93grayeg

iTrader: (1)

I have a 92 Gsr , B17. Car has Thermal exhaust, Aem Intake, Otherwise stock. Would I see any Gains from putting on a Sk2 Throttle body and a Blox intake Manifold? I was considering cams also but not sure yet. Any help would be great.

Dc4LsTeG

iTrader: (7)

Are you gonna get it tuned?

93grayeg

iTrader: (1)

I was planning on it

95skunkedgsr

i would get it tuned my bolt on gsr with sri,bpi,sunk2 mani, 68mm tbody, hytech rep header straight pipe to skunk2 exh. felt like the ecu was pulling timing cause of it gettin to lean in the upper rpms

peter_b16

Dont do it!!gonna give ya too much powaa!!

93grayeg

iTrader: (1)

lol

Mr. EG

You won't see massive gains, but if tuned afterwards you will yield a bit more power. It does flow better than your stock manifold.

93grayeg

iTrader: (1)

Thanks man that's what I wanted to know. I also wanna throw on a nice header but I dont feel like putting on a set of traction bars...or getting rid of my a/c

fungus mungus

And why would an IM and TB change to an otherwise stock B17 necessitate traction bars? All they do is help prevent wheel hop on launches...something many fwd cars (particularly those w/ worn motor mounts) have problems with, stock or modified. If you're launching this car a lot, I'd get them regardless of any upgrades you make. Even stock D series setups can bust axles because of wheel hop.

As for a decent header, there are good headers that can be installed that are AC friendly...I have a DTR that fits w/AC. I think the insanely-expensive Toda is also AC friendly. If you haven't upgraded your cams yet, a giant header won't help you as your motor isn't pushing enough air to require it.

fm

93grayeg

iTrader: (1)

I was stating that The DA Chassis need's a traction bar for the decent header to clear, It would be kind of pointless putting a Im, TB, Cams and so on without upgrading the Header

00Red_SiR

You will lose power swapping from your stock manifold to that intake. Even if you were running larger cams, you typically don't see any gains from a manifold swap until above 7000 rpm on the B16/17's.

93grayeg

iTrader: (1)

I see , well The motor is a stock b17, Thermal Exhaust, Aem intake, otherwise bone stock. What would you reccomend to squeeze some power out of it?

00Red_SiR

Cams. ITR/CTR if you want to keep the stock ecu, skunk tuner 1's if you want to get a tuning system and make some more power.

93grayeg

iTrader: (1)

So just cams? No header, no tb, no im?

00Red_SiR

Cams. A header if you have money left over for a toda replica, use the stock Tb and IM.

fungus mungus

I guess I just don't know the DA chassis...so are you saying that the stock DA chassis has traction bars and in order to run a header, you'll have to swap them out for an aftermarket traction bar to clear?

fm

93grayeg

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, The DA Chassis will not allow a big header with the factory cross member, So you would have to upgrade to a set of traction bars in order for a header to clear.

Dc4LsTeG

iTrader: (7)

Or you could just cut the cross member out for the header to fit

cubminican7

imo if u upgrade the intake side if the motor u should do the exhaust side . so if u do the im and tb i would put a good set of headers cuz if ur getting more air in u wanna get that extra air out just as quick. Even a type r mani shoud give better air flow have you checked those out??

00Red_SiR

What if the stock manifold already flows enough for the current setup what then? At what point does increasing flow become detrimental to making power? Does increasing "flow" always increase power production? How restrictive is the stock header? Is that the biggest bottleneck/problem with the stock exhaust?

Lots of opinions....let's see some thinking.

fungus mungus

I see...OK, that makes sense. If you want to install a bigger header, than that's what you'll have to do, I guess. I wouldn't cut your cross member to make a header fit.

Originally Posted by 00Red_SIR
I touched on this in my first posting when I said that a big header isn't going to help if the car doesn't need to push a lot of air. If it has stock cams or if it has stock compression, it's not going to benefit much from a big header, a change in IM, intakes, or even a head port job.

Once you put in more aggressive cams, your motor will want to pull/push more air...then the better-flowing IM, intake, and header will benefit you.

Take my case:

When I purchased my B18C1 swap, I had to return it to stock for BAR. It had a JG ported head, stock cams, stock IM, stock air box, and stock exhaust manifold, going through a WS2 60mm exhaust. Even with the ported head, it put down exactly what a stock motor would put down...about 143 whp. Even if I had put in a S2 Pro IM, I might have seen only have seen a few whp difference, if that. The engine simply didn't need to breath more with that setup.

