Think

we are working with a company to produce a new C-sport formula car, as one of the motors we are going to offer is a 300hp NA 1600cc Vtec. I was wondering if anybody may be intereted in using this motor on thier Drag car? This is just a feeler and I cann't release any specs but can if the interest is their. the motor will come as a crate motor ready to be dropped in.
cheers,
yarrow t



Modified by Think at 3:43 PM 4/25/2004

ShoeGuy#1

i'm sure it would depend on price... that's 300bhp right? so flywheel HP... that sounds like an amazing goal if it can be acheived... 300bhp from a 1.6l would be very appealing...

DIRep972

iTrader: (1)

i hate to do this................ but its vtec not vtech

Think

thank you for the spelling error,
I'm fighting a nasty cold and I'm not thinking clearly, what type of price range would people expect to pay for such a motor.
cheers,
yarrow t

Casey

iTrader: (5)

sorry to burst your bubble and be pessimistic, but assuming its 300bhp, with a 15% drivetrain loss, youre looking at 255 to the wheels. Out of a 1.6 liter honda motor. Isnt going to happen

alllmotor

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Casey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sorry to burst your bubble and be pessimistic, but assuming its 300bhp, with a 15% drivetrain loss, youre looking at 255 to the wheels. Out of a 1.6 liter honda motor. Isnt going to happen </TD></TR></TABLE>

i to think its not possible.but if u look at the 04 YZF-R1 it has a 998cc 20 valve motor making 180hp now that amazes me

Casey

iTrader: (5)

thats 180hp/liter, even if this 1.6 honda motor hes talking about made that, it would still only be 288bhp. so hed be at 187.5hp/liter on this super b16

FURACERMAN

And man will never walk on the moon.

danimal

i'm trying to figure out what it would take to make 300 hp out of 1600cc's.

you'd have to run it on alcohol, because alcohol race engines use 1.47 cfm per h.p. developed... gasoline is 1.67 cfm per h.p., not as efficient.

the absolute bottom line is always cfm thru the head... 300 h.p. means that the engine would need to flow 1.47 x 300 = 441 cfm??

on the other hand:

if a ported h22 head flows ~173cfm@10"...

~max possible h.p. for a race motor = .43 x 173cfm x 4 cylinders = 298 h.p.

while the head flow might allow it, 1600cc's means that you'd have to rev it to the moon to get the necessary cfm:

1600cc x .06 = ~96c.i., /4 = 24c.i. per cylinder.

rpm = (2000 x 173cfm) / 24 c.i. = 14,416 rpm as the peak power point

but at what speed does ring flutter occur? what is the max safe rpm that you can rev a motor to? maybe start out by looking at the stroke of a b16, at 77.4mm(?):

77.4mm x .04 = ~3.1"

roughly, the safe peak power rpm point = 22,200/inches of stroke = 22,200/3.1" = ~7161 rpm

cut the stroke in half: 22,200/1.55"(38.7mm) = 14,322 rpm, right where the peak power point is... but you'd need, what, a 115mm bore to get back to 1600cc's? the stock h22 bore is 87mm?

or something like that, depending on how good my math was, lol... anyway, 300 h.p. out 1600cc's would be difficult, to say the least... that's why there is no replacement for displacement when it comes to normally aspirated engines.

btw, here is a great link for piston speed discussion: <U>http://www.eng-tips.com/gviewthread.cfm/pid/71/qid/85349</U>

nsxmatt

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FURACERMAN &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And man will never walk on the moon.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So your saying it would take a over funded Air Force project taken over by the US Government with billons spent to get 300hp n/a out of a B16?

Not saying it can't be done but when someone offers something that is next to impossible to make with the current technology and won't release the specs of info you gotta call them out until it's proven. There are too many Motormatrix's out there looking for the quick money so you have to be careful.

alllmotor

forget 1.6 liter 300hp why dont u build me 2.6 h motor that makes 450hp i am sure i can get a loan.

