wunfstgsr

Never mind sorry i found my answer please close. Endynes pulley is what i need.

whitesihatch

it is a nice piece, vibrants is nice as well.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I just save the money and get a more quality belt outside of the Gates stuff. Never needed that thing.

wunfstgsr

I ran into this issue when i upgraded the cams to tuner 2, seems the bigger cams are giving the belt more flex. I read its common with bigger duration cams and what not but idk. Iv built these engines many times, no matter how many times i try to slacken the belt according to the factory method and or try and pry the tentioner with a long flat head which usually would work it still has a little flap on the exahust side.

93egSLEEPER

I have the K-tuned secondary tensioner and highly recommend it for built head/big cam setups. I wish I had a video of it. I have pics in my build thread. The belt is so smooth at ALL rpm. I also have used the Gates blue belt for numerous builds w/o issue. Solid combo IMO

wunfstgsr

Is that a new K tuned tentioner? i see the one on there web site but it states power stearing must be deleted.

93egSLEEPER

It's the same one that's been out for a little bit now. Not compatible w/ power steering. My bad brother.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Not on a TODA Racing or a GReddy belt... I promise you. Never had that problem, and still don't on Toda Spec Bs, Buddy Club 4+, Jun III... Its been 15 years and those are the only belts I used. no slack on the exhaust side. In fact, I overtightened one TODA thinking it would slack out over time, almost 2 YEARS went by and I just readjusted.

I keep my power steering. No matter what.

But most people won't buy those belts due to their higher initial cost.

wunfstgsr

Interesting, i thought about the Toda belt but it is a pretty penny. I went with a gates racing blue belt instead.

wunfstgsr

No worries thats what i figured, wonder if anyone would chime in that has a pic of the endyn tentioner using power steering. Thats what i plan to do, sandwich the tentioner between the PS bracket using longer bolts and belt.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

nope. More to it than just being a "red" belt. And contrary to internet popular poll, is nothing like the Gates.

93egSLEEPER

I'm not trying to be difficult or cause problems, but can you please expand on WHY this is a statement you stand behind adamantly? I mean at this point it's no more valid than an internet poll/opinion? The gates blue racing belt has been used for years and years (by myself included and numerous builds) and on probably hundreds of thousands of builds w/ success. Learn me why spending 2 times the money on the TODA belt is worth it when I've had nothing but stellar experiences w/ the gates

wunfstgsr

Well whats interesting is Shodan says theres no flex and flap in the ex side of the belt using the red Toda belt using high duration camshafts in his expereance. Is this because of the belt desighn/material? It seems this is a popular issue in which is one of the main reasons the tentioner was desighned.

wunfstgsr

Id use the K tuned cause i like K tuned products for one but more because of the lower profile desighn and the mounting point it uses would work with my Procharger super charger support bracket. But on the other hand the Endyn unit is said to locate the pulley closer to the ex cam where you want it to prevent the belt flap. And i can still use the power stearing.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Because TODA RACING belts were never part of any "poll" or opinion when they've been used before this forum even existed. Too many people in this ridiculous age of interweb hocus pocus never try anything anymore and instead go by what the other cousin's sister's brother's former roommate did. Not because they wanted to do it, but in effect, try to become different by sustaining mediocrity.

I stand behind the TODA RACING belts on all of the cars that i've used for the last 18 years (Much longer than the damned Gates 'blue' belt was ever around) because of the fact that they use a MUCH higher tensile strength material than the Gates crap. Considering the fact that the engines that the TODA Belt was used on was for Formula Nippon 3 and other platforms in which 11,000 rpm and more was common without chains, instead of a "street" version that most companies sell to the public, while keeping the higher end version for themselves; they didn't feel there was time for it, and just went direct to the consumer.

I can't tell a hell of a lot more descriptively by typing all day unless you actually PURCHASE one and see the differences between that belt and the Gates, which is cheap bupkis compared to the TODA. When we put the first one on back in 1999, we originally put the TODA on a bit tighter on the tensioner than was specified, thinking that we knew more than what the TODA instructions stated. We thought that the belt over time would start to slack slightly to a point where it would be like it should at OEM tension. (you know, that "whine" that you get when a timing belt is too tight? Knowing that it would loosen up over time?) Well, we thought that same process would occur. OVER A YEAR LATER and 20,000 miles of driving at about 6-8 circuit events, not only was the "whine" of the belt still there, but it NEVER slacked off, never jumped a tooth, never showed signs of abnormal wear, and actually almost caused the camshaft to slightly grind into the cam journal. We had to go back to OEM tension just to correct the problem. You show me a Gates blue that can do that.

