91b18a1ls

I'm sure you guys haaate these types of threads, but I've gotta ask. I'm looking for someone who knows more about tuning than I do to look at my ignition map and help give me some insight on whether it's safe enough or not.

I'll try my best to provide the most info I can on the setup and how I've tuned it so far.

Motor : Stock b16a (besides arp head studs, cometic head gasket)
Turbo setup: Garrett 50 trim, custom mini ram, FID 1000cc (on e85), walbro 255, Tial 38mm (13 psi spring, no boost controller), Greddy rz bov. That's the main stuff for that.
Map : Stock map (haven't put my omni 3 bar in yet)
ECU : Stock ecu on crome free (p30 map)

I'm by no means a tuner, I've gathered some knowledge over the years for fuel tuning and n/a stuff, but this is my first time messing with a turbo setup tune. I'm just trying to get some feedback before I make a mistake and hurt my car.

Right now I tuned the fuel portion for idle (14.7ish), cruising(14.5-15.0), and boost(11.0-11.5). I can post a video of me driving it to show he afr's if someone wants to see and to verify I'm not just pulling numbers out of my *** lol. It's open loop, no stock o2 on the car. That isn't the main point of this thread though.

Now onto the main point.

The ignition timing is where my knowledge falls short. I left the timing outside of boost completely stock. Didn't touch it at all.

Now in boost, I set it to retard the timing 2 degrees per psi of boost. I felt that was a very safe way to do things. I don't know for sure though. I have pulled my plugs after driving for awhile and they looked perfect. No black spots on the porcelain, no oil or fuel contamination, no sign of detonation. I did not however pull them after doing a hard pull. The reason being is that I have the rev limit set at 5k and boost limit set to 6psi to be safe.

I plan on getting Hondata, and taking it to a real tuner when I can. But, for now I am just trying to tune it a little so I can drive it around and have some fun as well as learn a little bit more along the way. I'm not trying to tune it all the way to redline. I don't even have the vtec turned on nor am I revving it high enough for it anyway. I'm just nervous my timing isn't right in boost so like I said in the beginning, I'm just looking for some insight on the timing and for someone to help me determine whether or not it's at a safe limit or not.

Here is my low cam ignition timing table. (Car is only going to 5000rpm, 6psi)



I want to say in advance, thank you to anyone who read all of that and is willing to help me in any way they can. I'm always eager to learn so any info what so ever is greatly appreciated.

And just as reference this is my car this is all being done on

IMG_9773IMG_9798

DC_Legacy

I don't tune by profession either but I have been street tuning my low cam map for a few months now for my setup which is a mildly boosted B16 w/57 trim Garrett.

This has helped a great deal in getting me where I need to be however depending on your setup and mechanical background noise you may have differing results or may need to get it calibrated appropriately


http://www.viatrack.ca/


EDIT...try link now

DC_Legacy

another thing to look at once you start getting the timing where it needs to be with the plugs (provided your not seeing detonation) is the coloration of the ground strap on the plugs...

You want the color change to occur at a 45 deg angle on the strap roughly...

91b18a1ls

Hmm. Ok I read all of that in the link you posted. I currently do not have a knock sensor on the motor and I don't believe the p28 I'm using has the setup for a stock one. That stand alone one is very interesting though. Would definitely be a good thing to have. I'll keep looking into that for sure. Didn't know stand alone ones existed.

As for the plugs. When I pulled them last time to check for signs of pre ignition I looked at the ground straps and it was hard to see a color change on them. I'll have to pull them again, take a closer look, and get some photos to post as well.

I'll post back with what I find as soon as I can. Thanks for the response

DC_Legacy

This system can be used for passive logging in say Hondata or Neptune but is not for setup to actually retard ignition on any stock knock board, rather you can log the knock events or just keep your eye on an LED light that also comes with this unit which you can mount within your view next to any important gauges like your AFR, and so forth...

The LED will blink at a given intensity any time a knock is detected, however sensor placement is key with this IMO to weed out mechanical noise like that of the valvetrain...

For the price, it's a neat system to have but all other methods of following knock should still be exercised....if you buy this unit feel free to pm me if you have installation questions and so forth

91b18a1ls

That makes sense since there it's not connecting to the ecu. It seems like a good thing to have. I'd like to just have a stock one wired into the ecu, but the p28 doesn't have the board for it.

I took some pictures of my plugs the other day. It's only some cell phone shots so the quality isn't great.