ModenaTwinTurbo

hey "think" the translation to this thread is .....


" there is many of us here that would be interested in the motor, but we are not dumb and we wont just say... ohh a 300 hp veetec motor yo hell yea i want one, i can put one of those in the front and a spoon motor in the back"

dont underestimate us and give some info on how you are planing to achieve this motor making that much power... there are plenty of serious inquirers reading this thread right now that wont say "count me in" unless you show them some numbers first... i really hope this encourages you to post some info on the motor... cuz by seeing what that insight did with only 23X's horses i can only imagine where the all motor classes would go if they had this engine option...


Ed-

OnebadJdmEg6

hmmmmmmm Vtech

88CRXHybrid

dan...you should really look over your numbers again. come on 10" of h20, seriously. At what RPM does your engine pull 10" of vacuume?

"ring flutter"??? care to elaborate on what that is? Valve float might have been what you ment.

yes I agree that it will be hard to make a 300hp b16 but you should seriously look into your math again. you left out ALOT of variables in most if not all equations. Dont take any of this personally. Just some constructive criticism.

Zero4Racing

lol........

Think

to the forum,
hello this is yarrow "Think", I'm not trying to pull anybodys leg and yes I miss spelled Vtec. But this motor is being built, I'm new to the Vtec platform but our engine builder is doing it. I'm checking into the configuration and will update this forum with better info in the near future. We will also dyno this motor on our dyno dynamics dyno to test the numbers ourselfs. As of now the price for this motor is $8-9,000.00
cheers,
yarrow t
ps. due the wealth of interest on this new motor, I will do my best to keep you updated.

CheezeFrog

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 88CRXHybrid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">dan...you should really look over your numbers again. come on 10" of h20, seriously. At what RPM does your engine pull 10" of vacuume?

"ring flutter"??? care to elaborate on what that is? Valve float might have been what you ment.

yes I agree that it will be hard to make a 300hp b16 but you should seriously look into your math again. you left out ALOT of variables in most if not all equations. Dont take any of this personally. Just some constructive criticism.</TD></TR></TABLE>
dude...

Brian*

Those TRD prepped Toyota Atlantic motors are 1600cc and I believe are making 240bhp, you guys will have your work cutout for you. Good luck.

Brian

CRXstress

If were talking 6-7 grand which is probobly the case its just to much for us lowly honda guys sorry but i may steel your someday!!

Brian*

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mrwool983455 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If were talking 6-7 grand which is probobly the case its just to much for us lowly honda guys sorry but i may steel your someday!!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Still cheaper than those Mr. Gasket crate motors, but these may not be as complete

Brian

CHEETAH

iTrader: (2)

at much higher rpm it'll have enough CFM to make that kind of hp. I think the cam design and exh header will play the crucial role ... figure if you can make 130-135 torque @ 10.5krpm = mission accomplished.

greg

spoolinlude

whats the CR like 15:1?........ maybe with an astronomical amount of headwork, to more or less double the flow (yes it can be done) some crazy *** cams with a **** load of duration...... maybe it would happen... all the power will be made in the design/porting of the cylinder head........ hope u guys have some serious CFD software

.RAven

Dude seriously, It would have to cost less than a b16 (575 from passwordjdm) and a 2500 turbo kit in order for that thing to sell. You can make 300whp on a turbo b16 with free engine managment. so I think in order for that NA b16 to sell, it would have to be cheaper that going turbo which it isn't so that answers your question.

Brian*

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Von Dutch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Dude seriously, It would have to cost less than a b16 (575 from passwordjdm) and a 2500 turbo kit in order for that thing to sell. You can make 300whp on a turbo b16 with free engine managment. so I think in order for that NA b16 to sell, it would have to be cheaper that going turbo which it isn't so that answers your question.</TD></TR></TABLE>

.......unless the buyer needed a good motor for an all-motor race class........

Brian

.RAven

Then the buyer could build one for alot less with more torque, like a b20vtec, or b18c which is alot less than 8-9k is it not?