Curlybandit

Hey everyone.

Last night I had a chance to finally get my P29 d16z6 build dyno tuned. You can see the details of the build here on the d-series.org forum website.

The tuning was done on a Dyno Dynamics dynamometer which, based on my research, is understood to produce numbers that are anywhere from 13-18% less than the more commonly used DynoJet, and even less than the Mustang Dyno.

When the motor was installed we ran a program on the ECU for the break-in. It was essentially a GSR program with slight modifications. It ran rich. Very rich... The ECU is tuned on Crome and I'm using 94 octane pump gas. The fuel cut-off is set to 7200RPM since I'm using stock springs and retainers. I don't want to risk valve float...

Unfortunately, my friend/tuner had broken the jumper cable necessary to do real-time tuning and therefore we had to repeatedly remove the chip and make the necessary air/fuel adjustments on the laptop based on the readings in the dyno computer. This was tedious and time consuming. We were unable to isolate a few cells that caused some dips in the readings but we were able to get some pretty good numbers regardless. This just means there's room for improvement when we get a new jumper.

The first video is the second baseline pull. You can see on the screen the first reading was at 108.5WHP and the second was 116.5WHP after a small tweak.

The second video is the best pull of the day. We made just over 129WHP.

After two hours of runs and trying to make the necessary adjustments without real-time data, this is the best we could do. To satisfy my ego, I calculated what the motor may have made on a DynoJet by adding 15% since the Dyno Dynamics machines read conservatively - it would have made around 148WHP. I may take it to a place with a DynoJet to do a few pulls and get a comparison.

I don't have any printouts yet for those of you who would like to see the air/fuel mixtures, HP and TRQ curves. I've asked to have them emailed to me.

Here are the motor details of you don't want to check out rhe link above:

Exhaust:
- Megan Racing 4-2-1 header
- Magnaflow high-flow catalytic converter
- Tanabe Medalion 2.25" exhaust

d16z6 block:
- resurfaced 0.004", rebuilt: Top Line gasket kit
- bored to 75.5mm
- P29 pistons (Nippon Racing) - 75.5mm
- NPR piston rings
- ACL race bearings
- ARP rod bolts
- crank journals resurfaced
- Innovative Mounts AT-MT passenger side mount 60A (red) Polyurethane
- Innovative Mounts rear side mount 75A (black) Polyurethane
- Innovative Mounts driver's side mount 75A (black) Polyurethane
- 11.4lbs Competition Clutch flywheel
- miscellaneous parts (i.e. water pump, belts, etc) all Honda OEM

d16z6 head:
- resurfaced 0.004"
- Bisimoto level 2 camshaft
- AEM Tru-Time camshaft gear
- ARP head studs
- Nippon Racing 75.5mm MLS head gasket
- NGK Iridium IX (BKR7EIX)
- d16y8 intake manifold - ported to 60mm and polished inlet and runner outlets
- 56mm d16z6 throttle body with KMS FITV block-off plate
- generic short-ram intake

Miscellaneous:
- Mishimoto aluminum radiator
- Fuel pressure gauge
- chipped P06 tuned on Crome

joakwin

Nice numbers

I have almost the same build as you

Bisi lvl2 cam/springs keepers
P29 pistons
Ported head
S300/p28
Itb's with stock 240 cc injectors
4-2-1 header with 2.5 collector
Stock flywheel
I made 145whp on 87octane
Engine was running a little lean, my injectors are close to max
Aem wideband

I have some rdx injectors and will retune with some 91 octane
Or higher if I can find it
Now I have a better fuel regulator and have up the pressure to 60psi
And the afr is better

93egSLEEPER

I HIGHLY doubt you're maxing out stock injectors @ 145whp. Sorry. Tune just needs some touching up. Not being an ***, just trying to be realistic. Stock injectors on stock FPR will support 200whp. Unless that's the stingiest dyno, ever.

I'm not an advocate or fan of D series builds. At all. But good work man I'm sure its a blast to drive over the stock unit. Thats pretty darn good power for a stock head and moderate compression D series. You'll have an itch for more, I guarantee it. One word. Nitrous.

StreetLethaleg6

agreed....altho I have a special place in my heart for SOHCs lol

edit: if you do go nitrous, you're def going to need larger injectors and obviously a re-tune.

joakwin

Ok, every tune could always use some type of work, but I would like to see the test you speak of, you know the stock injectors on stock frp supporting 200whp, not trying to be an *** but show me, educate me on this you speak of with some real data

don't go quoting every other Honda forum on me, you calling me out on what I wrote, now I'm asking for the supporting info you speak of

And it could be the most stingiest dyno ever, you never know because I never said what machine it was tested on

But you are right, I do like the power my engine makes, coupled with a 1500 pound car, it's fun to drive

93egSLEEPER

I had a feeling you would get offended when I was just trying to add some facts to your post. Typical. Everyone gets their panties in a bunch so quick with a little constructive criticism. FYI it says right in your youtube video it's being tuned on a dyno dynamics

LOL I have nothing to prove or show you. It's common knowledge stock injectors and FPR support 200whp +/- 10% depending on dyno. People will back me on that as well. Injectors just don't change the amount of power they support over night. I've been around the block a day or two....don't trip.