Fast forward 3 months and a BAR sticker later:

Skunk2 Stage 2 cams, a JDM 4-1 header (not the best, but that's what I had), a Skunk2 IM, BBK 70mm TB, and a Comptech intake w/Icebox went in. It put down 173 whp. With a few more mods (a DTR header, 3" bullet cat, and a little more tuning), I put down 198 whp. But the VTEC crossover was set high...6700 rpm or so. I came to find out later that my 60mm exhaust was killing me. I never addressed the exhaust issue on that setup because I ended up rebuilding the bottom end to 84.5x89mm and then going with a 3" exhaust.

fm

00Red_SiR

People often assume that the stock components are already maxed out or not able to handle more than a stock combination of parts without being "maxed out". This isn't the case in a lot of Honda parts. You have to look at the entire system and see where the bottlenecks are in sequence. The first bottle neck in most Honda's is the Catylitic convertor. You can bolt on a header or nice cat back system but unless you swap out the convertor with something larger/higher flowing, you're not going to see much in the way of gains. When it comes to any part, more flow isn't always better and the stock intake manifolds are good examples of that. Take a b16/17 and go from a p30 intake to a skunk 2 or something, it will out flow the stock manifold but actually make less power until 7k and up. That's great if you only drag race the car but if you mainly stret drive it, you're sacrificing most of your power band for more power between 7-8.5k. A Victor X will out flow many intake manifolds but loses power on all but the larger higher output builds, especially compared to a stok manifold.

Stock heads flow quite well as they are and do not become a bottle neck until much higher power levels are achieved. Your car probably didn't make any more than stock with a ported head and all the other stock components for a couple reasons: the stock head wasn't restrictive at that level to begin with and as much as people like pretty looking ports, the real power comes from the valvejob until you really get into higher end builds making big power where port shape will play a larger role.

TB size is more important when considering the manifold it's being used on, meaning you typically find a small plenum/large TB combo will work well together as will a larger plenum/smaller TB combination. Most stock header manifolds will flow quite well as they are and it's not until you get into some of the custom designs, that you'll make more power but again, it's usually past 7k.

The size and weight of the wheels you run on a car will often have a larger impact on power than a lot of the bolt on parts available until you get into a serious build. Modifying a car has to be done in logical steps or you end up bolting on parts for the wrong reasons and then wonder why the car is underperforming.

fungus mungus

^ You're confirming what I was saying in my previous post. To be clear, I didn't have my head ported and bolt on a bunch of stock parts and scratch my head wondering why I was making the same kind of power as a stock motor. I knew that would happen...I needed things to behave like stock so that I could get the car to pass BAR.

After I got the car BAR'd, I didn't just bolt on an intake manifold and expect an 8 whp gain...I put in cams as well and a better header as well. Yes, I kept stock cat that first round, but dropped it the second round when I was forced to by the long-tube DTR header.

You bring up a good point about wheel size. I can also attest that wheel size (in my case, tire size) will affect your power output on a dyno. I dropped a few whp when I went from 195/50/15s to 205/50/15s. What gear you do your pull in will also affect your power output (a 3rd gear pull yielded about 5 whp less than a 4th gear pull).

But let's not derail this thread by analysing my build...I believe we're making the same point. Putting bunch of bolt-ons (IM, header, intake) on a stock motor will not result in a miracle. You will see some gains, but not nearly enough to justify the costs. It's not until after you switch to more aggressive cams that bolt-ons like an IM or a header will truly show results.

fm

93grayeg

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the helpful information, I guess im gunna go with a set of cams and maybe a high flow cat or something, Would the blox cams be about the same as the Skunk2? Also is it going to be as simple and dropping the cams in? I dont need to upgrade anything else in the head? Thanks

00Red_SiR

I was just using your illustration as an examply of why no gains would be seen if a certain part was modified when it wasn't a restriction at that point. On a Dynojet, a 3rd or 4th gear pull won't make a difference on power output based on the way they calculate power. Using 4th gear will typically give you a longer "sample" time which is good for tuning. I'm not sure about other dyno's and gearing but I don't believe it should be a factor based on the way that they usually calculate power.

The Blox cams are copies of many Skunk cams so it would depend on what model you went with. The valvetrain question is easily answered by the cam requirements and will usually say. That being said, your GSR is a 92 I believe you said, which would make it's valvetrain 20 years old at this point and I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice an engine, to save a couple hunderd dollars on new valvesprings. Depending on the cams you get, some may more or less be drop in, others will require a tuning system like Hondata or Neptune etc, to get the most out of them on any cams larger than ITR/CTR.