Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
10-31-2014, 02:26 AM
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Skunk2 pro 2+ cams - too big for b18c?
have a b18c7 (11:1 compression) with the usual intake and exhaust mods.
Looking to make power to 9000rpm, for mostly track use
will the 2+ be too big?
Looking to make power to 9000rpm, for mostly track use
will the 2+ be too big?
Last edited by Lonewolf1983; 10-31-2014 at 04:01 AM.
10-31-2014, 07:14 AM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
There is A LOT more to making power to 9k than an intake and exhaust and big cams. I personally think there are better options out there for cams for your motor. The pro 2's really like displacement and compression to bring them alive to their potential.
10-31-2014, 07:24 AM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
suggestions for cams then?
I noted that most of the pro2+ builds on here are for b20's, but they also peak power a bit lower so figured they would hold power nicely.
I noted that most of the pro2+ builds on here are for b20's, but they also peak power a bit lower so figured they would hold power nicely.
10-31-2014, 08:08 AM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
My buddy runs the Pro 2+ on his 12.5:1 LSV, but that is FAR from a 87mm 11:1 motor. He peaked out right at 9k and had a useful powerband because of the added compression and displacement. For your motor I like Jun 3's, Tuner 2's, Pro 1's, Buddy Club 3's...something along those sizes
10-31-2014, 08:12 AM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
would like something with bigger than std primaries for the mid range bump over std
maybe the pro1+'s will be the go then
maybe the pro1+'s will be the go then
10-31-2014, 10:21 AM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
Between the 4 cams listed, the Jun and tuner will be good choices. BC3 and Pro1 are a midrange cam, and will not peak at 9K if that's what you're looking for
10-31-2014, 06:48 PM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
tuner's have a small primary so rule that out.
i want midrange + top end, is this what Vtec is all about?
Peak at lower than 9k is fine, as long as it holds flat to around there, basically as much area under the curve between 5-9k is what i'm after
Looking like a toss up between the Pro1+ and the rocket m22xx
i want midrange + top end, is this what Vtec is all about?
Peak at lower than 9k is fine, as long as it holds flat to around there, basically as much area under the curve between 5-9k is what i'm after
Looking like a toss up between the Pro1+ and the rocket m22xx
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10-31-2014, 07:23 PM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
I would go RM 22's for your set up. I personally had them in a ls vtec set up and liked them over the bc 3+ cams
10-31-2014, 10:37 PM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
The M22xx IMO would be better than the Pro 1's... they are basically a tuner 2 with a larger primary and some tweaking...
Derek @ DDTECH may have something up his sleeve for this combo as well
Derek @ DDTECH may have something up his sleeve for this combo as well
10-31-2014, 10:51 PM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
already tried a set of DDtech's as per my build thread (long story lol)
https://honda-tech.com/appearance-bu...k-toy-3220392/
Will have a chat to Rocket about the m22xx's, they sound like they may be suitable
https://honda-tech.com/appearance-bu...k-toy-3220392/
Will have a chat to Rocket about the m22xx's, they sound like they may be suitable
10-31-2014, 11:56 PM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
i believe a guy in NZ runs m22xx for track on his b18c making 157ish KW ...quick estimate that would prolly be 200-205 on the dynapack?
should be something thats worth noting of,
if you have a stock bottom end + bolt ons id think the pro2 might require more etc
short of running a pro2 intake pro1 exh combo
s2s2/pro1/pro2 would be something i could try...
ive had builds covering pro2 / pro3 / endyn / m22KE / m24xx / bloxC;s mostly built b18c's or b20s
and id lean towards m22xx/m22KE or pro1 yes people would say its small..
but then.. most would say its small and have enough runs under their belt for "drag" not your application of roadracing..
i have a b18c dyno from years back il post up to help you figure out your things for your engine
should be something thats worth noting of,
if you have a stock bottom end + bolt ons id think the pro2 might require more etc
short of running a pro2 intake pro1 exh combo
s2s2/pro1/pro2 would be something i could try...
ive had builds covering pro2 / pro3 / endyn / m22KE / m24xx / bloxC;s mostly built b18c's or b20s
and id lean towards m22xx/m22KE or pro1 yes people would say its small..
but then.. most would say its small and have enough runs under their belt for "drag" not your application of roadracing..