When we later compared TODA to OEM, GReddy, Gates (when it was finally released in 2002) and HKS, (Yes, they actually made timing belts for B-series also), we found that the Toda belt had a full running thread in the center of the belt. Turns out it was a STEEL RADIAL THREAD, similar to a tyre... which is why it never slacked.. (at least from what we surmised). Turns out HKS had the same feature, with GReddy having a smaller radial.

Its terms like "learn me" that keep me from answering these questions with any more depth. C'mon.. I won't even get into the grammar of this. (With younger generations with self-correct, who's to care anyway? ).. But I'm deflecting here.

Suffice it to say that Hundreds of thousands of people (Heh, I wouldn't go that far, as also the same people that are :

1) too cheap to get the better belts in the first place for the majority of their "baller-on-a-budget" builds to even consider one unless they were concerned that the rest of the community would label them "fanboys" and continue to get chastised, and

2) are individuals that are so concerned with squeezing every ounce of power in their setup that they completely disregard any use of power steering for what they want, and therefore focus on a complicated procedure like the use of an aftermarket tensioner to show they are "Much more race car than you".

For the rest that don't fit into 1 & 2, honestly, it may be simply that they don't KNOW about them, because they don't try to sell themselves like many aftermarket companies of today both in the U.S, and Japan.... They just make what it does, and it works. If you're not in the know, they consider that your problem and not theirs.. I know.. its a rather aristocratic and arrogant way of thinking; but from a company that does more Formula engine building for teams more than the public that has been around since 1974 and still makes parts for Ferrari, well, I can't say I really blame them. Arrogant or not, they seem to work from my experience... And I've tried a lot of other parts, believe me.........or don't, it's entirely up to you.

It's like using a fancy cast to heal a leg that was severely broken, when it would garner more positive results to the patient if the doctor just got the procedure right in the first place by going in with titanium pins to set the leg properly. One procedure is much more expensive at first flush, but gets the better LONG TERM result.

I'm not trying to blow smoke up anyone's *** here, and I'm not pretending to be a timing belt analyst with a degree in Engineering with a concentration in composites. If I were, I'd be working at BASF, and not answering this stuff on a webforum where its all about cost.

But from my experience, and those I've been around for a LONG time in this Honda game, hundreds of thousands of people or not, TODA RACING makes very limited stuff for a higher end initial cost.

Just for the sake of this response, would you consider, that the higher cost compared to the Gates isn't just because of "the name" as everyone likes to pigeon-hole on these forums? And that it just for once might be some other engineering outside of it?

Gates will always be around, and has been in both A1 aftermarket and performance aftermarket alike for 20 years. They fill a gap in the aftermarket for belts.... But describing exactly the differences between TODA and Gates "blue" and why the TODA is MOUNTAINS better than the Gates is a lot like comparing Whiskey.. Such as the difference between Single malt-scotch whiskey (OBAN) and Jack Daniels... Both give you a buzz and both are alcohol-based products that are in the whiskey/bourbon class.. That single-malt version that you see is much more expensive than the Jack Daniels. But when you sip that Single-Malt after drinking Jack Daniels for years, you'll see what makes a difference and you taste where that extra money went.

But you have to taste both first.

So, in essence, even though I got love for you like a play-cousin, you are being difficult. You're trying to force me to teach you as to how much better one product is over the other by typing, getting quotes and testimonials from god knows what sources that don't talk about this stuff at length, then, with a straight face, attempt to argue about how I'm wrong about it, when you've never tasted it.. Do that.. then get back to me, and we can discuss it further ok?

No hard feelings at all, but you all have to give old people a ******' break once in a while and quit with the 3rd degree interrogations as though people are the 1st suspect picked up on an episode of Law & Order.

ONE!

93egSLEEPER

Lol, learn me was a joke. I am an educated person, not a kid.