#1 plug (easiest one to see the color on the strap)


#2 plug
I lost the photo of this plug...oops. =[

#3 plug


#4 plug



I know it's really hard to see on those pictures. To me though looking at them in person (and on the #1 plug photo) the color changes right around that 45 degree mark on the strap. Like I said it's hard to tell though

98vtec

your pictures do not work

DC_Legacy

Yeah the coloration does look to be at 45 deg on the plug in pic one. Keep an eye on this if or when you start making adjustments. What plug are you running?

91b18a1ls

They're working fine for me and dc legacy
Yeah on that one it does, like I said hard to see it on the others. The plugs are NGK-bkr7e gapped at .30

98vtec

Weird I see it on my phone now.
Post your high cam timing map.

91b18a1ls

Hmm, well cool. I haven't touched the high cam map. Vtec is turned off. Rev limit is at 5k. I'm not trying to go into the high cam map yet

DC_Legacy

I had those but went a step colder just for added assurance to NGK R5671A-8's........They do fine without any fowling and I've definitely enriched the low cam map from where it was when I bought the car.

Over all though, with the benefit of E85 your ignition timing will probably be higher than most builds on 93 like mine.

Try a step colder and see if the coloration shows better on the ground strap. These plugs were fairly cheap for being a hi-performance plug.

Seraph0

You won't hurt anything with that timing map if you have the AFR under control like you say. :D If anything, the timing is excessively low--especially on E85. Cheers for learning it yourself. I have been tuning my own setup very similar to yours for 15 years (8 years on E85). I built my motor in 2003 and it is still together today on the same build 80K miles later lol. Stay sensible and you won't hurt anything, and you'll learn too.

91b18a1ls

I've heard a lot of people tell me that the timing on e85 can be higher than with normal gas. I might try those plugs next and see if it's any clearer.
I feel my 2 degree retard per psi is really excessive after talking to a bunch of people lol. I might try and add half a degree back in across the boost portion and see how the plugs look after that. I always get nervous touching the timing though. Congrats to you for having your build last that long. Hopefully mine will last as long.

Idk if any of you run Crome, but if so have you ever had issues with the boost cut not wanting to work sometimes? I was riding with a friend the other day, I got on it in 1st and it hit 9 psi before I realized and shifted into 2nd. Boost cut is set at 6. So I let it go in 2nd and it hit boost cut at 6 that time. Sometimes though it just doesn't like to work

91b18a1ls

Ok so I haven't touched the map at all, but got to thinking about something. I haven't turned the vtec on yet. I have no idea if everything with it still works after doing all this turbo setup. It would suck to get to the dyno and realize I have to fix some stuff. So I wanna turn it back on and check it. I added fuel to the high cam map to make sure it would be rich if anything when it crosses over. I also looked at the timing for the high cam map and I was going to retard it like I did for the low cam map, but it appears that crome has already done it. I guess when I went into the boost table adjustments when messing with the low cam map and checked the box that says "retard ignition by x amount degrees/lb boost" it also made the adjustments for the high cam.

This is what the high cam looks like (with the same retard input as the low cam)

DC_Legacy

Yeah the boost table adjustments adjust all ignition tables regardless of rather VTEC is enabled or not.

And....though many here will frown on this, here's what my high cam looks like but you cant simply compare what I do against your setup as you probably know.....Other factors in the Advanced options for Ignition Advance and Retard for IAT and ECT play a factor too but since your just testing vtec I'm sure it'll either hit or not as so as you start up and go when the engines still very cool.

Another thing I discovered since using the KnockSense unit that I prob never would have realized until it was too late was the MAP sensor calibration in Crome with what my MAP voltage range was set to. Before, I kept seeing ping detection's during low load shifts (1st & 2nd near vtec transition) I couldn't figure it out but the frequency of occurrence did lessen with added fuel and less timing and then I tried an alternate MAP config in Crome for the stock Honda sensor which nailed it practically.

Not saying you'll have this issue but its worth peace of mind to measure your MAP voltage per vacuum/boost level so its calibrated correctly. Also I've read that the OmniPower MAPs are really good and quickly detect change in pressure to help with changes in throttle response. I plan to get one of these next.

booboo782

I too am starting tuning WOT boost ignition timing on the street, I think I have decided my process for this after days and weeks of deep thought and reading. I will be constantly monitoring for knock, with a sensor like the KnocksenseMS, and checking plugs as needed. You tuning smarties jump in here and correct my process if it seems broken in any way:

Started with a conservative timing curve, and got the A/F to 11.7 on a needlepoint all the way to redline, no matter the IAT/ECT (was a beast and took a LOT of time, patience and datalogging at many different ambient temps).