i have a b18c dyno from years back il post up to help you figure out your things for your engine
11-01-2014, 12:07 AM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
here's a b18c
stock block
ported head (by me)
stock ITR intake and ITR throttle (62mm)
toda style header w/ 60mm piping (lol i know!) owner wanted torque he says lol
thru a chambered muffler,
thru a mugen intake airbox + filter (no magic intake pipe with vstack etc)
stock compression
this runs a buddyclub spec 3 cam , dyno was stock head vs ported head (both fully tuned on the cam)
intake cam timing is
intake opens @ 25 btdc , intake closes @ 45abdc
valve lift 11.4mm
so for the internet spec' racers
thats
250* dur. @ 0.050" and 0.448" lift
for reference.. pro1 has 255* @ 0.050"
reason for me sharing this is...
had we been given the freedom to run 2,5inch pipe/reso and muffler on the said engine
removed the airbox and ran a decent intake pipe length + filter with stack (like BPstacks)
you'd realize the top end would have breathed longer and extended..
prolly help alot at the midrange too..
which ultimately..would be a superior set-up for roadraces...
drag.. would be a different story
stock block
ported head (by me)
stock ITR intake and ITR throttle (62mm)
toda style header w/ 60mm piping (lol i know!) owner wanted torque he says lol
thru a chambered muffler,
thru a mugen intake airbox + filter (no magic intake pipe with vstack etc)
stock compression
this runs a buddyclub spec 3 cam , dyno was stock head vs ported head (both fully tuned on the cam)
intake cam timing is
intake opens @ 25 btdc , intake closes @ 45abdc
valve lift 11.4mm
so for the internet spec' racers
thats
250* dur. @ 0.050" and 0.448" lift
for reference.. pro1 has 255* @ 0.050"
reason for me sharing this is...
had we been given the freedom to run 2,5inch pipe/reso and muffler on the said engine
removed the airbox and ran a decent intake pipe length + filter with stack (like BPstacks)
you'd realize the top end would have breathed longer and extended..
prolly help alot at the midrange too..
which ultimately..would be a superior set-up for roadraces...
drag.. would be a different story
11-01-2014, 12:42 AM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
graph looks healthy ,
the b18c i posted , made 179whp on stock cams... so a solid 10whp gain LOL going to buddyclub spec3
not suggesting the cams cuz theyre either expensive.. or hard to find..
but it could give you ample ideas.. as far as cam sizing and the things that work..
since your's is an ITR (b18c) its gonna be real similar... even the stock compression
the b18c i posted , made 179whp on stock cams... so a solid 10whp gain LOL going to buddyclub spec3
not suggesting the cams cuz theyre either expensive.. or hard to find..
but it could give you ample ideas.. as far as cam sizing and the things that work..
since your's is an ITR (b18c) its gonna be real similar... even the stock compression
11-01-2014, 01:26 AM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
oh urs is higher AUDM than jdm? cool...
yeah its pretty similar.. although the head gained a bit of volume thru chamber clean up i did.. but recieved a 0.005" mill to compensate.. so it didnt really go up in compression
yeah its pretty similar.. although the head gained a bit of volume thru chamber clean up i did.. but recieved a 0.005" mill to compensate.. so it didnt really go up in compression
11-02-2014, 04:58 PM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
From my experience with 11:1 compression, the Pro2s may be slightly on the big side, they can still be made to work depending on what your combination of parts are. What IM, and header are you using? Stock port ITR head or has it been ported? Your listed cams of Pro1s, Pro2s would be a good start. Rocket Motorsports M22xx would be another option or the Rocket Motorsports M22KE would be an option as well as in RMs words, "they are like Toda Bs but better"
Now going on to trying to help u figure out your current cam situation with the DDTech cams, it looks like most people has had good results with DDTech cams. I've quoted these details from your build thread so we can dissect what the potential prob might be and save u some money. Questions are in bold:
So, time for an update...
Firstly want to point out, this post is not a shot at DDtech - he has tried to be very helpful with information and offered to help out with the cams, but heres the story.
I purchased a set of 2nd hand (but unused) DDtech stage2 cams from a member here, and they came with a cam card for degreeing.
I gave all this to my mechanic, and when they installed them they were noticing some strange behaviour with the exhaust cam, in that the specs they were measuring were far off the cam card.
What was the weird behavior that you guys were seeing with the exhaust cam? What did the cam card call out for specs and what did you guys measure? opening and closing at 1mm numbers or at .050" numbers? Details would help the members understand and potentially give better input to you.
After trying both methods of cam measurement, this was still the case.