The ONLY exception is if you have the SMALL 190cc d-series injectors which will SHOULD still support what you built, just run at a higher duty cycle. I can't speak for you, I didn't built the motor, nor can I see the injectors.

Would a set of RDX injectors free up some power and tune a little better? Of course. I HIGHLY recommend them on all motors. I love mine.

Do your own research, don't try to make me look bad to do it for you

I wanna know how you got your Del Sol to weigh 1500 pounds

joakwin

common knowledge on Honda forums, ok
here's some common knowledge for you
stickers add 5-10 hp per sticker, the bigger they are the more they add
and putting wings on the back of your fwd daily driver car adds down force in the rear, the more levels to the wing the more the force
should I quote fast one movie now also, that movie has a lot of common knowledge in it, must be true...it was on a movie.....

I don't have a you tube video or a del sol
ive been around a different block, my blocks are world wide, so don't trip...

you can input your little constructive criticism all you want, but your just quoting every other Honda forum, I bet I could google the stock injectors/frp thing and find 10 pages plus on google or yahoo or whatever you like to search the net with
common is not so common and I don't know the people you speak of
I do my own research but you opened the door to that, since we are from different blocks, maybe just maybe you do something different on your block besides quoting
and besides that, I done with you because even if you wanted you probably couldn't prove or show me anything or else I would have wrote "thank you" for the stock injector/frp data in this post and not giving you a hard time

StreetLethaleg6

Truth. and there is no way on god's beautiful green earth that del sol nor any on earth weigh anywhere remotely close to 1,500lbs LOL. Contrary to popular belief del sols are actually pretty heavy in the Honda world. Example: my 95 civic cx hatchback is gutted to the max pretty much without any cutting nor lexan yet: cf hood, cf hatch (race one without the secondary taillights), 2 front seats (sparco torino driver and stock passenger), completely gutted with the exception of front and rear bumper supports, full glass as well and it weighs 1950 without me in it. The most extreme weight reduction on a civic I ever seen is a certain eg hatch that is stripped and cut completely to the max with no glass at all even the front windshield and it was 1,570lbs without driver.....and when i say cut i mean to the absolute max, very unsafe.....keep it mind its not daily not street car, just a street raced drag car.

B20VtecVillain

Who is this guy? 240cc injectors will easily support more than 145whp. You do realize these are the same size injectors in a Bseries right, some of which make your power level from the factory so saying they are maxed out at 145whp is just dumb. Also, how exactly did you get your 1500# weight figure? Del Sols may look light but it's very deceiving as there are lots of structural stability additions made that add up to a hefty weight. I think you need to re look at your information before trying to jump down people's throats for saying things that make more sense than anything you are.

JRCivic1

joakwin

From a tuning standpoint, there are many legitimate reasons why you may be reaching the limits of your fuel injectors at your current HP level besides injector size. Fuel pump size and effectiveness coupled with feed and return line size play a part in delivering the proper fuel volume... and your fuel pressure regulator (FPR) must maintain pressure during wide open throttle operation.

Even though your tuner stated that you are "maxing" out your fuel injectors, this doesn't mean that more HP can be had with a larger size. What it does mean is that 100% injector duty cycle at any given RPM creates a situation where the engine computer cannot ADD any additional fuel at that time for necessary corrective changes such as denser or cooler air when compared to the day and conditions in which the engine was tuned. This can cause a lean condition under full throttle operation, and that can be potentially dangerous. If the tuner witnessed an uncontrollable lean condition during full throttle testing on the dyno, causing a lean condition beyond that point in the pull, he should have warned you of such an event and either set a lower than expected redline or verbally warned you to keep the engine revs below a certain point.

It is my experience that the limits of the stock 240cc injectors on a N/A engine typically comes around the 190 wheel HP mark with a proper sized fuel pump... 165-175 wheel HP using a stock fuel pump depending on the chassis when measured on my Dyno Jet.

Oh, and for the record... MY "Block" = 20 years of building Honda/Acura performance engines and vehicles exclusively and I have personally tuned over 3500 H/A vehicles on dyno.