I wasn't looking for a full on product break down, I just wanted some explanation as to your finding in "real world" experiences. I don;t like blanket statements, especially Some of us do not have years and years under our belts (no pun intended) to see what makes all these products differ. I am in no way trying to challenge you, rather educate myself from someone with FIRST HAND knowledge, not what they read on the internet as you referenced. Do I think the TODA belt is better? SUre, for that price it better be. Do I know WHY it is better and WHY I should consider it when Gates have served me VERY well over the years? NO which is why I asked you to elaborate on the topic. I did the dirty work I think everyone else was afraid to do. People are too afraid of getting criticized for asking questions when it is a fact of life you can't learn anything with questions and research. Period. If we all knew everything we wouldn't go to school/college/work, there wouldn't be a forum for help and spreading knowledge, and quite frankly this world would be boring and full of more know it all douches. I'm a questions asker and learner. Not someone just trying to be difficult. Feel free to ignore my questions in the future, but just know I do it for the right reason, I'm not looking for a spoon.

OneBadTurboCRV

****... now I am going to have to buy a TODA belt and cut it in half... WTF you have to be digging in my pockets for Shodan?

I have cut multiple Gates Blue Racing belts in half for inspection. I personally never considered buying a GReddy or TODA belt since the cost is more than double AND I change my belts way too often. I can be one of those "may as well while I am in there" type of people. I HATE used parts LOL! Personally have never had a timing belt failure with a Gates Racing belt.

Now if I could only remember what this thread was about in the first place...

wunfstgsr

This haha!,


Shodan thanks for your input! your always full of knowledge!

The only reason i considered this tentioner is because i researched on belts/engines that had the same issue and it pointed me toward bigger cams being the culprit in most cases in which they corrected the issue using this Tentioner to prevent the belt from flapping and potentially skipping a tooth or two. I never read anything about the quality of the belt being the issue but more from bigger duration cams being used. But I'm not going to dismiss the idea, I guess imo using the tentioner would be less $ and less work than replacing the belt with a high end belt like the Toda in my situation if that would be the case.


I notice the flapping happens when the throttle is let off and the engine revs down, the belt will start to flap a little on the ex. cam gear side. Everything seems perfect as far as timing belt slack and tension/deflection.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Haha.. No worries.. I'm glad you asked.. I just sometimes am not sure if an answer can simply be topped up to satisfy the inquisitive

wunfstgsr

Any pics of your tentioner installed? do you have your timing cover on?

wunfstgsr

So i found this guy who makes replacment parts like the tentioner and brackets for the B series JRSC kit and he sells this B series Timing belt tentioner. Im curiouse if it is made well?... It looks like it just might be able to be used with both power stearing and A.C. Its sleak desighn would fit perfect behing the P.S bracket and looks like it wouldnt interfere.





http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-B-Series-Timing-Belt-Tensioner-/141600364910?hash=item20f80a196e

bspeed

Been eyeballing that same piece myself. It really all depends on the quality of the bearing and wheel. We don't have to add much if any tension to keep the flapping away, just to eliminate that wide area of unsupported belt.

OneBadTurboCRV

That pulley looks like a normal idler pully you would find in a serpentine belt system.

I can only speak for the ENDYN unit as that's all I have experience with, but it's SUPER heavy for what it is and the bracket for the head feels severely underrated (very light). If I had to make a quick comparison, the pulley on the ENDYN kit is more similar to the stock Honda timing belt tensioner pulley.

While I was ordering the tensioner (since you have to call ) Larry told me that it only needs 0.010" deflection or so. So yes, minimal contact at best, but that doesn't mean it's not spinning at the same rate. Then there is always the debate on how far away the supplemental tensioner should be from the cam gear. This is where personal preference comes in for different brands with different install points. I chose ENDYN because of my requirements.

I can't remember if I have pictures or not of the installed setup on my computer, but if I don't I will try and take some to share. I will say the ENDYN tensioner I received almost looked used right out of the box... pretty sure I have pictures of that.

93egSLEEPER

Pics of mine installed

wunfstgsr

I just might send the seller a few questions if he has any pics of it installed and if its power steering and A.C compatible.



Im sure the wheal is good enough if the same ones are used for the supercharger brackets he makes. Yes i would imagine in my case i just need to add a slight tension to stop the flapping not much at all. My issue is The endyne pulley looks like it would work with power steering its just the bracket is so fat I'm not sure if i can sandwich the power starring bracket over that and the K tuned surely can't be used with power steering and A.C on. As well as the other brands on the market. I researched for some time and can't find anyone who has used these tentioners successfully with power steering and A.C.

And also my Supercharger kit uses the A.C bracket for one of its support brackets (check the pic above) as well as uses the A.C idle pulley thats mounted to the a.C bracket to tension the supercharger belt so i can't eliminate the a.C bracket.