under boost. You can see how there is a VERY limited range of tuning capability with the FMU. This is why nobody uses them anymore... better to be rich than sorry with an FMU.

blackeg

this reminds me of my friends old vw golf. it had a top mount turbo kit and an fmu. i think we ran it up to 12-13 psi before it started to go lean on the wideband. this was back in the mid 2000's. in fact that car/kit was featured in eurotuner from the guy who owned it b4 my friend.

scottdh20

check out pgmfi.org also

that's where crome got started