As a side note, I couldn't help looking over your list of parts and mods... and although I disagree with the above post by 93egSLEEPER that a larger set of injectors would make more HP for sure in your case, (although if your current fuel system is in fact leaning out at the RPM which you make peak HP... some gains could be realized), I couldn't help but notice the GLARING error in your fueling solution: The octane of your fuel. Why would you ever even consider using 87 octane fuel in an engine with a static compression of somewhere between 12.0 and 12.5:1 ??? Premium Unleaded will allow you to run more ignition timing, which will make more HP, that is unless your timing is too high for 87 octane now, but audible knock/detonation would almost certainly be present if this was the case.

All vehicles sold in the US since the early 90's with a static compression at or greater than 10:1 warn the owner/operator to use "Premium Unleaded Fuel Only" either on the instrument cluster or inside the gas filler door... or both. So why would you ever use LESS ???

B20VtecVillain

hey man don't correct him on proper octane. He'll tell you that if you don't have proof, 87 octane is all you need up to 400hp

GhostAccord

Here are a few formulas.

Target Hp x Brake Specific Fuel Consumption or B.S.F.C (Using a B.S.F.C of 0.45 - 0.5 is the average for an NA engine. 0.55 - 0.65 FI.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of injectors x Duty Cycle

So in the case of this engine it would look kind of like this

150 hp x .50
------------
4 x .80

75 / 3.2 = 23.4375 lbs/hr

For cc/min take the 23.4375 x 10.5 = 246.1cc/min


So according to these calculations 150 is doable. 200whp would be stretching a set of 240cc on stock duty cycle and fuel pressure.



Here is the calculation if you know your injector flow rate and want to see how much Hp each injector can handle.

Injector size x Duty cycle / B.S.F.C

23lbs x .80 / .50
18.4 / .50
36.8hp / injector

x4 = 147.2hp @ 80% duty cycle


So if you want to hit 200hp @ 80% on stock fuel pressure..... you can now do the math.

joakwin

I know my tune has some issues, that's why I said every tune could always use more work, a project is never done, oh my bad...common knowledge sorry....
Different octanes of fuel just means timing on the tune witch effects the power the engine makes.
I have drove some of my old cars in different locations and some places have bad gas, some have good stuff
Not every location has the same grades of fuel,ie 87 or 89 or some have e10 or e25 or e85 or 95 or 98 ect
My current tune is on a base line 87
Ie I'm not pulling as much timing with that grade of fuel as I could with a 98

I had a 98 tune for my motor but that tune is worth less at my new location because I can't get that fuel
So yeah I have a tune issue, I have to get a retune to what fuel I have in this area
But
i took my shell off the road for a rebuild, it had some rust areas

And before it goes back on the road it will get a retune
And I upgraded the fuel system since the rebuild but I go with those numbers I have on paper until I get a retune
And I never said what the fuel system parts were made up of or if they were stock
I probably should of started out with that up front
I was asking this guy for the data he speaks of because Honda forums are known for quoting someone that heard of someone that said it can be done, yes I was being a asshat but if your going to call someone out, back it up with data if they ask for it Or it's here say
I Know the math and had already worked it out long time ago, 200hp at the crank@43psi w/80% needs 31lb injectors or at 100% it needs 25lb injectors....little low but the frp can be bumped up to make them handle that, but we are talking stock frp
I know my engine makes 175 crank hp and at 43psi with 22.8lb injectors in the mid to high 90 range its making the power
my 145whp at 43psi is in the 90's range
but hey, if you can get 200whp with 240cc and stock frp, then my hat goes off to you

I don't even daily the car so I'm not in a rush to get a retune

I don't own a del sol or never have or never will
But I do have a car with a Honda engine and it does weigh 1500 lbs
Far from us spec car

I don't know where this del sol thing came from
Everyone has a different story to tell about wrench turning and online you never know what the next guy has done

JRCivic1

The OP has a Del Sol in the videos above and I believe some thread responders confused you with the OP... and they didn't pay attention to your subscript in one of your above posts that certainly fits the bill for a 1500 lb. car... "1984 Mini with a D16Z6".

I bet that car is a BLAST to drive.

B20VtecVillain

None of this changes the fact that you shouldn't be "maxing out" 240cc injectors at 145HP unless there is A) clogging or damage to the injectors, B) an issue with the tune causing fueling problems or C) FPR problem that is causing the fueling issue. And I'm not quoting anything from a forum by saying this, it's real world experience because I've had probably half a dozen 170-180 whp stock fuel system B series in the shop and seen with my own eyes what you can do with 240s and a proper tune.

Freemananana

iTrader: (3)

You guys realize you are arguing with someone who isn't the OP, right? The OP had a Del Sol in his video. That is where the confusion is coming from. This guy who posted the first comment on the thread is arguing with everyone else.

Just attempting to straighten this out.

StreetLethaleg6

makes sense now oh well lol