Now check me here: If I bump the boost timing by a degree or two, and there is chemical energy left in my fuel, I should see the A/F's lean out a tad (2% or so?). I will alternate correcting fuel back to my target A/F and bumping timing by a degree or two. WHEN THE A/F'S NO LONGER LEAN OUT STOP RAISING TIMING! - back timing off 1 degree to create a margin of safety, and blam-o. Timing should be close enough for the fuel I am using.

PLEASE critique me, as this may help others trying to figure out this process!!

VegasInvasion

All of the legitimate advice you can learn about tuning ignition timing is located in the manual in my signature.
There is no other way, there is no easier way, and there is no possible way we can eyeball your maps and tell you it's safe or not.
Ignition can drastically vary from one engine to the next, even if they're built the same.

PS if you're tuning WOT at 14.7:1, you're doing it wrong. Read my manual.

booboo782

So...yes then on my technique from above? I read your manual, and what I'm trying to do seems to fit into your outline for tuning boost timing on the street. Its worth the cost of an engine for me to double check.

ThE HeLLRaZoR

I think your timing numbers look safe. However those numbers depend on alot of factors I don't have time to go in to.
Read, read, study, study, search out the answer and ask for help.
I have never played with Crome. But, I learned a ton about tuning the same way you are now. By just doing it and ignoring opinions to have a professional tune it and eventually I got it making serious power for a beginner.
Make sure you can see/log your afr's. Don't beat on the car to hard right now! If your having a hard time doing something as simple as bolting the right map sensor on and setting it up in the software to communicate with that sensor in the right language....Then you need to be careful. You gotta, only not give a **** to an extent...
Start with getting the Map Sensor on and setup in the Software.. Your probably safe outside of boost. When you start going into boost your gambling. I don't have Crome on my laptop and I don't want to download it either. Other wise I would try and help you more. GoodLucK
I would highly recommend reading the GREAT information VegasInvasion gave you on silver platter. Fully and read certain areas of that manual twice or 3 times(;

v8killaz

great thread love to hear and see op's progress
I'm in the same boat just learning.

DC_Legacy

I second this, I just peaked at this last night and read where Crome doesn't have the option to adjust cells by percentage and suggested using MS Excel to copy and multiple the figures by say your MAP column percentage difference like from atmospheric pressure up through boost max.

This was very helpful for refining the fuel curve on a new 12 column map I created based closely on what I've been running since AFR's were already good at atmospheric pressure.

91b18a1ls

I'm still here btw guys lol. I've just been extremely busy lately. I've glanced at that page Vegas is mentioning, but I will definitely read up more thoroughly on it when I get a chance.

I haven't touched my car as far as tuning it goes recently. It's still the same as it was and still running great. Like I said I just haven't had a chance to mess with it. Hopefully this weekend will be different though depending on how the weather holds up

91b18a1ls

So yesterday I went ahead tuned it a bit more. I turned the vtec on and set it for 5250, added a bunch of fuel and went out and did some test hits. This was the first time I had the vtec activated since the turbo setup was added and all good news, everything works as it should. It switched over into the high cam map and went full rich (by that I mean richer than my afr gauge can read). I then slowly started pulling fuel across the entire high cam map until I got a steady afr of around 11-11.2. I would of prefered it a bit richer to be safe, but I got it there in relatively no time at all and didn't wanna mess with it anymore. The timing was left just as the low cam map pulling 1.25 per psi. I set the rev limit to 7k and went out and did some pulls. Car pulls really well, no hiccups, break ups, no rough spots in the maps (that I can see in the afr or feel). I'm really happy with how it's running on my tune for the amount of knowledge I have. I'm gonna leave it as is (unless I see something that needs changing) until I'm ready to get the real tune. I need to get that knock sensor first though. Still haven't done that...

Anyway, here is a little video clip of a 1st and 2nd gear pull from somewhere like 2000-7000 rpm. Kinda hard to see cause the sun though

boosted k20

looks good. A 3rd gear pull should bring the a/f in the mid 11's. Get it on a dyno and dial in the ignition timing.