Spoke to DDtech, who then sent through a 2nd cam card (yes, 2nd card for same set of cams...) - these settings unfortunately also didnt match up.
[b]What differences were found with this second cam card?[\b]
In the end we set them to what DDtech said to, and got it towed off to the dyno, as the car would barely idle let alone drive.
Tuner got the car on the dyno and it ended up making ~30hp less on vtec than the factory cams.
So you made 30whp less with the DDTech cams compared to the factory ITR cams? If so, something is probably wrong. Do you have a dyno plot overlaying the 2 graphs? The difference in the graph will help us see where the issue lies. Otherwise, without details it's hard to pinpoint the problem.
Started playing with cam gears, advancing the intake didnt do much (this was dialled in during installation and was ok).
Started advancing the exhaust and power started to come back up.
In the end, we ran out of adjustment on the cam gears - 8+ degrees and we ended up with 10hp less than the factory ITR cams.
DDtech believes that they may need more advance, and admitted that there were some issues with his grinds from when the cam was made (i suspect the offset is just too much for me to get adjusted out)
Unfortunately for me, as I need to pay a mechanic, tow truck and a tuner at high costs to continue to troubleshoot them, and have no real base degreeing settings to work from its just not viable to continue with these cams.
I'll be pulling them out and replacing them with a more proven design from another manufacturer and trying again.
This isnt to say that DDtech's newer ground cams arent good - they may well be, but with the money lost so far I cant take another guess and need something that will just work.
sounds like the exhaust cam is probably too retarded then if you guys were picking up power by advancing it. The valves were probably opening to late on the exhaust stroke so the intake charge may not have been able to fill the cylinders with as much fresh air as the spent gases didn't have the chance to fully evacuate the cylinders due to the late opening/closing events of the cams.
If you've already made up your mind on going with a different brand of cams then that is fine. If you would like to see if the DDTech cams can be made to work then the details of the build, cams etc will help us help you.
Now going on to trying to help u figure out your current cam situation with the DDTech cams, it looks like most people has had good results with DDTech cams. I've quoted these details from your build thread so we can dissect what the potential prob might be and save u some money. Questions are in bold:
So, time for an update...
Firstly want to point out, this post is not a shot at DDtech - he has tried to be very helpful with information and offered to help out with the cams, but heres the story.
I purchased a set of 2nd hand (but unused) DDtech stage2 cams from a member here, and they came with a cam card for degreeing.
I gave all this to my mechanic, and when they installed them they were noticing some strange behaviour with the exhaust cam, in that the specs they were measuring were far off the cam card.
What was the weird behavior that you guys were seeing with the exhaust cam? What did the cam card call out for specs and what did you guys measure? opening and closing at 1mm numbers or at .050" numbers? Details would help the members understand and potentially give better input to you.
After trying both methods of cam measurement, this was still the case.
Spoke to DDtech, who then sent through a 2nd cam card (yes, 2nd card for same set of cams...) - these settings unfortunately also didnt match up.
[b]What differences were found with this second cam card?[\b]
In the end we set them to what DDtech said to, and got it towed off to the dyno, as the car would barely idle let alone drive.
Tuner got the car on the dyno and it ended up making ~30hp less on vtec than the factory cams.
So you made 30whp less with the DDTech cams compared to the factory ITR cams? If so, something is probably wrong. Do you have a dyno plot overlaying the 2 graphs? The difference in the graph will help us see where the issue lies. Otherwise, without details it's hard to pinpoint the problem.
Started playing with cam gears, advancing the intake didnt do much (this was dialled in during installation and was ok).
Started advancing the exhaust and power started to come back up.
In the end, we ran out of adjustment on the cam gears - 8+ degrees and we ended up with 10hp less than the factory ITR cams.
DDtech believes that they may need more advance, and admitted that there were some issues with his grinds from when the cam was made (i suspect the offset is just too much for me to get adjusted out)
Unfortunately for me, as I need to pay a mechanic, tow truck and a tuner at high costs to continue to troubleshoot them, and have no real base degreeing settings to work from its just not viable to continue with these cams.
I'll be pulling them out and replacing them with a more proven design from another manufacturer and trying again.
This isnt to say that DDtech's newer ground cams arent good - they may well be, but with the money lost so far I cant take another guess and need something that will just work.
sounds like the exhaust cam is probably too retarded then if you guys were picking up power by advancing it. The valves were probably opening to late on the exhaust stroke so the intake charge may not have been able to fill the cylinders with as much fresh air as the spent gases didn't have the chance to fully evacuate the cylinders due to the late opening/closing events of the cams.
11-02-2014, 10:16 PM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
I spoke with RM and they recommended the M22xx - should hold power better up top than the KE.
Stock ITR head and intake manifold - eventually i'll look at the manifold (likely ultra street or the modified edelbrock i've seen on here)
Header is a mugen 4>2>1 with 2.5" straight through exhaust
Re the DDtechs
There were 2 different cam cards given to me, neither were anywhere near the specs when measured by both the lift, and centerline method.
Specs measured i'd need to dig through what my installer gave me, when i pickup the car.
As they were dropped in to the specs given by DDtech (again not on the cam card but verbally when we noted issues), yes 30hp down.
When advanced to maximum available on the skunk2 gears it ended up 10hp down on factory ITR cams.
I will be getting a graph when i collect the car and will share.
My installer did mention we could look to skip a tooth to get more advance, but then it becomes harder to know what sort of clearances we have, and the labour cost to me getting this done vs installing a whole new set of cams isnt that different.
Stock ITR head and intake manifold - eventually i'll look at the manifold (likely ultra street or the modified edelbrock i've seen on here)
Header is a mugen 4>2>1 with 2.5" straight through exhaust
Re the DDtechs
There were 2 different cam cards given to me, neither were anywhere near the specs when measured by both the lift, and centerline method.
Specs measured i'd need to dig through what my installer gave me, when i pickup the car.
As they were dropped in to the specs given by DDtech (again not on the cam card but verbally when we noted issues), yes 30hp down.
When advanced to maximum available on the skunk2 gears it ended up 10hp down on factory ITR cams.
I will be getting a graph when i collect the car and will share.
My installer did mention we could look to skip a tooth to get more advance, but then it becomes harder to know what sort of clearances we have, and the labour cost to me getting this done vs installing a whole new set of cams isnt that different.
11-02-2014, 10:21 PM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
Its always a tough situation when cams are bought 2nd hand. Did they happen to be from a member on HT? are the cams marked with DDTECH's logo?
11-02-2014, 10:41 PM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
ok well regardless, sorry it didnt work out for you. you're in good hands with RM, and the M22XX is will definitely give you the mid + top that youre looking for.
11-03-2014, 03:53 AM
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Re: Skunk2 pro 1/2+ cams - too big for b18c?
I spoke with RM and they recommended the M22xx - should hold power better up top than the KE.
Stock ITR head and intake manifold - eventually i'll look at the manifold (likely ultra street or the modified edelbrock i've seen on here)
Header is a mugen 4>2>1 with 2.5" straight through exhaust
Re the DDtechs
There were 2 different cam cards given to me, neither were anywhere near the specs when measured by both the lift, and centerline method.
Specs measured i'd need to dig through what my installer gave me, when i pickup the car.
As they were dropped in to the specs given by DDtech (again not on the cam card but verbally when we noted issues), yes 30hp down.
When advanced to maximum available on the skunk2 gears it ended up 10hp down on factory ITR cams.
I will be getting a graph when i collect the car and will share.
My installer did mention we could look to skip a tooth to get more advance, but then it becomes harder to know what sort of clearances we have, and the labour cost to me getting this done vs installing a whole new set of cams isnt that different.
Stock ITR head and intake manifold - eventually i'll look at the manifold (likely ultra street or the modified edelbrock i've seen on here)
Header is a mugen 4>2>1 with 2.5" straight through exhaust
Re the DDtechs
There were 2 different cam cards given to me, neither were anywhere near the specs when measured by both the lift, and centerline method.
Specs measured i'd need to dig through what my installer gave me, when i pickup the car.
As they were dropped in to the specs given by DDtech (again not on the cam card but verbally when we noted issues), yes 30hp down.
When advanced to maximum available on the skunk2 gears it ended up 10hp down on factory ITR cams.
I will be getting a graph when i collect the car and will share.
My installer did mention we could look to skip a tooth to get more advance, but then it becomes harder to know what sort of clearances we have, and the labour cost to me getting this done vs installing a whole new set of cams isnt that different.
I agree with your installer, a lot of work to do just to see if it'll work. The M22xx will be a drop in cam and require minimal adjustment for power. You will still have to measure/know your clearances but they require little to no movement for power.
I don't know if the changing from the ITR IM to the Ultra Street will gain much if any. So that would probably be one of the last things that you can worry about once you get your cam situation figured out.
Good luck and keep us posted!